Eagledad

Your major criticism is not the case in our council, so your observation is local. Barry

The chip on your shoulder may be served as a result of your staff, I don't know. But after working from a district position to with a lot of struggling units, the course design was almost exactly what I felt was needed. I believe most participant go into the program expecting to learn either scout specific skills or leadership specific skills. But those are not the skills that tear units down. Units lacking the understanding of goals and how to set them along with how to work as a team are the two areas that I most often saw as the cause of broken units at all levels of scouting. The course teaches those aspects pretty well if the staff does their part correctly. Barry

I totally understand your frustration. And I'm not belittling your situation at all. Changing packs may be your best solution. Whenever I worked with frustrated scouters such as yourself, I told them "welcome to the world of the District Executive." The problem organizations faced with relying on volunteers is that they have to rely on volunteers. Volunteers carry the heavy baggage of inexperience and no skills. Along with that is the added burden of good intentions without follow through. It's very frustrating as you know. Your only choice is to take the program by the horns and run it from the CC position, or step way back. Many really successful units are managed by CC who has the skills to recruit and delegate. If you believe yourself to have those skills, pay the application fee yourself and take over. If you doubt having those skills, then the CC probably isn't a good place for you anyway. As I said, I have seen hundreds of units in your situation. Sadly they are probably the majority of programs to some degree. But someone with the right skills can change all that. Barry

Direction. Not everyone leaves feeling fulfilled from the course, but that doesn't mean the course is wrong for everyone. Many folks find their calling in the BSA as a result of the course. Believe it or not, most course participants don't really have much understanding of what they will be doing in their unit a year from now. The course is designed to help give them that vision. If the staff knows what they are doing, most participants leave with direction and goals. That being said, the course has a lot more impact if the participants' unit leaders work with them in developing those goals. What do you think your four adults would say if you asked them what they think they will be doing a year from now? Barry

That' kind of what we did. This appears to be a complicated topic, but what makes it complicated is how to guide the program so that the scouts learn from their freedom of making choices. If the experience is supposed to be a growing experience, than theoretically the scouts grow toward healthier menus without outside guidance. What scares adults is the will abuse the freedom and live a junk food weekend o each Boy Scout camp out. Right? The discussion is kind of going in the direction pitting health concerned adults against the uncaring junk food attic youth. It wasn't that way for us because we took adult directing out of the exercise. At least in dictating what scout could bring anyway. We did help the scouts understand some of the health issue a little better when situations occurred. But the way we took the adults out of the discussion was letting the Scout Handbook guide the scouts. The handbook is pretty good guide on nutrition and healthy meals. Or was, I know the book has gone through a couple of revision. Our scouts know that they are expected to use the scout handbook for all their guidance that it will apply. In fact they even made skits about how they needed to reference the handbook for guidance. So when the scouts are told they have no restrictions to menus other than the guidance of the handbook, they feel pretty good about the freedom. And at first they will push the boundaries Way-over-the-line, but as they abuse their freedom, they start to see the consequences as well with hyper scouts who stay up all night, litter (lots of litter), not feeling good, and bad behavior. Of course the SM may ask the SPL for a surprise camp inspection while the scouts are activities to find the litter or visit scouts during meals. As Eagleonfire pointed out, proper hydration is very important and when a scout shows the slight bit of problem, everyone is on it quickly. But, in truth the scouts and adults already know who is abusing their freedom before it gets to that point. So while the SM may suggest or hint to the SPL that some guidance may be required, we found the PLC was ready for the discussion because in truth, Patrol Leaders don't like the abuse either, once the understand the limitations of proper nutrition. Surprising to me, our patrols went from bringing a case of coke to the first campout to not bringing any at all by their forth. The litter and disobedience of the scouts drove the PLC to limit two cans per scout per campout. The litter issue continued and drove the PLC to only allow two 1 liter bottles for Saturday Night only. We are a back packing troop, so the hassle of carrying 1 liter bottles for only Saturday night dinner drove most patrols to give it up all together. So, in six months time, sodas came and went without the adults getting involved. Well not to involved, the Scoutmaster did show the SPL BSA literature requiring adult responsibility for the scouts health. But, the Scout Handbook pretty much drove the standards. I think what the scouts really enjoyed was the freedom, but once the newness of it was over, the hassle of the soda and other unhealthy foods was more than they wanted. The hard part about this is being patient and cleaver enough to figure out how shape the freedom so that the scouts learn from their experience. I can honestly say we stumbled around it, but it work for the most part. I'm not promising your results will be the same, but I will say our experience can give you some hope the scouts do eventually prefer health and nutrition, with in reason. Our troop does have a tradition of stopping at a local store on the way home for junk food, provided they break camp early enough to get us home by 2:00 pm. Oh, I will add that since the first day the first 16 scouts started the troop, there has always been a requirement for the patrols to cook all meals except lunch. I don't know if that makes much difference in this discussion. That wasn't so much for nutrition as it was to prevent skipping meals. Barry

Eagleonfire, my scouting experience as both a youth and adult for the last 50 years are in Oklahoma City. In fact I live just up the road from camp DaKani. While physical health is important during outdoor activities here, Scouts of the Boy Scout age are very capable of making the right decisions for their health. My reply to your post wasn't so much to your words as it was to your condescending tone. I agree leadership for eight year olds is different than scoutmastering for troop age Scouts, but there are better ways to present an opinion in a discussion. Barry

We keep saying that Patrol Method works because scouts learn from their decisions. Some decisions, even in their simplicity, are very good teachers because they expose ones balance of discipline and self desire. I personally like scouts to see their strength and weaknesses of making choices, so we presented them with many choices, most of which they didn't realize was on purpose. We adults can't force a scout to change his behavior, he has to make that change himself for it to be a life change. Scouts are more likely to change when they see their consequences repeatedly. It's easy to tell a scout his behavior is wrong. The challenge for scouters is presenting scouts in situations where their personal choices motivate their changes of behavior. Is a coke all that much different than candies, cup cakes, Pop Tarts, cell phones, and techs like Gameboys? Health depends on the balance of mixing treats within a healthy diet. Of course we adults can restrict temptations from scouts for their own good, or we can allow those choices in a safe environment where they face the consequences of their choices. The more consequences they face, the more they learn of themselves. I found cokes, and other treats, to be a very good test for scouts to see themselves. Barry

Last week, a colleague and I were stuck together car in a during a business trip for several hours. As things go these days, and we found ourselves deep into each other's political ideals. After we concluded our trip and stated heading to our own cars, my colleague turned and thanked me for intellectual discussion that forced him to consider other angles on the subject. He actually said intellectual. What did we do for him to respond like that, we patiently listened to what each other and responded respectfully without judging or condescension. We both behaved within the scout law. Some here like to call this forum a campfire, but after years here, I find our human nature struggles to restrain our emotions to patiently respect each other when we aren't sitting face to face. At real campfires, my scouting colleagues and I have approached many subjects from opposite sides of opinion, but we always seem to get in our sleeping bags with the same respect for each other that had before the camp out. Seems we adults struggle with the scout law when we arent held accountable by face to face contact. Barry

They can't have sodas? Hmmm So your adult rules are more important than my adult rules? Barry

As the local patrol method activist, I have always blamed National's lack of training for the lack of patrol method in the districts. But the problem is worse than that, Patrol method is just not part of National's concept for a successful scout program. When we humans have to provide activities with little or no guidance, we develop those activities using reasoning based from our own personal knowledge and life experiences. I used to teach boy run and many adults just wouldn't, or couldn't, comprehend the idea of developing character by giving boys the independence to make choices for how they participated in their small community we call patrol. Adults are driven by ambition and the ambitions of parents is giving their kids the best advantages. Everyone here will probably agree that the first question about your troop by visiting parents is something to do with advancement. That is not typically the first order of priority on their son's list. But don't misunderstand, parents are being normal, it's the patrol method program that doesn't fit in the normal way of things. The only way to push a trend is to provide overwhelming information to sway adults away from their personal Instincts on the subject. For that to happen, direction has to come from the top and and have support all the way don't to the program users. I don't see National showing that kind of support for patrol method. Our troop started at its inception a very traditional patrol method program only because the two main adult leaders who started the troop had traditional patrol method experiences as youths. There was no support at the district or council levels for our out-of-norm program. They did, however, start to show an interest when membership grew from 16 to 60 in three years. However, outsiders looking in still had a hard time believing in the simple concept of patrol method. We kept getting pressure to conform to Nationals 3 patrol structure (NSP, Regular Patrols, Venture Patrols) AND also divide off the oldest Scouts into an adventure crew. Being open minded, we tested the waters of some of the suggestions, only revert back when they didn't prove out. We helped and guided anyone who wanted a program like ours, but that is a rough road for any unit without district or council support. Especially when the adults don't have any patrol method experience as a foundation for their decisions. Without experiences and knowledge, adults tend to fall back on their parental instincts of giving their kids a program that apeals to adults. Advancement based. I'm not saying it's hopeless, but patrol method is a lot of work. Of course the rewards are worth it, but looking back, I realize a patrol method program requires some passion to maintain positive momentum. I believe scouting forums can be a great source of support for adults who want a patrol method troop, but im seeing more and more skepticism and resistance these days from even experienced Scoutmasters. The traditional patrol method program is becoming more rare every day. I often wonder if my sons are the last generation to experience it. That being said, I hope to be a source for patrol method for a good while. I still have the passion, and I guess that's why of love this scouting stuff. Barry

Yes, the change occurred in 2000. We on the district had been informed 1998 the Tiger program was changing. Maybe because we assumed National was feeling our pain, we expected the changes were going the other way, requiring less adult time and less meetings. Nope, National went the other way and required more adult time, more meetings and changed to the more expensive official cub uniform. I was the District Membership Chair at the time and presented the new program to the Cubmasters. They were not happy. And, the Wolf numbers dropped as a result of the increase of Tiger drop outs. I couldn't believe National wasn't seeing the problems those of us in the trenches were seeing. Take a look at the 2005/2006 troop numbers and you will see a drop that was a direct result of the Tiger changes in 2000. Barry

The success of a boy fitting in a troop is reliant on maturity, not age. I agree, typically 9 year olds don't have the maturity for the troop program. And when a family tried to push their son a head of the standard, usually the parents were pushing the effort, not the son. And usually their reasoning was to get a jump on advancement (eagle). Barry

No! The high risk high school where my son teaches was given an award for performing best among the high risk schools in the area. I asked my son why his school performed better and he said expectations placed on the students. The expectations of his administration are more ambitious than the other schools. The teachers take and pushed those expectations on their students and the result is better performance over the whole school. I gave scouters at adult leader training the same lesson, but it was nice to see it reinforced. The expectations of scouts in each unit are set by their adults. The differences of adults are why scouts perform differently in different units. Any adult who thinks they don't have any influence on their scouts behavior habits are naive. Different expectations of different units is neither a good or bad. We are who we are and very rarely can we change. Variety is the spice of life. The benefit of this forum is that scouters who read the different experiences of difference posters can pick the ideas that will work best for them. Barry

Not my experience. The difference is high school seniors have the adult maturity for watching out and taking care of their group. It's part of our human instinct. Of course boys like to hang around now and then with those who have like interest, but mature older scouts are adults and get the same satisfaction as the adult leaders in helping younger scouts grow. In fact, most troops where the older scouts are responsible for the well being and performance of the whole program have higher numbers of older scouts. Barry

I have been speaking about this issue since the mid 90s. First off, boys go where their parents want them to go, so it's not a scout burnout issue. It is an adult burnout issue at the cub level. While adults do burnout at the troop level, it's not the problem of cubs because the patrol method program gives the boys some control of their program. At the cub level, adults are expected to manage a program for at least five years. Experts say the average volunteer gives 20 months before starting burnout. Adults don't just drop out after 20 months, but their effort has lost it's enthusiasm and the program suffers. The real problem comes with the Webelos because just to start the typical Bear leader is mother and has been an active leader between two to three years. Webelos hits them hard because not only are they are burned out, they don't feel they have the skills or knowledge for running a more outdoors boy scout skills program. The thought of camping outdoors in the heat or cold with a den of 9 year old boys has no appeal at all. So what typically happens is either the burned out mother sticks it out as a Webelos leader without any energy for the responsibility or someone else is pulled heels dragging into the position. I found in my research that about 40% of Webelos leaders fall under the burnout scenario. There programs are basically boring without much push toward a future in the boy scout troop. On a national average (at least 10 years ago) only about 50% of Webelos cross over into troops to continue their scouting experience. What is interesting about that statistic is that the scouts would have bailed out a year earlier during Webelos I if it not for the Arrow of Light award. Parents want their sons to learn the lesson of sticking with something to the end, so they encourage their sons to finish cubs. I found that both parents and sons of burned out cub leaders don't even really consider the Troop program because they believe it will be the same boring experience as the Webelos. It's hard to get good numbers, but I believe that less than 25% (15 to 20%) of cubs who started at the tiger level make it to the troop program. That is why the cub adult burn out issue is such a big deal. And that is why I scuff off worrying about gays and transexuals making a difference in membership numbers. The real membership problem starts with the adult leaders in Cubs. Loose the adults and you loose the boys. Visa versa, keep the adults and you keep the boys. Drive the program to keep the adults and they boy membership will grow leaps and bounds. I saw it over and over. Does one year in one way or another make an attempt at fixing the problem, yes to some degree. I did find a lot of burned out Wolf leaders. So the 20 months rule really does take a toll. But the real toll is the activities of the Webelos program. Webelos really does require someone with some enthusiasm. Not so much an outdoors experience, but someone willing to plan fun meetings with activities that appeal to boys with a lot of energy. I talked to a couple of Webelos leaders who never took their den on a campout or spent much time doing boy scout skills, but they planned fun active den meetings that they boys looked forward to each week. As a result, they crossover looking forward to the troop program. One of those leaders told me that when the boys got restless, she handed the boys a basket ball and told them to have some fun. See, it's not so much about having a camping outdoor skills experience to join a troop, it's having a good experience that appeals to the age maturity. The reason the Tigers, and now Lions, is so demanding on adults is because the maturity between first grade and second grade is dramatically different. First grade is where youth learn the discipline of sitting and listening. AND, it is where they learn to read. I learned as a SM that printing out the words for songs and cheers doesn't work with Tigers. So I had to figure out other ways to introduce new songs and cheers. But, to my point, a Tiger scout still has the toddler maturity. And the problem is that when all the are groups are together, the program has to appeal from the least mature scout to the most mature scout. That is a huge range of maturity. How big? Some Scoutmasters I worked with agreed that the Tiger program alone almost doubles the number adults require to manage the whole pack. Our pack experience was much the same. If the BSA really wants to recruit families of toddlers, they need to start a separate program like the Girl Scouts Daisy program so the adults in the pack don't have to manage a program with such a broad range in maturity. And, it's easier on the pocket book for first time parents. A Blue Cub Scout shirt is twice the cost of a T-shirt. And, a scout is less likely to out grow the shirt in three years where many Bears are looking to replace the shirt they stared with as a tiger. That may sound small to some here, but we found that entry fees is a big consideration for many parent considering the BSA at the Tiger age. I hope that helps folks understand better the problem of adult burnout. Barry

It's a bold risk, I admit. But I believe it depends on your boy source. If several packs share the same source, then it's more of a challenge. I have personally only observed one pack who stopped their Tiger program, so it is interesting to read about other packs trying it as well. Seems they all do OK. In view of the membership trends, that is the data that National should be reviewing. Barry

This could possibly turn into the Facebook. Scoutsbook? Barry

He is talking about an app for all scouts in all units in the US and maybe even farther. I'm not a technogeek, but I encouraged my scouts to go for their dreams. One scout forgot to use the scout law in his design of our Troop Web page and had to reeled in a little, so my only suggestion is keep all things within the scout oath and law. Barry

Fred, the pack here that did it with the Tigers just quit doing the Tigers program. Folks may have asked about it occasionally, but not near as much as you would think. In fact, that pack had split some years earlier and the other pack happily joined back. That wasn't their big drive to merge again, but it was a benefit. The DE was on their back a lot, but because they didn't suffer a drop in membership, they stood their ground. Have you considered dropping the Tiger program as well? That would certainly streamline your program. Barry

Maybe it's too much to expect of adults today. I have been giving examples for 15 years on this forum of how to develop a boy run program based my successful experiences. Lately even scouters on this forum question my thoughts and examples. If Scoutmasters on this forum can't believe those of us with experience, how can we expect them to consider anything other than their own ideas. Is mature growth from making independent decisions really all that hard to believe! Barry

Work of fiction? Over the years, many of us on this forum have stated Clarke's point. It's a big hurdle for both the adults and scouts, but it does change the dynamics of the program when that level is reached. Barry

I think it is a good analogy. I agree with your whole post. All I was saying is that how a scout reacts to decisions is based on how they observe their role models reacting to decisions. That is one reason why I say the performance of the whole troop can be judged by the performance of just the older scouts. Barry

Sure, but your analogy fits better for skills used for enhancing the processes like managing and organization. Observation really is more about behavior in the process of making decisions. So in your analogy I would describe the scouts learning the different swimming strokes in the shallow end while observing to learn how and what strokes to use in the deep end. The skills are as much about giving the confidence to use the skills in new situations that require decisions as they are an aid in the process after the decision. Our troop works from the philosophy of passive learning, as apposed to instructional school type learning. I guess we are being purist or fanatical, but we worked toward a program of scouts learning everything by observation and material guidance (handbooks). Our objective for the program was that if the adults didn't show up, the program continued normally. We wanted the scouts to have total independence from adults guidance in managing the program. So the skills we encouraged were intended to be tools used when the scouts reached a maturity and confidence for making complicated decisions. Even the smallest of responsibilities encouraged the scouts to perform some authoritative communication with other scouts, planning a process, starting the process and completing the process. So in the case of the Grub Master, the scout has to use authoritative communication to plan a menu with the patrol and start the process of acquiring the groceries for the menu and get those groceries to the campout. In most cases the scouts don't even know they are practicing skills. They are just kind of following through a system to get eat on a campout. But when you compare the scout's skills and confidence from his first day to his last day, you see a completely different person. A person who is ready for a more advanced level of growing. Quartmaster, ASP, who knows? It depends on the scout and his ambition in the program. The observing part is really more about the behavior process of reacting to decisions. Our adults purposely never yell or take initial directive actions in the presents of the scouts. We stand back and wait for the scouts to initiate what ever actions are expected at the time. Even to the point that adults never put the sign up to get attention. If an adult has the floor and needs to get the attention of the group, they ask a senior scout near them to get the groups attention. It was pointed out by another Scoutmaster at summer camp that our senior scout leaders where quiet in their leadership. I hadn't noticed until he said that. The scoutmaster said that our scouts quiet nature stood out among all the other troops that seem to yell or bark out commands at their scouts. Learned skills help a scout performance in the activities and processes (leadership) of the program. Practice of those skills guides a scouts to make decisions, but the behaviors learned by observing others guides the scout to how he reacts to decisions. If the role models tend to speak loudly to motivate action, then those who observe that behavior will likely duplicate that style of behavior. If on the other hand the role models react with a more quiet voice or by delegation or what ever, those who observe will likely duplicate the same actions. Barry

Not according to my Child Psychology friends (one who was a scoutmaster), and later on my observation of life. Not only humans, but until puberty, most mammals learn their behavior by observing. Our scouts were not pushed into group leadership very quickly after they joined the troop. We instead encouraged they take on roles where they had smaller responsibilities that required some communication and guidance to members of the control like Cheer Master and Grub Master. They were encourage to take on more responsibility as the gains confidence. By the time scouts did get into the more responsible roles, they had a great deal of confidence in the skills they started using. Even older scouts who transferred into the troop made comments that younger scouts had more confidence and leadership skills than their own units. They found it intimidating at first. It works. Barry

I like this approach. I'm no a fan of throwing new scouts in deep with patrol responsibilities, especially in a more boy run program. The young scouts learn best by observing, so let them observe older scouts dealing with patrol responsibilities and wean them into the habit of being responsible by first starting with decisions that involve them personally. Patrol method in a Troop is enough of a cultural shock that the BSA looses more scouts during the first year in a troop than any other year. Barry