Eagledad

I can't believe I'm saying this, but for the first time since I've been in scouting, I believe it is time that the volunteers take an accounting of who these people at National are and their real motivation behind the policy changes. Maybe it's time to strategize an organized accounting (resistance). Maybe a trip to Erving is required for a show of opinion by those who give one hour each week. Barry

Those who say such things don't understand the power of unity or belonging. Did the football players or baseball players dressed in a scouting uniform during their game? Even the brief moments of belonging on a sand lot team that was just divided into shirts and skins provides some sense unity and brotherhood. The uniform is very important to the patrol method. Who doesn't feel a bit of pride and unit when a group of scouts sits near them at a restaurant? If it weren't for the uniform, how would we know they were brothers? Barry

We also had several example of high altitude sickness, there are many different types. One scouts became ill with High altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) on a Philmont trek. There is quite a story of how the crew got him down and can be found on the internet somewhere. I was not on this crew, but they made stretcher out of their crew equipment and carried him down 6000 feet to an ambulance. It took a full day and their were aided by several other crews along the way. The scout is fine, but the trek identified some heart issues. But the most pronounced clear case of altitude sickness I ever witnessed was with a scout at Camp Alexander which is 8200 ft. This young man was a wonderful scout who enjoyed the program and had a great sense of humor. This kid had been looking so forward to summer camp. But he was so homesick (so we thought) that the camp staff suggested we keep a 24 hour watch on him for his depression. Nothing we did changed this scouts very poor attitude of the camp. It made no sense to us until we were driving home and just as soon as we drove down past 5000 ft. The old bright happy scout came back to us. It was just as qwazse said, if you haven't seen it, you don't quite believe it. That experience occurred early in my scout leader career, so it prepared me for several altitude sickness situations in my future. Barry

That's good. Barry

Great suggestion. As a result of job transfers, we had three really good CCs leave the pack in 18 months. There was no impact to the program because each CC selected an assistant/replacement when they started just incase they were to suddenly leave the unit. That worked well for us in both the Pack and Troop. Barry

That is an interesting perspective. I'm not suggesting your are wrong, you are probably right. But this is the downfall of the current BSA as we know it because I think it's crazy any scout would stay in the program only for the Eagle when he would otherwise get out. I think the BSA has lost it's soul. So maybe it was inevitable that it turn into an after school program. Barry

A campaign hat by itself at any distance doesn't say uniform or Boy scouts. Start with a shirt and unit numbers. Then go from there. By the way, I don't know any council that doesn't have access to funding or retired uniforms to help poor families. There are plenty of local scouters willing to help. I have even offered to help units on this forum. So I agree this article appears a bit disingenuous. Barry

Eagle, what do you think is the motivation behind parent #1? Barry

The whole post feels of emotional ramblings, but since Scourge implies boys without girls in the scouting program don't know how to act around girls, what about the boys who aren't in scouting? And, if boys don't know how to act without girls in the scouting program, what about the girls in the girls scouts? Seems we have solved most of the worlds problems simply by the BSA taking the girls from the GUSA. Will these same people hound the GUSA with the same reasoning? Barry

I got to the part where Walk in the woods use the word sexist and all interest or integrity in the post was gone. Do you need anymore proof NJ that this move by the BSA has some political motivation? Neutering the religious part of the program isn't far behind. Barry

My prayers and thoughts to the family and friends. Barry

I personally believe this is a natural result of a good patrol method program. When individual scouts are forced to work for a common goal, they learn the best and worst of each other and either accept them or never bond as a group. Our program is mixed age patrols. While most new scouts join patrols with one or two friends, their previous Webelos group is broken up. That has never been an issue like many here assume. I believe the older scouts have learned how to quickly draw in the new scouts as part of the group. The older mentors make up for any insecurity of missing the old group. I remember this quite well of my youth experience. I've told this story before, but the SE read a letter once at an Annual Council meeting of district leaders. In the letter, the mother told the SE how much she appreciated her sons troop because he was immediately accepted by his patrol. She wrote this letter three years later after he was elected the Patrol leader. She explained further that he was so awkward that he had no friends outside of the troop. They even had to threaten their son's school with litigation because the teachers treated him so harshly. I could go on and on with her examples and accolades, but the point was that she knew of no other program where a group of boys with as many different personalities could be accepted as brothers. The SE didn't mention the troop number to the group, but I knew that mother and the situation because I was the SM at the time. While I did know her son well, I knew very little of his life outside our troop until this letter. I remember he was challenging, but the patrol never complained. To give you an idea of his mental challenges, the scout at age 17 was in my Philmont crew and one of our challenges was that we had to constantly remind him to drink water and fill his water bottles. That is a pretty basic understanding for survival for most of us, but it was very challenging for this scout. I remember thinking that I appreciated his patrol a lot more. If the patrol is given the right expectations (Aims and Methods) and given the room to make decisions and adjust their patrol experience from the decisions (patrol method), then individuals will either separate from each other or bond together as one. If the scouts learn to base their decisions from the Scout Oath and Law (selfless choices), then bonding becomes a natural conclusion. We had several challenging scouts in our troop, some with learning challenges, and a few with physical mental challenges. A deaf scouts was our first Eagle. Most of these scouts were accepted and aged out of the troop. This is why I am so passionate about the scout program. Last I heard about the scout in the letter was that he was a nuclear engineer on a Navy submarine. Barry

I developed a reputation for recruiting for and building working teams. So over the years I would get a call now and then for either fixing adult teams or creating new ones like a new district training team for the new training syllabuses introduced in 2000. Success of a team is dependent on finding the multiple skills to complement the goal of the team. But just as important is bringing in temperaments that complement the members of the team. Anyone who hangs around scouting very long will run into those volunteers who just don't work well with youth. They have fantastic other skills that move the BSA program forward, just not with scouts. I'm not saying cchoat is one of the individuals, my point is that the Scouting program needs all the volunteers the BSA can get, but not all of them need an experience with the youth to be valuable for the program. In fact, one of the reasons I like Wood Badge is that it helps adults identify where they can fit best to advance the program. Barry

A successful discussion with a scout in regard to behavior is successful when the scout shows that he knows the difference from his displayed behavior and your desired behavior. Once a scout knows the difference, then the burden of making the right choice is on him. Your goal isn't getting the scout to admit his mistake so that he satisfies you to get out of the conference, your goal is to get him self motivated to make better choices in the same situation when nobody is watching. That is a very difficult task. Each scoutmaster has their own style to achieving the goal and it requires practice and patience until you find that style. But in general, asking the kinds of questions that gets the scout thinking and reflecting why the choice of the behavior is right or wrong. A lot of Scoutmasters don't like to use the Scout Law and Oath to balance a Scout's behavior because they believe it's not reflective of the real world. I am just the opposite, I believe the Oath and Law can be applied for measured in some way with all decisions in the real world because they are selfless outward actions. So I like to use the Oath and Law for scouts to measure their choices. In general, most undesirable behavior is self-serving. My goal is to get the scout to reflect to me the risk of his decision for harming those around him, AND how a different choice takes away that risk because he is considering them first. It's hard for someone to break bad habits, but if we start to consider the harm to those around first, then we have a reason to consider making a better choice. Once you have a scout thinking in that level of maturity, he makes choices by how it affects others, not by what he can get away with for himself when the adults aren't around. So I guess in the big picture, it's not so much the confession of doing wrong that is the primary goal (although it helps), but planting the seed of considering the risk of the decision to those around him. You know, Trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave clean and reverent. You can also approach some subjects from your youth side. The insect repellant fire starter is really cool in how it works. Most all of us have done something simular. And its' even taught as a useful tool in some dire situations. So I wouldn't approach it as a bad thing, but something that requires maturity to use and demonstrate correctly and safely. Fire and lightning are my to big fears for scouts. So we spent a lot of time on each to satisfy the scoutmaster (me). But we also had instances of hairspray being played with at patrol camp fires. The PLC handled it, but when the SPL asked for suggestions, I suggested they visit the fire ward at a hospital. That didn't happen, but they did bring in a nurse from the hospital. I just wanted the scouts to learn the risk of their behavior and habits of fire safety. I don't know how much that worked, but when scouts asked me about it, I asked them how those people in the hospital got burned? Was there a scout around to help them make the right choice? We did allow our scouts to play with fire some, but they had to learn how to demonstrate it safely which forced them to learn everything about the propellant as well as how to demo it without risking those around them. They learned a lot, but had a lot of fun in that learning process. So use your youth side to get them to understand the fear and harm of their behavior and then ask them to show them how to do it safely. They will have fun doing it. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head. Barry

All true. For me, fun is short for mental and physical "satisfaction". Frankly leadership can be stressful and not fun, but very satisfying. Our SPLs are so warn out by the end of their term, they typically don't run again because they want a break from the fatigue. But after working with the new SPL for three weeks helping get them up to speed, more often than not they admit that they wished they had run again because they learned the hard part all ready. And typically they run again at the next election. I found that satisfaction comes when we push the scouts to the next level of challenge, whether its leadership, managing, planning, and even advancement like finishing Eagle requirements. But it also includes more physical activities like backpacking, canoeing, and so forth. One way that helps a troop mature at the older age group is to turn the whole troop into an adventure troop. Start planning a couple of backpacking troop campouts. Canoeing, rappelling, and bicycling. They don't have to be far away or elaborate campouts. Just something adventurous. We once planned a campout where the patrol had to bike, hike, and canoe past 16 skills test check points. They hiked five miles, bikes a bunch more and canoed I don't know how far. They were so tired by Sunday that they skipped the monthly Capture the Flag game. They never skip capture the flag. But if you were to ask the older scouts the best part of the weekend, they would say it was coming up with the idea and planning it. Satisfaction at the troop level for us means challenging every scout at their maturity so they feel fulfilled when the reach the new goal. And at the same time, the young scouts are watching and learning how to be the mature men they see from their older scout mentors. Once you get the momentum of the program going, it pretty much runs itself. And those troops will likely have 50/50 ration of younger and older scouts. Barry

I don't know stosh, you are a lot more hands on with the Scouts than we are. The Scouts run a simple process where each scout can apply for a chance to be a leader. It's not rocket science and I don't think the Scouts need a masters degree to pick leaders. They have their handbooks if theywant new ideas. It's such a small part of the program that We don't see the big deal. The one time I proposed something different, the PLC politely voted me down. They like how they pick leaders. Who am I to say otherwise. Elections are a big deal for you. Maybe because your 5 Scouts are so young. Our troop is more mature, so are adults don't get involved. Barry

Nice theory, wished it that way. Barry

Not really, doesn't matter the term or the process for determining who's in what positions, what the Scouts learn from their choices and performance is determined by adults. Seems many of us get stuck in the weeds with the small stuff when it's the big stuff that makes the difference. Some of us focus on details, some of us focus on the big picture. Either way, understanding Aims and Methods makes the scout growth process easier. Barry

Adults who are excited with the program typically have the energy and enthusiasm for developing a creative fun program that keeps the scouts excited even through five years. I was told by experts in the field of human behavior that the average volunteer of any volunteer organization gives about 20 months before burnout starts to set in. That is not even two years. The real problem if you get into the meat of it is that burnout sets in just before Webelos. And the Webelos membership increased drop out rate shows it. Barry

This a sound approach, and in general, I agree. I guess my experience has me bias because the volunteers tend to hesitate, or not act at all. The hesitation gave one adult the time to loose his temper a few months later and at aggressively to another scout. Professionals are required to act immediately. Getting council involved doesn't guarantee action, as I said our council encourage the unit to take care of the situation. Taking care of the situation can mean just discussing it. Council might not feel obligated to check back later. This is my experience, not my presumption. Barry

I personally don't support this route based from the experience that the charter rep reports to the charter leader. Not only does that take time, the people involved may be less likely to act. And that is if the charter wants to do anything. Go back to my statement that by standers (or people not involved) don't like confrontation. Hopefully their first action will be to contact the SE, which is why going to the SE makes more sense to me. The DE is ok, but they will be involved anyway if the first call goes strait to the SE. However, I don't like to go around district, so I called the District Commissioner (DC) just before or after contacting the SE. Abuse is one of the few reasons to call the SE first. By the way, typically what the Council will counsel the unit to deal with the situation with them (Council) standing in support. So it always gets back to the CC and COR one way or another. But depending on the order of reporting is how much time for action to happen. I have seen CCs quit because they didn't volunteer for these kinds of issues. Finally, there is a fear among everyone that this can go too far and create more problems for the adult responsible than intended. But that shouldn't be our problem. The adult has some control. Some will say the SMs physical action wasn't an act of abuse. But the problem it sounds like from the OPs post is that the SM acted in anger. The anger and how he controlled (or lost control) is the issue in my opinion. Barry

I've written a books worth of stuff on this forum for this very subject. I will try and be brief to keep it short (yah right!). At the Cub Level we must understand that while the program is for the boys, success depends on keeping the adults interested. If the adults (parents and leaders) are having fun and enjoying the program, there is a 99% likelihood of the boys reaching Webelos and crossing over to the Troops. In my research, the primary reason for the membership drop at the cub level is adult burnout. Burnout is the loss of motivation and energy to provide a fun program. Five years is way way way too much to expect from volunteers. At the troop level there are two areas of large membership losses. The first is the first year scout. More scouts are lost in this age group than any other age group of scouts in all of the BSA. The reason I found is because the huge jump of a 10 year going from a adult guided lifestyle to a patrol method independent decision making lifestyle is terrifying. Imagine a boy who may have never camped in his life being told to pack up for a campout with a troop of strangers. These boys need some time to spool up the confidence that they are safe in the troop even while setting up a tent in the deep dark woods. The other larger problem I found in my research are the loss of older scouts. I believe the success of the whole troop program is based from the success of the 14 and older part of the program. The over all problem with the 'majority' of troops is they tend to drive their program toward what I call is a First Class Advancement program. The vast majority of the troops activities are designed for scouts to advance up to a First Class level. Actually many troops drive it toward Eagle, but it is the same problem. A troop that develops activities for advancement works out OK for 10 to 13 year old scouts because they are basically followers and the activities that to them are new and fun. But scouts after puberty have a different natural instinct that drives them more toward taking care of their gang and controlling their future. They simply have the same instincts as adults. The problem with most troops is they don't know how to use that instinct because they still think of older scouts as adolescent boys. So the adults typically assign the older scout to only teach, what, FIRST CLASS SKILLS. Yep, the older scouts are repeating their first three years all over again. Older scouts want responsibility in developing boys into men, not babysitting scouts in classroom type settings. The problem is we are told over and over to let the older scouts teach so they are doing adult responsibilities. But teaching in a class room type of environment isn't really an adult responsibility. It is just plain boring. So the older scouts drop out and the older scouts of the troop don't typically last longer than age 14. Troop adults need to develop the program so that First Class skills are not developed in class room type setting, but instead through passive actions during adventure activities. The program needs to get away from advancement themes so that the scout develop more of their survival skills like backpacking, canoeing, camping, hiking, bicycle riding and on and on. You know, the fun stuff. The older scouts leading those activities don't feel trapped in the same ol same ol program of previous years and they aren't babysitters. The program needs to be developed so that younger scouts learn "everything" from the role models of older scouts. That may sound simple, but it goes against the nature of a protective parent. It takes as much practice for the adults to stand back as it does for scouts to step forward. But in short, it comes down to a fun program. And it's the older scouts who define fun, not the younger ones. Like the Cub program, if the older scouts are excited about the program, the younger ones will follow. That is a very brief in my limited time description of my experience and research of how units succeed and fail. I can fill in the gaps if you would like more detail. Barry

One other thing, in most cases (not all), the adults knew they should step down and did it voluntarily. Likely this isn't the first time they lost control. You are doing them a favor. Barry

Adult bystanders don't like confrontation, so they tend to stand back quietly and let these things go by without accountability. As long as the SM (any adult) gets away with aggressive behavior toward adults or scouts, but especially aggressive physical behavior, the behavior will continue. I've seen it several times. I have been personally involved with removing adults away from scouts. After my few experiences with aggressive adults (both male and female), I believe you must contact council via the Scout Executive and District Executive and District Commissioner as well. I would start by calling and telling Committee Chair you are contacting the SE and they can either assist in you are stand back. After my experiences, I believe aggressive adults have to be removed from a position that puts them in harms way with scouts. If they can't control themselves, certainly nobody else can. The problem with scouting is most of us can control ourselves when we are fresh and in low stress environments. But working with youth outdoors naturally creates a stressful environment, especially difficult boys who are also tired from lack of sleep and activities. Add lack of sleep and fatigue of outdoor activities pushes some adults over the edge. They typically only loose control for a second, but someone can get hurt in that brief outburst. I think you are in a tough spot, but protecting the youth is most important. Barry

I'm not promoting the idea of Rovers, but the most troublesome scouters I have worked with were adults who didn't have a youth scouting experience and were using our unit to get that experience. In our council, probably half the Woodbadge staffers are these adults. If only there were a program that would give them an outlet for getting some of that experience. Barry