Eagledad

That might work. Years ago the adult OA sponsor in our district seem to visit our troop meetings a lot more than was expected for a person of his position. A few years later when he and I were part of a team building a Council level youth leadership training course, he told me that he was just trying understand why so many of our scouts had become leaders in the OA. I didn't get into the details of what he learned, but he had became a DE by that time and was trying to pass along some of our program ideas to struggling troops. I guess the question is if what he learned helped those units. Barry

MattR said it perfectly. I wish I could add more to stroke my ego, but he squelch any thunder I had on the subject. To support MattR, we are who we are and changing that runs against nature. Much easier to work with the nature of each of our abilities. The adults goal is to build moral decisions makers by using the oath and law as guidelines. If you do only that much with those boys, my experience is that it will work out. I have a petty good reputation for building productive teams. But in truth, I learned that skill later in life when the humility of my failures beat down my pride. Who doesn't want a team where the aggressive member pushes the team to max performance while the calm member insures a quality product. I think back at our Patrol Leaders who courageously took on the challenge of balancing a patrol of athletes along side their severely learning disabled patrol brothers. I would like to take credit for their success, but in truth, I think I would have failed. I can't remember if the the Patrol Leader earned the Eagle, but the learning disabled scouts did. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

My opinion is National brought in female troop leaders, New Scout Patrols, First Class in First Year, and a same age patrol program in all about the same time. Did those additions effect the units and the basic troop program? Dramatically in my opinion. National added Tigers to the cub program and I think that had a huge affect on that program. We need to give credit to units that succeed despite Nationals changes. That doesn't mean I think sending professionals to summer camp would help units. The meat of unit programs is implementing the program during the year, not summer camps. I need pros around our everyday program to see how their changes challenge Us. Barry

Frito chips

Praying for peace and healing. Barry

I don't agree. I learned over the years that parents pretty much drive who joins scouts, at least until the boy is about 13. At that point parents feel like they did their part. In fact I used to teach the Cub Scout leaders that while it is of the opinion that Scouts is for the boys, in reality the program is driven by the parents and if they want a successful program, they need to listen to the needs of the parents because their sons go where the parents want them to go. That is basically true even for 11 and 12 year olds. When the gay issue was at it's most heated, new parents considering scouts said politics was the number 1 reason they would turn away from joining. Not because they disagreed with the BSA, but because they just didn't want to get in the middle of the debate. Folks are saturated with politics everyday now, why join another organization that is in the political hot seat. I keep reminding folks to look at the Canadian Scouts to see the BSA's future. Not only have the numbers never come close to being what they were when it was the Canadian Boy Scouts, it is also a much different program that isn't as much out door oriented or character based. There were several discussions even 15 years ago that if the program were to go more progressive, it would have to get away from faith based morality values. The Girls Scouts have already done it. But God will be taken out of the Scout Oath and Law. History of the YMCA is another example of the direction scouting is going. By the way, when I explain what the changes that we are proposing the BSA is going to make to old timers like my dad, they don't consider it the same program. Boy Scouts of America is dead as far as their concerned. I'm not far from that to be honest. Barry

Agreed. And they had a good run because of the passion of the volunteers. If the BSA were only manned by paid employees, it would have folded years ago. Which leads to another thought; until the last 15 years where I lost track, the major source of revenue and assets for the BSA came from alumni. In fact I read several years ago the BSA used to brag, that other than religion, it had the largest alumni support of any volunteer organization in the U.S. Maybe even the world. Rumor is that the BSA lost that bragging right after the gay membership change. Who knows, you know how rumors go. But for volunteer organizations, alumni asset support are like stock holders, they hold the organization accountable for its performance. If the alumni bail on the BSA, what leverage is left to hold National accountable? Barry

Smaller, better? Before political correctness was driving decisions at National, BSA's largest membership decline issue was it's program. The Cub Program alone looses over 75% (I think it's more) of it's families before they even get to the troop age. None of the program changes I have seen or experienced in the last 25 years addresses the issues forcing the decline. In fact, the changes and proposed changes actually require more adult volunteer time, not less. National hasn't shown and inclination of going leaner and meaner. I don't see how taking a large group of boys sponsored by a religious organization improves that outlook. Barry

LOL, not one scouting organization in North America increased membership after it switched to include the other genders, lifestyle and non religious (3Gs). Accepting girls will make progressives happy, but it will not fix the membership or revenue struggles. In fact it will likely exacerbate the problems for the near future until National adjust the program to fit a more urban lifestyle. As for civic organization vs. religious institutions, the political environment is discouraging civic organizations from getting into the outdoor youth programs. They will likely decrease their support instead of increase. Ironically the religious institutions took on the BSA because their missions are similar for youth. The religious institutions, more than most civic COs, have the most motivation for a Scouting program simply because of the the BSA mission. I think what the progressives really want is to change the BSA Mission so that religion isn't a critical element of the program. But going that direction will only add to the heated cultural tension, so it won't increase membership or funding either. What scouting is today is as good as it will ever be. The future is less boy run (youth run), less outdoors, and less personal decision making. Barry

I'm asking NJ to give the advice so we (at least me) can see where and how he thinks this should be handled. Funny, I'm curious how a scout can become life in this troop without much camping. How does that happen? That the scout manages to earn Eagle under the rules given by the BSA and guided by his troop leadership is no surprise. So how did the discussion turn to the OPs son not being worthy of Eagle? What can we expect the parent to say when his son is attacked? Barry

So you advise the parent to stop the process of their son earning their Eagle. Just quit? There are better ways of making a point without attacking the OP. Splain it to me NJ. Put yourself in the OPs shoes first, and then tell him what he should do? How do you think a parent should react when a bunch of faceless strangers attack their kids? The opinion could have been brought out differently. Barry

I agree 100% with you. My struggle is that the thread went from helping answer a question for an Eagle requirement to a judgement whether the scout is deserving of the award. When the American generals were getting ready for the Normandy invasion, they specifically sought out Boy Scouts to lead the troops in the invasion. I seem to remember that they were actually looking for Eagle Scouts, but it's an old Scoutmaster minute and it very well could have been first class scouts or even just scouts. But here is the point, the two reasons they wanted scouts leading the forces was because they had leadership experience and first aid training. Number of nights camping was not even considered. My point is there are multiple qualities that can set Eagles on a higher status. Judging a scout short of an award based on one quality when little else is known about that scout is disrespectful of all scouts. The opinion could have been made without judging the OP's son personally. Barry

This very same thing happened with a home school troop. They took over and the troop went into a high pressure Eagle Mill program. When we approached the leaders, they told us we were just being bias. The one advantage to that troop was their sons' Eagled by age 14 and those adults left. Barry

The only time my sons complained (as well as my wife and daughter) was when I talked too much about scouting at the dinner table. To give the whole family a break, scouting discussions at home were very limited. Scoutmasters have so many responsibilities that giving their sons special or higher priority over the other scouts would be challenging. I worried more that I wasn't giving them enough father time on scout outings, especially at summer camp. I enjoyed high adventure treks because I was only a team member, not a scoutmaster. That gave me a lot more one on one time with my sons. I'm not sure they noticed the difference, but I sure did. Barry

This happened to us as well. Barry

The OP didn't ask our personal opinion of what makes a good Eagle, he asked for help on official nights of camping. Barry

That's pretty interesting and it got me thinking that moms were the most hard core adults in our troop who wanted men leaders in front of the boys and a pure patrol method program. In fact, when I recruited CCs, I would look for the adults who supported my Boy Run Patrol Method philosophy the most and they were always moms. Makes me wonder if a National President who is also a mother will be tilted more toward a unisex program as well as Patrol Method. Barry

Do a search on "Woods Wisdom Program Guide". I don't believe it is published anymore, but it should help with your question. There are couple on line. Barry

The article is about noise in general, not just technology noise. Low noise in the wilderness should be encourage and practiced, but Scouts in general struggle with noise in the wilderness. Short of gagging them, getting scouts to hold a quiet tone in the wilderness is, let's say, challenging. I guess if the adults need an excuse to enforce a no phone policy, this article would help. But I'm not sure that is honest. What happens when an adult yells across camp to get someones attention or answers their own phone. Ask me how I know. On a side note, I took a trip with three other adults in the Boundary Waters just a few years ago. I never saw that much wildlife on my previous trips with scouts. Barry

I can assure you that the scouts are respected equally as the adults. If they have a suggestion for an off camp activity to enhance their summer camp experience, they will find willing ears here. I don't think you are reading the posts. I wonder if you assume the strict rules of camps. We ask for special favors and request all the time without any problems. Barry

That was unscout-like at the very least and role models a bad example of patrol method. Question: if I could complete a round of golf in two hours, am I good to go? Barry

MattR's whole post has some really good advice. All I can add is that you approach him as a mentor willing to be there when he is willing to need you. The actions of a mentor are generated by the request of mentee. If the scout's heart isn't in it, he isn't requesting any action on your part. Barry

This isn't something new, our district was dealing with churches dropping units 25 years ago. Sometimes church leaders find it's not worth the effort to support the youth group that doesn't hold to or even struggles holding to the values of the church. The problem we had with such drops is getting the church to consider a new unit with more like minded adults. They generally don't. Barry

You said it best, "rules". We treat adults as adults and keep and open mind to outside request. We don't apply any rules on the adults accept that they not get in the way of the scouts' patrol method experience. Does it matter if a fishing enthusiast father fishes on camp property or a well known stream nearby out of camp? What about hiker checking out a nearby off camp trail? In the bigger question, why should you care what the adult is doing on their time if they aren't required in camp? It has the appearance of control to me. Rules? Yah rules. As I said, I changed and matured a lot as a scouter and a scoutmaster. Would I consider a patrol requesting an activity outside of the camp program during summer camp? You bet. I didn't used to be that way, but as I stated earlier, I learned to focus on the needs of the scouts instead of the needs of my ego. If the scouts are proposing activities and ideas that promote scout growth and patrol method maturity, I will jump on it in a heartbeat. Has it happened at summer camp in my time? No, but I sure would be open to it. In fact if it's a really good idea, I would invite it as future ideas because I have seen how much those kinds of suggestions have improved our overall patrol method program. If for example the whole patrol is working on a golf MB and an opportunity came up for the patrol to play around at a nearby course, yes I would consider the request. Of course there may be some limitations like only a 9 hole round to fit within the daily camp schedule. So yes, wouldn't your patrol summer camp experience be more enhanced by such an opportunity? We get way to entrenched on our personal view of the scouting experience when we should focus more on what advances the goals of scouting. Trust me, I know from experience how hard it is to take our personal ego and expectations out of the equation. But as you learn to give up some of that control, you will be rewarded by a program where boys can't wait to come to do scouting stuff in your troop. Rules? Quit thinking in rules. They can bind a program. Barry

Let me refer you back to post #28 "Maybe, but I prefer different strokes for different folks. Typically 95% of our scouts goto to summer camp, which includes scouts 14 and older. Camps never questioned us when we reserved a separate camp for the adults. We may not agree on the subject of adults at camp, but our scouts enjoy the way we camp." Why would any troop in their right mind change a part of the program that produces a high level of success? Our adults don't go to camp to specifically play golf, but neither don't we force stringent requirements on the adults during camp. They are adults after all using some of their hard earned vacation time away from the whole family. The least we can do is have an open mind to personal request. In truth most adults do stay around camp, but not because we require it. The scouts are on their own for the most part, so the adults simply aren't required. As I also said, I believe summer camp is a great opportunity for scouts to practice intense patrol method scouting. Should we care what the adults are doing if their personal activities aren't effecting the scouts' experience? On the disrespect comment, I'm kind of at a loss for understanding why you as a scout disrespected the adults. If you are enjoying your camp experience, and the adults don't hang around the scouts during camp activities, why would you care what they are doing? I'm not sure a single scout in our troop could even comment on the actions of one single adult during the scouts daily summer camp activities. We trust the scouts to be responsible while on their own, maybe they respect us for that trust. Barry