Eagledad

well yes of course, but it's also an example of the advantages of scouters using this forum. Where else can a scouter needing ideas go for something to push their program up the next step. The best this forum has is a buffet of ideas? Once in a while scouters who are ether angry at the world or believe they are the old man at the top of the mountain when it comes to scouting join the forum to set the way things should be. But they come and go as they find out some here either have more experience or bigger egos. Or both. I remember being young, egotistical and a scoutmaster. I believed that not only the scouts should share my vision of the perfect scout, but the adults as well. Then something happened, over a series of experiences and some straight talk by my mentors, I turned my fixation off of me and on the scouts. Actually each scout individually. The world of scouting changed and the scouts benefited greatly from it. I grew up and now I'm here to add my part to this wonderful buffet of ideas. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

It's my vacation, not yours. Barry

Maybe, but I prefer different strokes for different folks. Typically 95% of our scouts goto to summer camp, which includes scouts 14 and older. Camps never questioned us when we reserved a separate camp for the adults. We may not agree on the subject of adults at camp, but our scouts enjoy the way we camp. Barry

If adult leaders want to be part of the boy run program, they will find justifications to be part of the boy run program. Barry

We have a lot of parents go to camp with us, but they are instructed that this is their vacation and they need to plan accordingly without their sons because the scouts are on their own. We reserve two separate camps so the adults aren't mixed with the scouts. In general the adults look for local activities that fits their personal interest. That has included a lot fishing and occasional golf. Oh the scouts will ask for occasional volunteers for BORs or something, but that is very occasional. Summer camp is an opportunity for intense patrol method. I've heard many times from first year parents that their son came back a different person (more mature). That being said, I remember letting a few scouts go have some father son time with their dad. Dads understand the program and plan their time so that it doesn't disrupt their sons experience with their patrol. The SPL is the camp go-to unit leader unless the camp staff absolutely needs the attention of an adult. He is the first person in our troop to enter camp (with all the troop documents) and the last to leave. As a result, the SPL works so hard that the troop pays his camp fees. Many scouts working towards SPL try to plan for getting elected in the January election so they can be the summer camp SPL. It's very hard work, but They look forward to the challenge and responsibilities of an adult. And some scouts have seen that job and wait until their 2nd stint as SPL. If our adults want to monitor a class, we ask them to find one without our scouts. We had one mother whose older son in a different troop attended the same camp the week after our troop. She didn't go home two weeks. She said the two troops could not have been more opposite, she only read novels during our week and worked her tail off with the next week with the other troop. She never went to camp with the other troop again. Parent vacation time is valuable, let them enjoy it while their sons do their scouting stuff. Your scouts certainly don't need them. Barry

I agree. When a scout's behavior becomes uncontrollable, the parents have to make a choice to actively solve the problem or find another program. It's their choice. A few parents have chosen to find another program. Barry

Read my posts, I said several times "adult" bans and rules can limit Scout growth and maturity. You didn't mention the PLC until after my post. I wasn't the only scouter here suggesting that your adults consider their part on the subject. I guess I was just the one that struck a cord. Barry

Ok, I understand. But if I may, you sound pretty firm and limiting in your expectation. Scouts mimic their adults. Barry

Your post is still written as if maturity doesn't happen. Instead of debating my experiences with your experiences, you should be asking why scouts' and troops mature differently. The simple answer is they aren't given the expectation to mature. Scouts can only grow when they are given the room to learn from their decisions AND have a bases to compare their decisions against. In general that basest is the scout law. But more specifically it's the adults interpretation of the law, which is the expectation. The reason many troops don't continue maturing is because the adults aren't maturing. They have taken a stand on an expectation. All units do it to some degree. The adults simply don't consider other expectations, so growth and maturity stop. For a troop to remove the boundaries that prevent Scout growth, the adults have to grow and mature faster than the scouts. Expectations of a mature program are dynamic. Expectations (maturity) keep changing to continue challenging the scouts decision processes. It's very hard work for adults in a mature patrol method program. Not everyone is up for the challenge. And sadly sometimes it's just pride. Some adults like being in charge, so they don't allow growth and creativity that doesn't come from them. The best scoutmasters are very humble in their nature. Barry

It's not a premise, it's years of observation. Yes of course the goal is the scouts holding each other accountable for their choices. in fact that is the expectation. I can understand the PLC taking away choices because, like the adults, its easier not holding scouts accountable. But scouts and adults learn to adapt as they mature with the program. Just be careful the adults allow the scouts to adapt as they mature. Barry

The responsibility of the adults is to provid a program where scouts learn to balance the consequences of their choices with the Scout Law. The more a scout chooses, the more he gets to practice with the Scout Law. I used to instruct adults at leader training that the choices troops hold from their scouts are typically based from a adult fears or arrogance. Over the years of doing this scouting stuff, l found consistent scout behavior mimics consistent adult behavior. So the adults only real fear is their arrogance of hypocrisy. The way past adult fears is training and setting expectation. In this case, Teach how the phones can be valid tools During scouting activities and set an expectation that they won't interfere with the scouting experience. Of course some scouts will abuse the expectation, but that is an opportunity to guide the scout in his choices of living by the Scout Law. Barry

Yes, our troop allows scouts to use single man tents provided they bring their own. Being a back packing or minimalist program, I support it. But it wasn't that long ago this forum debated single man tents because a scout might become ill and nobody would know. I still support single man tents, but I can think of two scouts who tent mates had to get help in the middle of the night because they became so ill. Seems nothing is easy. Barry

Yep, Scoutmaster Sentinel has a nice ring to it. Barry

I wasn't thinking of anyone specificity, the forum had a lot of intense discussions back then and it was several years ago. Your post just reminded me of that argument. Barry

Our Bobwhite yell was "LOOK OUT BELOW!" Barry

I have to laugh, pro gay adult leaders on this form were saying the same thing when some us argued homosexuality was a bad example of role modeling. That's when they said "no sex in front of Scouts, which included hand holding by married leaders.". Of course that was a silly response, but no sillier than what is posted in this thread. Barry

One of our scouts was a Philmont Trail Guide and I asked him what was the most frustrating part of being a Trail guide. He said crews who took more than 30 minutes to break camp. He guided a few crews that took more than 2 hours to break a camp and it makes the whole day stressful trying to get them to their next campsite in a reasonable time. Add to that breaking camp in the dark. The faster the crew can break camp, the later they can sleep. Barry

Sentinel, I modeled our boy run program from a troop whose Scoutmaster started when he was about 21 and single (Cliff Golden - Troop 33). His Troop is the best model of boy run program in the country. He was my role model for becoming the type of scoutmaster I became. The best scoutmasters can sell refrigerators to Eskimos because Boy run/patrol method is a tough concept to sell. You have already proven yourself to have that skill. Barry

Interesting question. Everyone's answers are good. On my crews, the Scouts decided when to start the night before. In general they looked at the program and distance to the program and calculated departure from there. In most cases, but not all, we were on the trail just as the sun started giving us light. In a couple of cases, we were hiking a dark trail for a few minutes. Not my choice, but the scouts seem to get it pretty right in most cases. I should add that most of the scouts in the crews I was on had several backpacking trek experiences. Barry

I miss Oak Tree, he is a fine Scoutmaster with a lot of good advice. One of his comments when this, or any kind of situation of adult drama occurs is: "Someone has to step up.". Strangely I find that most adult behavior situations can be nipped in the bud if someone would just step up. But most folks do not want to be a bad cop or deal with confrontation. Our district was asked to deal with a SM and ASM relationship in a troop because the committee refused to step up. Much the same as the OPs, the ASM (mother) was still married and not hiding her affection for the just divorced SM even with her son around. The DE had to step up, but not after the troop lost a 3rd of it's scouts. The SM was later kicked out of the program for offering a beer to a scout after lights out. Barry

It's very common today. I know of several Eagle Scouts who either didn't have kids or only daughters who wanted to give their time to a troop, but felt the appearance was not socially acceptable. This goes back at least 20 years ago. We had a neighbor 25 years ago who wouldn't let my 6 year old daughter come to his house to play with his kids until his wife was home. We thought it strange at the time, but not today. Kind of sad because the scouters back in the 70s who didn't have kids seem to be the cool scouters. I think because they had toys like jeeps and motorcycles that the rest of the adults got rid of when their kids showed up. I was very careful around my daughters friends. She was in the Cheer squad and we chaperoned few games. I made sure my wife was close just incase I ended up in a situation where the Cheer coach and sponsors were pulled away. The environment is not friendly to single adults hanging around kids. Or a least not male single adults. My teacher son says teachers are under a lot of pressure not to get singled out with the students other than lecturing in their class. He gave up Facebook when he started. And the kids know this. He works with high risk kids and some of them know how to use the system to their advantage. If they want to get back at a teacher, the raise the "R" card. It's a big hassle for the teacher and school. There are no repercussions on the students for false alarms. Barry

You just described the intent of today's Wood Badge course in a nut shell. Barry

Yep, but it's not a leadership course. And anyone who tries to make it one would be getting away from the syllabus. I have personally never heard a single scouter debate leadership and management titles for courses, except on this forum. To many bigger hills out there. Let them have their beads stosh, they are where they want to be in the program. Barry

I don't see Woodbadge as a leadership or management training. It's team building training. It's called a leadership course because for most folks it's just semantics anyway. As I said earlier, most folks are expecting a skills course, more specifically a troop skills course. And even more specifically, outdoors skills course. I always wondered why they thought Cub Scout and Venturing leaders were also invited. Many are disheartened by the course because they are let down from the expectation. And I respect that. The BSA probably needs better outdoor skills courses under the troop (leader?) theme, but it's hard enough for scouters to find the time to do the courses asked of them now. I did teach a Council level Patrol Method course that I wrote myself. Adults also found that concept challenging. I know some councils suffer from bad staffs that don't follow the course material. I say that because the material is written so that the each staff member very nearly only needs to read their part during the course strait out of the syllabus. Most BSA courses are written that way and very repeatable, provided the Course Director follows it correctly. As the Council Junior Leadership Chairman, I was very adamant our course directors strictly followed the syllabus. And as I said, I had something like this type of course in my head before it came out because I found the majority of unit problems were a result of not understanding the goals of the program and not working together as a team. Those were the two typical approaches I used to get units back up to speed. As for the ticket items, I believe they are the key for helping participants understand their personal abilities toward their unit responsibilities. And I believe the heart of the course is coaching the participants in writing their tickets. Personally I believe the Troop Guide ASM is the most important staffer on the team. If they don't get it, tickets in general will be vague and pointless to the participant. I'm sure a few here relate. However, when done correctly, the ticket items part of the course works so well that we wrote it into our Council Junior Leadership Training course syllabus (now called NYLT). If the ticket is written correctly, most of the learning will come from working them. Barry

Yes, this makes unit adults agreeing partners with the parents. I would certainly bow out of that unit. Barry