Eagledad

Nope, she was frustrated of posters who interrupted discussions of pragmatic world dialogue with speeches of idealism. Idealism is the vision. Experience is a pragmatic measurement for correcting course back to the vision. Preaching idealism to the chore is not pragmatic, it is an emotional outburst. She was a college level teacher. Her point is that preaching without the balance of pragmatism forces the vision farther away. Barry

Over time we found this to be quite frustrating as well. We tried several camps and they all work about the same. So we asked the patrol leaders to kind-of retest the scouts to get a book sign off. I know that is a big taboo on the forum, but it helped our program by shifting the integrity of the skills onto to us. We also don't push advancement at summer camp, we push fun. The new scouts still take some of the skills classes, but don't feel pushed to earn rank by the end of the week. Our program typically provides skills sessions on most campouts all year long for any scouts who request, so there is no do or die expectation needed at summer camp or MB fairs. Also, along with a couple badges like swimming and camping, we ask scouts pick jsut plain fun MBs. And we find that new scouts typically add a couple of easy fun badges during the week as they find their schedule will allow. Summer camp for the adults is more about patrol method than advancement. Summer camp is typically the first time boys are given the independence to make choices and to learn by those choices for several days at a time. I've told the story before about the new scout who skipped all his classes for stuff that was more fun like swimming, biking, and so on. No big deal to us, but his mom volunteered next year to go to camp and make sure all new scouts went to all their classes and come back with some kind of rank advancement. She was not happy that her son, who Eagle two years later, was behind most of his friends in advancement. She was kindly asked to stay home. LoL Barry

The average patrol leader back then was either driving or in drivers ed. So our scout leadership was very mature. We always had a lot of dads camp with us, but we rarely saw them. I'm not sure what they did all day. But scouting back then was different. It was a guy thing where even the dads like to hang out. The program was more boy run as well because adults back then trusted youth independence. Parent didn't worry about kids back then the way they do today because the community as a whole was safe. We talk a lot of idealist patrol method today because so few adults work that kind of program. But that was more of a default program back then. Boy run wasn't a buzz phrase because boy run was the norm. Barry

Same here, only our bus was orange. Had all the windows down driving to Philmont. I don't remember it being cold, but then Oklahoma doesn't get as cold as DC. Barry

Ah, I see. Thanks. Sounds interesting. Barry

LOL, I remember a few years ago on this forum another liberal scouter expressing her frustration that members here were incapable of pragmatic discussions. I guess she was right. Barry

Did you grow up in Bethany Ok? Sure sounds like the same troop. Barry

One of the goals in our program is to continually challenge the scout so that he continually matures. Most or our scouts have matured by 15 or 16 years old to where they need the kind of experience that desertrat describes. We even had a couple of 14 year old JASMs because their maturity warranted it. It wasn't a right of passage, but more higher learning. I don't think we had the JASM position in the 70's and I don't remember what we called scouts with JASM level of maturity. But I had so much respect for them because they were super scouts to me. We were a big troop, but we didn't have a lot of Eagles. Back then it was Arrowmen and JASM scouts who had our deepest admiration. Barry

Ahhh! Music to my ears. Barry

Yes, we all have theories of how National is going to change. Honesty, I am so tired of discussions of how National is going to change. Can't they just lay back quietly fixing the internal problems for a while and allow the dust to settle. Sheesh. Barry

Ok stosh, thanks. Barry

They also get really hot in the sun. The discussion has been mostly focused on the water and mud part of the treks, but the feet are also exposed to the hot sun during long paddles between portages. Barry

I'm wondering if the town halls are really more about telling than asking. Barry

We have a small trailer donated for our high adventure trips. We found that the gear coming home smells so bad, a trailer is preferred. Barry

This is interesting; that is a lot of conferences. I have a completely different perspective about MBs, so I'm curious what you discuss with the scouts before and after they complete the requirements. I used MBs as a tool for scouts to practice making independent decisions and working independently with other adults without Scoutmaster oversight. Of course I work with new scouts to insure they understand the process of finding counselors, communicating with them and filling out the paperwork properly. But they pretty much have that down after two or three badges. After that, I'm pretty much out-of-sight out-of m-mind. I personally think the Scoutmaster signature shouldn't be required after a scout completes the requirements because why should Scoutmasters care? I'm not saying my approach is better, just different. So I'm curious to learn what you discuss with the scouts before and after they complete the requirements. Especially the more experienced older scouts. Barry

This is a good discussion. The forum used to have many discussions about ranks and awards way back and they are a good review of what the books say instead of what we often assume. Thanks for the review, qwazse. As a result of these kinds of discussions (reviews), I got in the habit of calling Star through Palms "awards" instead of ranks. Award just seems to fit better to me because scouts in our troop are respected by their maturity and experience, not their rank. Not that rank shouldn't reflect a scout's maturity and experience, but sometimes rank is thrown in the mix of requirements for an activity or position of responsibility simply because it implies a seasoned well experienced scout, when in reality the "award" only acknowledges completing a list of requirements. The Eagle "award" is highly respected in our troop, but we have a lot of First Class, Star and Life scouts who are very respected for their experience and maturity. I hope we haven't brought any less honor to the Eagle and Palms than they deserve because we sure have a lot of them. But at the same time, those awards are not perceived as the pinnacles of our program either. Barry

If the adult leader is asking a forum for the answer, I would guess nobody is reading handbooks. Barry

I'm comfortable with the lessons I learned from our patrol method program. But as always, I will be open minded when you report back to us after a few years experience of scoutmastering 50 or more scouts. Barry

Managing money for a volunteer organization is as much a learning experience as learning to manage a boy run program. And, managing funds for a troop of five scouts is nothing like managing money for a troop of 50 in a single patrol method troop program of independent patrols. It just isn't the same. As the adult side grows and matures with patrol method in a large troop growing larger every year, the units philosophy of funds and savings will change as well because experience tends to push toward improving and streamlining the process. This goes as much for the scouts as the adults. My advice in these kinds of matters is for the adults to sit down and discuss what life lesson they want the scouts to experience. Then work from there. How does the troop expect to raise funds and how will the money be distributed among the scouts, troop, equipment, and so on. Each program is different. I have yet to see a troop that didn't change part of the process every couple of years to accommodate for changing needs. Our troop grew from 15 to 100 in seven years. Managing money in a boy run program that large requires understanding of goals and process of applying the funds because the unit that size handles A LOT of money. Whether it's the patrols or the adults doing most of the managing, everyone (parents included) needs to be on board of the process. Barry

My experience is different. Parents want the Eagle, once that is accomplished, they pretty much back off. But some scouts enjoy completing MBs and keep going. I think bling is condescending because it implies a reward without effort. The effort to earn a MB is the same after Eagle as it was before. Personally I'm glad each scout finds his ,so called bling, in our program because he is doing scouting stuff. We had a couple of scouts obsessed with having the lightest back packs. Another obsessed service projects. One scout loved planning activities and another liked creating outdoor recipes. They were going above and beyond everyone's expectations for their own personal enjoyment, IN OUR SCOUT PROGRAM. Is racking up a lot of MBs really that hard to understand. As for the National's recognition change, I wish they would leave well enough alone if for only the reason that a scout could have the same experience (bragging rights) as his grandpa. Of course Eagle requirements have changed over the years, but it is still pretty cool to see three or four generations of Eagles from the same family standing together. Barry

This is the same reason we prefer jungle boots over hiking boots. Jungle boots are typically designed to drain moisture out of the boot, most hiking boots do not and may or may not repel the moisture at all. I will say that cheaper the hiking boot the better for draining, but we have had scouts come home with their Walmart hiking boots being held together only by duct tape. Socks are just as important (if not more) for repelling the moisture away from the foot. Your feet will likely always be wet, but at least the skin will breath compared with cotton socks. I personally like Smartwool socks, but there are many brands of socks with materials designed specifically to push moisture away from the skin. They dry faster as well. Barry

It can be argued that when cynicism is pointed at other people, it is not being friendly, courteous or kind. It's nice to know we have a place to dump when we have a bad day, but there are limits to that as well. Barry

Hammers looking for nails This post came at a time I needed a laugh and I'm still laughing. Thanks Matt Barry

So then, why even change? Wouldn't you like to know the motivation for it when there isn't a call for it as far as I can tell? Barry

We eventually learned to have a meeting with the parents for this very reason. Summer camp is the first long term separation between the parents and their son and parents struggle with it just as much as the scout. So we told them that we understand the anxiety between the parents and the scouts and gave them basically the same guidelines on your list. We asked the parents to encourage their son to have as much fun as possible because they wanted to hear lots and lots of stories. It helps a lot. Barry