Eagledad

Probably true, I don't really understand how advancement would drive the practice of the law, but I'm always surprised how leaders think about the program. However, we did try to demonstrate the differences of our decisions once in a while. I would give the SPL a box of tootsie-roll pops to set in the middle of camp with the instructions that anybody can have as many as they want provided they only take one at a time and leave the rapper and stick in the trash. If a scout is found with more than one tootsie pop, or a discarded rapper or stick was not found in the trash, the SPL will take the box and give it back to the SM. It took a couple of campouts for the first box to empty. I never saw a box again after that. We did other simple demonstrations as well so scouts could see their decisions in action. I don't like calling them tests because they were really more of opportunities to learn how oneself would choose without any outside intimidation. And hopefully change from some of the choices they made. Barry

We had several hundred scouts pass through our troop over the years I was a scouter. I've worked with all kinds of boys of different personalities, but we never had a single theft in the troop. I think that one statistic alone gave me a lot of faith in the values of the program. We had dozens of instances where scouts approached the senior scouts or the adults claiming someone had stolen some of their property. It just seems to be human natures first natural reaction. But as we gained experienced, we learned to point out to the scout that theft in the troop was very rare. We suggested the scout ask his patrol help him search for the property because it more than likely just misplaced. And it was EVERY time. The stuff scouts lost and found at summer camp was actually comical. Now I know that we were likely just lucky, but I can't help feel that the patrol method and the practice of the scout law in large part deserve much of the credit for the trust in the patrols. This is a disappointing discussion for me because I know the scouting program works. And yet we are shown in this discussion several examples of scout behaving badly. I don't have a good response for how to change the trend, if it is a trend. But I do believe that a lot of scouters are running their programs wrong. Now I wonder if we need a course in developing street smarts in our scouts, because my scouts would certainly have been naive today. Barry

I'm not sure this means much because there are a lot more unit leaders around in these camps to prevent the aggression Scourge experienced. Our troop worked by a motto that we developed our scouts maturity so that if the adults didn't show up, their behavior wouldn't change. Scourge's experience is exactly what we are talking about. I'm not going to say our scouts would never embarrass themselves with bad behavior because the whole idea of the patrol method program is that we hope they learn proper boundaries from their poor decisions. But I will say we gave them a lot of rope (independence) to fail within our program. I have said here many times that the troop experience is the real world experience scaled down to a boys size experience. We want the boys to fail in the troop program so the lessons they learn help them mature for the real world. From a cultural perspective, I wonder if that is the problem with today's society. Barry

Col., my apologies for my first post. I didn't mean to post it, but I hit the wrong key in my effort to get out of the editor. When I edited it after it posted to remove the content, the editor would not accept my changes, I don't know why. I sent a note to the moderators. Since you brought it up, I'm not sure where exactly the crux of the problem lies, I have a few stories where the female (both adult and scout) members of the BSA behaved badly (in a sexual aggression context) as well. I am truly disturbed by Scourge's post and embarrassed. Not as a male, but as a Scout. If I were the SM of those boys, there would a realignment process in order. But I feel this is bigger than just a BSA event. And that is what really bothers me. I am the grandfather of an 18 month girl. What do her parents, as well as my future grand son's, have to look forward to? I want to add that I am impressed by Scourge's controlled reactions to these boys. Someone held up the reputation of the programs values. Thanks Scourge. Barry

Do you believe the boys will behave better? Barry

I just commented last week on another discussion that youth imitate their role models. So many adults even on this forum want to blame it on "boys will be boys". Someone else said it here and I agree, I don't think scouters today take the oath and law seriously as part of the program. "Adults will be adults" and the youth are watching. Barry

Please read what you just wrote: "Boundaries and separation promote bad behavior as those on the other side of the boundary are bad or less." Bad or less? As I said, adults set the culture of behavior. A patrol of boys is an environment where boys are safe to make choices of behavior so as to learn from results of the choice. Choice isn't a boundary, it's freedom. Expectation is the guide that decisions are measure from. If youth don't have expectations of their behavior choices, then they have nothing to measure right or wrong. Barry

Shessh, youth mimic their role models. We can't say that "scouting is great because scouts learn from their decisions" in one sentence, and then follow that with "boys will be boys" in the next sentence. Bad behavior has no association at all with "boys only". The adults are fully responsible for the culture in the scouting unit. That goes for girls and boys. Barry

This isn't a response to stosh, but to those in the discussion who like to throw out single word opinions of some in the discussion. Chauvinism is used today more to disparage those of which the accuser disagrees than to define ones actions. If that weren't so, then why not explain how they came to that conclusion? Lazy? Disparaging and name calling seems to be the cultural norm these days for giving an opinion. We only have to watch the news to see how acceptable hostile accusations have become. I guess folks feel safe using derogatory expression today because most discussions are not face to face. But for me, it's ten times worse on a forum where "friendly", 'courteous" and "kind" represent the epitome of right behavior toward all people at all times. I take offense to chauvinist being thrown out in this discussion because most here have spent considerable time explaining in detail their opinions in a courteous fashion. Throwing out one single word in response to what was otherwise a civil discussion is anything other than friendly, courteous or kind. Folks who know me on this forum know that I use the word integrity a lot. I don't know why, but I detest hypocrisy. I say this because sometimes I sit in awe wondering if some of the posters here talk to their scouts the same way they respond to forum list. Not just in politics, but just in general scouting discussions. A quick google of chauvinist: excessive patriotism, blind patriotism, excessive nationalism, sectarianism, isolationism, flag-waving. Those here who truly believe some of us are self-serving in our opinions, then respect the forum with and friendly explanation instead of using a single word to express your feelings. If you desire to get respect, then show respect. I am intrigued with your post stosh's. Your thoughts makes no sense to me. You don't mind scouts going coed, but the only reason your here is because the organization isn't coed. What? Barry

I wasn't looking for any specific answer really, I was just curious how you felt about it. I value your thoughts on this subject because you have an extensive youth and adult experience. Not only do I think you look at your personal experience fondly, but I gather you value the father son bonding memories as well. You have a lot invested. Barry

Good post Mike. I'm giving you a green up arrow for a well thought out post. However, I look at the Canadian Scouts as an example of what happens to a traditional program that switched to a more politically correct agenda. They have never come close to the numbers they had 25 years ago. Maybe National just wants a moral victory. Barry

BSA going coed is just a theory, so I'm curious NJ how you feel about the BSA going coed if your theory was found not to be true. I have a few reasons why adding girls to stop the declining membership is perplexing. Granted, my engineering mind thinks more in the big picture and I'm not sure National works in any kind of picture, but: Adding membership to reverse declining membership is like the Titanic taking on more passengers to bail water faster. Does fixing the program to at least stop the decline not seem logical? I find the idea of parents wanting to move their daughters from the broken program of the GUSA to a program that is loosing it's own membership ironic. I don't agree that going coed will serve more youth because as qwazse pointed out, the girls are being served in other youth outdoor programs. The BSA is simply trying to take more from the other programs. Has anyone considered that some donors might not support a coed program? Barry

I laugh because I experienced this very scenario on my Webelos son's first campout, except mom ordered the Webelos leader (me) to make the boys get out of the tree. I was saved by her husband who explained the situation. But the scenario was repeated ten minutes later when the boys walked into the ankle deep stream to chase baby frogs. Welcome to boyhood mom. I have not discussed this subject with my sons at all until this Sunday while my 30 year old younger son and I were waiting for the movie Dunkirk to start. I said, "the BSA is proposing to go coed". His response was, "No place is safe for boys to hang out with boys anymore". Nothing more was said by either of us. Barry

And the group should take your words as profound because you have always presented yourself as open minded? I have personally replied that you have no integrity with me and shouldn't with the forum because of the hostile style you present your opinions. Nobody is surprised that your opinions on whatever the subject or discussion always fall left. And that is fine. OK, we are who we are with our words measured in worth by our reputation. But I'm curious, how does your style of defending your opinions on this forum not come under the heading of partisan hack? Barry

I think you mean On script, don't you?

Neckerchiefs and all. Really cool. Barry

Words of a true Scoutmaster. I wish I was still teaching Scoutmaster Specific just to barrow this phrase. Barry

Same here, the garter was just part of the uniform, no big deal. Same with the beret, the Thunderbird patrol wore them and they were pretty cool. I remember the knee socks (no garters) were going out of style around 1995 and only the adults with scouting experience were resisting the change. Kind of funny, the socks got shorter and the shorts got longer. Thank goodness, short shorts complemented very few adult scouters of either gender. On a side note, back in 1998 our PLC asked if they could go to Olive Drab BDUs for the official scout pant. As I always did, my guidance was read their Scout Handbook and do what they felt was right according to the scout law. They didn't like that answer and asked if they could approach council for approval of the BDUs. Of course, I was actually proud that they were creative in going over my head for "official" approval of the BDUs. But count me as the most surprised when council said YES. Anyway to my point, as we watched the scouts March in this years 4th of July Parade, it was my wife who noted that the official BSA pants today look almost identical to those BDUs. Barry

There is certainly some of that, but sports is just easier to schedule in a busy personal life schedule. The practices are routine and games only take a couple hours. While Scout meetings are generally routine, campouts and other outdoor activities usually require days, which usually get's in the way of something else in the scouts life schedule. Our troop was very lenient with sports, which is one reason why we were popular. But a strict coach or troop policy can force choices if one of the programs doesn't give a little. We had a lot of scouts in band. If the campout was far enough away, those scouts didn't show up on a campout until Saturday morning. You would be surprised at how bothersome that is for many Scoutmasters. And band directors take a dim view of only playing for half a game. When a scout is being tugged on both ends, scouting is usually the looser, so it by default has to be the more flexible. Barry

Kind of funny, I have a strong opinion on this subject because I feel that any change takes away from the growth opportunity for boys. But as I read all the responses, I forget about the boys and kind of like the ideas of providing a place for girls. But then I remember back to what I think going coed will do for the boys program and jump back to a strong opinion against coed. I need to quit reading this thread for my own mental health. Barry

We don't usually have an issue of the SPL not going to summer camp. They work hard and the troop pays their camp fees. But, the experience is so desirable that many scouts wanting the SPL position only run for it during 6 months that include summer camp. The SPL is first in camp and last to leave. He deals with almost all issues and goes to all camp leader required meetings. It's a great experience, but a lot of work as well. Knowing how much responsibility is required, the SPL knows to choose his ASPLs wisely. They also get their share of practice. Barry

So the meeting is more about telling then asking. National has no integrity with me. Barry

Ah! Gotcha. Yes, but that isn't really what UCs are tasked to do. They are supposedly trained to be very hands off on advising process and practice. I think there is even a part in their handbook on how to bite their tongue without showing blood. I can also see the problems of coaches taking to much of an active role. It would have some challenges. Barry

Good idea, but I would need "All the above". I'm just giving concerns depending on the discussion at the moment. We had a couple of these mothers. Part of their conflict is they felt participating with their son was interupting the male role model experience that they valued from the program. That isn't on your list either. Yep, and it is even more complicated by National's reputation of acting without listening. It appears to me that nobody trust that National will do the right thing for the right reasons. I have been suggesting that for a long time. But it has to be done right. The previous WoodBadge put the participants in ideal patrol method environment and it failed. Adults were going back trying to duplicate their WB experience, not philosophical basics of the patrol method program. Adults need to understand how making independent decisions in the patrol environment is the driver to character growth. The main issue is boys go into the patrol method stupid. Adults go in with life experiences. Adults know how to build teams that work where young ignorant boys have yet to work that in their mind. The stress of learning to work within the patrol method process is the catalyst for character growth, not the scout skills actions themselves. Adults fail because they don't let the patrol method work to the point of stress. One idea I would like to try the is unit coach idea. The coach is an experienced Scoutmaster who works with the adults in the troop to understand how and why the program works. Barry

The BSA has for a very long time been a target rich environment for predators. The outdoor arena along with a patrol method theme are tempting to those looking for quiet one-on-one opportunities. I've been told personal stories that go back to the 1950's. And we had some recent local situations as well. Now throw females into the mix along with cultural diversity issues, and you have a nervous population trying to push past it's fears. My personal experience example as far as women in scouting are concerned goes back to the cubs. When I was working to increase our Webelos crossover from 50% to a goal of 75%, I found the biggest part of the challenge was keeping the moms in the cub program. Moms had no trouble running the Wolf/Bear den meetings because they are basically arts and crafts. But when they grabbed the Webelos handbook and saw how much of the activity themes were outdoor skills and camping, they bulked. Add to that most of the Bear leaders where burning out, and you have a mass exodus of adults for the Webelos program. I learned that the Webelos age part of the program have always had this issue, but the scouting community expected dads to take over the dens during their sons Webelos experience. That worked fine for a lot of years. I'm not sure when, but the dads started backing away leaving the moms stuck. Huge drop outs after Webelos is the result. The average mom doesn't have any outdoor experience and isn't really interested in learning to tie knots. Yes, the BSA offers training to help Webelos leaders build confidence in those areas, but that requires an a couple days of learning to tie knots along with sleeping in the woods overnight. Are you starting to see the problem? Yes, there are some mothers out there that are attracted to the adventure side of the scouting program, but "Not Very Many". My wonderful beautiful Mrs. Barry didn't mind camping with my also lovely daughter so long as the Girls Scouts camp provided Air-conditioned cabins and cooked meals in an Air-conditioned mess hall. She didn't even like calling it a mess hall. Cafeteria is more to her liking. One of the reasons I'm against coed scouts is because my experience with several female Scoutmasters hasn't given me much hope that they will push Patrol Method or an Outdoor program. We got along great and I enjoyed working with all scoutmasters. But the reality is that most adults don't push past their fears or uncomfortableness (if that is a word) of situations. Adults without patrol method or outdoor experience rarely develop the troop program much past a Webelos type of environment. The program is pretty adult run at the very least. That is real world, not hypothetical apprehension. I was one asked to advise a new troop of five female leaders with 40 new scouts. That troop after a year wouldn't even rate as a good Webelos program. Bringing in coed youth will bring in more coed adult leaders and dilute the experience base. The program will naturally get farther away from outdoors and patrol method. Not only have I watched this happen, the engineer in me says it's just logical. Barry