Eagledad

Different Scoutmasters inspire young minds differently. Barry

I use to teach at Scoutmaster Fundamentals that a boys world doesn't rotate around the Scoutmaster. As far as scouts are concerned, most adult's over 40 were probably in the revolutionary war. For an adult to appeal to a boy's eagerness to learn, they must approach the boy in his world. Truth is the vast majority of youth today rarely ever tie a knot, even shoe laces. So when the old-man goes off lecturing practical uses of knots in todays world, all the scouts see is the SM using knots to hook together the old rusty plow to mule for days work in the field. Scouts might get lucky and use the knots while camping, especially is some adult points out good uses for the knots. Tent races with the old cabin tents are good ways of encouraging faster learning. But, cabin tents are getting fewer and harder to find. The value of BSA knots, and many of the first class skills, in this culture is that they help a boy grow in the practice of initiating goals and using frustration or success of completion to encourage more goals and more successes. Knots are ideal at this age because boys rather learn by doing something with their hands then listening to the old-timer tell stories of saddling horses for the Pony Express. Growth is balanced on how the scout feels during the task. It's a fine line between the sense of accomplishment for the correct knot and the sense of frustration from making several integral tedious turns of a rope to find success. Success means setting or initiating another goal, maybe a higher goal. Frustration means building patience in a continued effort so as not to let failure prevail. As a man, he will experience both, so the practice of learning the proper response of performance leads to a lifestyle of maturity to handle both success and failure. Just as important, knots and other first class skills develop the habit of setting goals and initiating small processes to accomplish the larger task. It's not a theory, we watch it in our own troop. Scouts encouraged to set further goals after the success of learning a previous skill became more confident leaders as older scouts compared to our older scouts who transferred from other troops. The difference in confidence to initiate actions to complete goals was striking when compared to scouts that didn't learn their first class skills in our troop. I also attribute it to our large number of Eagles because we do not push for them. Once a scout develops the habits of setting goals and follow through to completion, the requirements toward Eagle happen almost by just showing up. Then there is the adult comments toward scouts creativity. When I trained scoutmasters, I instructed them to resist giving personal opinion. As much as we like to think we treat scouts as equal adults, the scouts always see adults as authoritative. At least until about 16. And when a scout suggest a creative idea to the adult, he is more than likely looking for permission to pursue the idea by the adult words and body language. A young adult is always looking for acceptance by the old adult. So when the SM goes off into a history lesson of why, when and where such an idea may have once had value because in the old days of churning butter, and thusss bla bla bla...., the scout only hears, "sounds stupid to me". I have watched many scouts drop an idea simply because the adult gave an opinion. It is better to practice the art of listening and responding with "hmm, I would like to see that". And then just walk off. Even our least direct words have a lot of power. Sadly our culture doesn't encourage creativity from our youth, I agree with other scoutmasters that creativity is a skill many youth just plan struggle with. And it is fragile, if we adults show any kind negative opinion toward the their idea, they drop it. As for the cheer. Kind of a strange discussion here about how to justify it, or not, through tradition. Tradition? Our troop started a Troop JLT course that the older scouts present once a year. Somehow, the course got a reputation and other troops started sending their scouts. One of the activities they started using in the course was a competition of using semaphore. I came from a time of using semaphore a lot and was glad to forget it. But we said sure, lets see what happens. Turns out the scouts today love putting signals together and communicating with scouts a football field away. The older scouts love the exercise and used it for years. Apparently tradition can be fun. Our troop uses cheer regularly. It's a method of unity really. The patrols mostly do a cheer at the beginning of the Flag Ceremonies. SCOUTS ATTENTION! COLOR GUARD ATTENTION! "LEAD, FOLLOW OR GET OUT THE WAY!". Or whatever they create. The cheer can be made up promptitude for the moment like during a special ceremony for ECOR. But it is a small way of showing pride for the group. And it's not just patrol pride, sometime the cheers can get competitive, and healthy competition pulls all the patrols together of showing pride. As much as cheers work at the patrol and troop level, our troop typically volunteers for Color Guard at summer camp. The scouts who do the service usually create something quick, but catchy. And they typically get some clapping by the other troops. But it also typically sets the other troops on a tone to one-up the last cheer and it grows into a camp competition. A way of camp unity. Pretty cool really. Cheers can be a great patrol method tool when the old scoutmaster is willing to let it. Even encourage it a little. I once challenged our color guard at summer camp to do a silent version of the service. Our guys are pretty cocky after doing these for a few years, so I challenged their egotistical confidence. I have heard of the silent color guard presentation, but never saw one. I didn't know what to expect. So imagine the color guard getting in position, standing in silence for a few seconds, and then performing the flag service without a single call from the leader. The only sound is wind and birds. It has to be practiced to look sharp. But if done well, the color guard marches back into the ranks with an ovation by the camp. Try it if your troop has an opportunity. Scouting is giving scouts the opportunity to like themselves from their own personal choices. I learned to leave nothing behind. Sometimes an old idea is what is needed. Anybody do chariot races with lashings and poles? It's a fun way to teach lashings. Ah I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Seems like a lot of talk to say "OK, I shouldn't have said anything". If we truly want to get into what scouting traditions "adults" think should or shouldn't be used today, we aren't too far from debating the value of knots AND lashings in todays Velcro/bungee cord culture. Barry

Just need the right merit badge training.

Arrows? I don't need no stinking arrows. Barry

Todays parents both work full time jobs and then come home to fix dinner and wind down as a family. REALLY caring sometimes takes away from family time. There are ways to help this, we tried to get assistants to help with the planning, but leading a den can still be a pull on the leaders life. When a leader called to vent on their struggle, I always listened and tried to find a fix that didn't require more of their time or change of their lifestyle. I believe den leaders are the hardest working scouters in the BSA. Barry

This is how we did our Tiger program. We asked dens to meet twice a month where ever they wanted and we gave them suggestions like the zoo, fire station, and places appealing to tiger families looking for an easy afternoon. We also gave them the pack meeting as a choice, but not a requirement because we wanted their time to be more of a parent son time than scout time. We tried hard to help the parents not feel pulled by the program. We had a 97 percent crossover rate to Bears. Barry

In another discussion I spoke of the chaos of new scouts. They go crazy on the elixir of independence and run as fast and as far as they can waiting for someone to yell, SSSSTOP! The adventure for them is the distance to those far boundaries of boy run. Schiff is right, adventure is really a simple thing that we seem to have turned into huge expensive treks that go around the world. Part of the problem is adults today seem to feel that scouts need to go through the right of passage of earning 1st Class. "Then" they can do the fun adventure stuff. I blame that on National's suggestion of "First Class in the First Year" promise. I remember when our troop was young. We did a day trip to commercial climbing tower in downtown Oklahoma City where the scouts climbed for two hours. Our plan after was to eat pizza at a local restaurant about six blocks away. Without hesitating, the SM told the SPL that the adults would take the cars and meet the scouts at the restaurant. We drove off the SPL was assembling the scouts. The adults met scouts at the same time in front of the door. You would have thought that the talk of the day would have been the Climbing Tower, but it was about hiking the patrols through downtown OKC without any adults. Making simple independent decisions that impact the lives patrol mates is adventure. Learning from those decisions is adventure. Hey, lets squeeze in a little fishing, hiking, backpacking, canoeing and bike rides in there as well and those scouts are having adventures there friends only dream about. I had a friend who had been a SM for eight months when he called me one night. He was Wood Badge trained under the old course and would not take any advice on leading his new troop of new scouts. His simple question to me was, "my scouts are bored to death of doing advancement on campouts. What can I do to fix that?". I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words. I'm not preaching about anti-advancement because I am very pro Eight Methods. But I think we need to train todays new adult leaders that the attraction of scouting is the active participation of new experiences. The simple adventure of hiking the last mile to a campsite at night. How about setting up camp in the dark, the rain or both. LOL, I remember one ASM laughing at me as I hoped the rain in the distance while we drove to camp would hit us about the time we reached our camp sites. Do you realize how much confidence a boy builds by the simple act of setting up a tent in the rain? And in the Dark? It is amazing to watch. Truly! Their friends can't even imagine it. Adventure is cooking the first meal with an older scout while he tells jokes. Adventure is chasing a rabbit or standing back as the local camp skunk walks by looking for food scraps. As I gave my SM friend a few suggestions, he was shocked to learn that our scouts have at least a couple hours of free time before preparing for supper. Free time never occurred to him because he never had free time at Wood Badge. Imagine capture the flag after the campfire in the dark. Ah, adventure. Some of my favorite adventure moments as a scout were the great discussions over the patrol campfire. As a eleven and twelve year old, I learned a lot about cars, fighter airplanes, girls and movies from those discussions. Funny, I knew most of the key phrases from George C. Scott in his character of Patton before I ever saw the movie. I remember thinking as I watched the movie for the first time that it wasn't as good as how my patrol mates told it. LOL Adventure is doing something different in their patrol than if they stayed home. It's not as hard as it sounds. How can we explain that to new scout leaders? I haven't said it in a while, but I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Matt, you have a very good grasp of the situation. There are two different problems mixing in the discussion. One is boys who are not mature enough for the troop program, the other is Cub adult burnout driving boring den programs. Bringing 2nd year Webelos to troop meeting and a few activities is a good idea because it not only Lets Webelos tsee the troop Scouts in action, it also gives troop leaders a chance to assist the burned out Web leader in proving a better Webelos program. It also helps in the other problem of first year scout maturity, because as you said, knowing what to expect reduces the shock of the troop program. This is serious issue because more Scouts drop out during the first year troop experience than any other age. NSPs and First Class In The First Year (FCFY) is how National attacked the problem around 1990. But, the numbers hasn't changed and I'm my opinion, the program went to a less adventure formate because it focuses too much on advancement. All that being said (I know, I keep repeating myself), the adult burnout issue still needs to be addressed. I've said many times here, I personally would start by taking the Tigers out of the Cub program. Tiger age Scouts don't have the reading skills or behavior discipline that helps Pack Meetings run faster and smoother. They basically still have the maturity of toddlers. Just as important, the first grade year is typically a chaotic year for parents because that is the first year all programs like sports, church, and school change from toddler to elementary mature activities. They are hit by the multiple programs to register the kids just in the first week of school. Overwhelmed Parents are why Tigers has such a low crossover to bears. When National change the Tiger program in 2000 to require a parent for each scout attend four meetings a month, we predicted a higher dropout in Tigers and a sudden drop in troop membership in five years. It wasn't hard to predict, but it sure had people scratching their heads as it happened. Give the parents a year to get used to their more complicated lifestyle, then they can consider Scouts at an age where parents aren't required for every meeting. I know a lot of folks are afraid if they don't snag boys in first grade, they may never get them. But we had a pack drop their tiger program completely and never saw a drop in membership the 5 years I tracked them. As I said, the BSA membership decline is a complicated problem. Adding new demographic sources will not slow the bleeding because the problems are still there, and likely make the problems worse by adding more complexity. Barry

I did this with my Webelos and it worked pretty well. We only did one camp out with troop because it is a lot of work for the PLC. But I believe one camp out is fine anyway. Also we allowed Webelos to visit campouts and participate in the Saturday activities, which works fine as well if the adults are separated with the troop adults so they get an explanation of how the troop works. I remember one parent who got concerned when his son rode his bike in the lake. It was 35 degrees that day. He later joined our troop because he was impressed by how the adults stayed by the fire and let the Scouts take care of the Webelos. He also said our calm response of "he'll never do that again" was the best example of how the program teaches Scouts he could have seen. You are right, so long as Webelos can see a future that looks like fun, then it helps them through the boring days of being a Webelos. Let me just say not all Webelos den are boring, I found most den packs find pretty good den leaders. But loosing over 50% does show an overall problem. A problem I believe starts at Tigers. Also, the BSA membership problem of loosing Scouts the first six months in a troop comes down to the shell shock of young boys taking on so much responsibility and independence all at once. Webelos that have watched and experienced some of that independence have much better odds of getting through that first six months. And as I said, if you got them after summer camp, you pretty much have until at least 14. Longer if the program has the maturity for older Scouts. Barry

Maybe because most of the active members on this forum now are troop leaders, the discussion is missing the bleeding membership problem. I havent looked at the numbers in about 10 years, but up until then less than 50% of tigers become bears. Less than 50% of webelos join a troop. That is not including the drop outs during the other years. Now consider, if a New scout is still in a troop after six months, he will likely stay in Scouts until he is 14. Ignoring the first six months drop out numbers, which is the largest of all scouting, the troop program has a very low drop out rate compared to all the other years. What that means is that the troop program is not driving Scouts away. The cub program is where the bleeding is the problem. Of course the first six months troop drop outs is a concern, but that is a different problem which has been consistent since the BSA tracked membership. The cub drop out problem is complicated, but so as not to drowl on as I typically do, the core of the problem is adult burnout. The average volunteer in any organization has about 20 months of enthusiastic service in them. After that, they start to become a drag on the program. The Cub program is FIVE YEARS LONG. Solutions? Start by making the cub program shorter. Barry

90 percent of the world doesn't know that the BSA has less adventure or a different kind of adventure than 100 years ago. The vast majority of of the community (including BSA adult leaders) believe today's scouting has just as much adventure as any troop in history. In fact, l would challenge that troops today have more adventure than most troops in the past. My dad's troop in the early 1940s walked to all their camp outs. Any adventure beyond 10 miles out of town was unheard of. So I'm wondering how we should look at today's adventure in perspective of today's program. Barry

Your words. Barry

First off, we will get back to your offensive insinuation of the other unit. Nothing less than bigotry and religious intolerance as far as I'm concerned. You have NO integrity in this forum in a discussion of judging others. 2nd, HOW DO YOU KNOW, YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE SCOUTS!. It doesn't matter how you announce it, the other families have a right to know. Your shower comments are irrelevant since the other scouts don't know. Your example of how you are handling this matter is exactly my problem with the BSA handing this kind of responsibility to the volunteers. Keeping secrets like this in the program creates a huge risk. Someone is going to get hurt and quite frankly, there is a serious risk of safety here. Don't use this No Sex In Scouting to defend your recklessness. Are you standing over all the scouts in their tents at night. You do know that the BSA get a fair number of scout to scout sexual abuse calls. It's not always about actions, but perception. I am amazed. Does the District or Council leaders know. Is this standard procedure in other units? Shesh! Barry

Well wait a minute, what about the local option? Here is a different question: On the pretense of sexual attraction, would it be alright for male and female scouts sleep in the same tent? With that being asked, since gay males are sexually attracted to males, shouldn't the other scouts know the scout is gay so they understand the sexuality of their relationship during the activities, and tenting arrangements? I don't know because I have no experience in this area. Barry

Well, I guess families will have some different definitions of innocence. When I read your list, I see the adults in your life acting in "your" best interest in what they exposed you to. I think that is about defined as I can get it. Yes I know this is extreme, but there was a recent article in the paper about a 20 year old father (they think he is the father, maybe not) who killed the three week old infant of the 13 year old mother. The mother asked the father to kill her baby. I can't comprehend any part of the situation. I had to read the article three times to get the ages right. Somehow I don't think there were any adults in any of these kids lives that were acting in their best interest, ever. Barry

Same as any adult who exploits children for a personal gain. Barry

As I'm watching mothers proudly walk with their eight year old daughters at anti-abortion marchs on the news, I think to myself, "adults today don't allow our children any innocence". The adults in our troop allow the scouts their privacy in their tents. That's not a big deal when the adults are camped 300 ft away. But it's not uncommon to set tents next to each other in the back county on high adventure treks. It amazes me that scouts think their tents are sound proof. Sadly, sex is a political football in todays culture, so it is a typical topic of discussion for just about everyone of school ages. Is it really reasonable to not expect these discussions among scouts? As an aside; do you think the mother has explained to her eight year old daughter that mom is fighting for the right to kill her daughters pre-born brothers and sisters? Makes me wonder just how far children are willing to trust their parents to raise them right. Barry

I'm speaking at a high level of the organization making decisions for their volunteers, but OK. Here is a hypothetical for you, real life experience for me. A new scout joins the troop who absolutely loves the program. Dad, who is an Eagle, is excited to volunteer as well. However, mom and dad are in the middle of a fierce divorce. Mom uses scouts to make her son do things against his dad, and to force dad to make tough decisions about his relationship with his son. Every time scouting comes up in any way, son is caught in the middle of a loud discussion. Do you have any moral opinion or judgement of the situation, or more importantly your position as a leader (scoutmaster for me) in that situation? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. Mom puts her son in scouting because she really believe the experience does develop better habits of character. Dad thinks scouting is for sissies and tells his son that every time he puts on a uniform. Is there a moral opinion here? Judgment? Another hypothetical for you, real life for me. You, the Scoutmaster, get call by the police in the middle of the night to help in a domestic call of child abuse. Seems the abused child's brother ask for help from the only person he trust, his scoutmaster. This does not set well with the parents. The overall situation raises to a level that the family disappears that week, never to be found again. Loaded their car and left everything. Why do so many people think that not having a moral opinion or not judging is more noble? I honestly don't understand. Barry

I think that anyone suggesting that this discussion is all about defending tradition hasn't been reading the discussion. If we have to put the discussion in simple terms, I would say quality vs. quantity. Barry

Immoral? Yes, in the context of mental and physical harm. If someone starts on an un-natural lifestyle path as a result of adult choices that weren't in that childs best interest, I believe putting them in an environment that further encourages their lifestyle is abuse. The BSA is putting volunteers in responsibilities where they could risk further harm. So yes, that is immoral to me. Barry

Anytime a child feels unsafe as the result of an adults self-serving action, they feel betrayed. Barry

1 Corinthians 13:7 "Love always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres." You and I have a different definition of what support and harm means in raising children. In my lifetime I found that children feel a kind of horror when they are betrayed by the adults they trusted. It changes them and while they may recover (revert?), it never goes away. I have said here before that I believe that loneliness is the major cause for most of people who choose unnatural paths of a life. Adults have an obligation to raise children in the way they should go. For me, the way they should go is God. But at the very least, it's respect. Barry

Yes, you are of course correct NJ. I only used the source as a way of expressing why I appose the BSAs policy on this subject. I'm sure my previous post are consistent. It's a moral perspective for me, but I guess it's also conservative, which sadly makes it political as well. Barry

Yes, I also stated the same opinion during our gay scout discussions. I've heard enough personal stories of gays switching back to heterosexual to still feel strongly about it. I'm not suggesting more debate, I only submitted the article because it expresses my feelings better than I can that the BSA is putting adults in harms way. Barry