Eagledad

Yep, gotta agree. A zebra with spots can't change to stripes. I've seen a SM and ASM equal side-by-side as a team working the same plan for the same goal. But the SM is still given respect for the final word. Good or bad, the SM is the gatekeeper of the vision and program, even it appears there is no vision and no program. If change is really wanted, the troop needs a new SM. Barry

A vision statement describes the organization as it would appear in a future successful state. Barry

Ah, I see. Barry

Your reply is complicated to my simplistic explanation. I would assume that the new SM has bought into the program in the OPs situation and has already developed some relationship with the PLC. However, this is where you and I differ in the program. I believe the Troop is an adult program used to develop boys into moral decision making adults. The adult leaders (usually the SM) have the vision for how the program works in developing the scouts into moral decision makers. Not the scouts. That being said, in our troop SM discusses the vision, mission, aims, methods, and scouting values for the program with each new PLC. Everyone knows whats going on and why and everyone is invited to request a change if the SM cannot justify how each part of the program works toward the goal. Barry

Yes, I agree that good role models of both genders is important at the Venturing age group (post puberty). The brain works differently for this age and not only is it important to have good role models of both genders, but the scouts are now biologically adults and should be treated as such. Which I know is your style of leading. This is the age where male and female role models show how well adults (both scouts and adults) work together. Personally I like Venturing Crew adults and youth working closer together to represent a team as apposed to adults and youth. The adults have a specific responsibility different from the youth, but that doesn't mean they don't work together to accomplish a common goal. We worked with our senior scouts somewhat the same way when pushing them in more of ASM roles. Barry

Most new Scoutmasters start with idealism and a vision. The idealism blinds them from outside advice until experience beats them up a little. Good ASMs stand back in the shadows waiting for a quiet moment to ask if they could help. If you see the SM getting overwhelmed in a situation, volunteer to take a task to lesson the chaos to give him room to think. Don't add a new idea to the confusion. ASMs help the SM melt their idealism into wisdom without changing their vision. Barry

Role models. Role models are key for boys to learn behavior and same gender role models magnify that growth. Barry

At what point in the program do your adults feel the scouts are no longer kids who do stupid things? Barry

What is the etiquette for a scout contacting a MB Counselor or the fly-fishing speaker for the September meeting? Barry

Hmm, morally bankrupt. Coming from someone who admits little patience with religion or God, I don't know what that means. I'm sure you are a pleasant fello in person. As for the rest of your post, I didn't say nor imply any of those thoughts. However, I have been consistent in saying that many here are willing to sacrifice program quality to go coed. Yes, I think for some parents, going coed is a willing sacrifice for convenience. For some it is a willing trade for cultural ideology. And for some the sacrifice is the price for balancing the economics. All I ask for is honesty in these discussion while defending your position. I believe Boy Scouts to be the best program for building men of character and leaders of integrity. I have been a youth leader, sports coach, and a Scout leader. I fully appreciate the challenges of helping youth mature, and I believe the Scout program is one of the best designs for getting adults up to speed to develop young boys into mature moral decision makers. Anyone who reads my post here knows I am passionate about the growth these young men get from the program. And as a result, I very much believe that the willingness to sacrifice any part of the program is self-serving and nothing less. Barry

The rumor was fueled not to long after National implemented the New Scout Patrol and Venture Patrol. The NSP starts troops in the direction of segregated age based patrols on a natural easy path of moving to aged based programs like Venture Patrols or even Venturing Crews. I once ask a professional about the rumor and his response was he had not heard that, but it could easily be one of a flurry of ideas thrown out at National. If I were to guess why the program hasn't gone that direction (if National were truly thinking of going that path), it would because 2/3 of newly created Venturing crews fail in their first five years. Simple economics. Barry

Makes sense. There was also a rumor about 20 years ago that National planned to end the troop program at age 14, thus forcing scouts who wanted to continue scouting into Venturing. Going coed would make that an easier policy change. Barry

Scouting is the only place for a youth to learn how to interact with diverse groups? Youth spend their whole day interacting with diverse groups. Where does it say that scouting's goals are to teach interacting with diverse groups? Scouting's goals are to guide young men in the habit of using law and oath in all their decisions "ALL THE TIME AND TO ALL PEOPLE. I am convinced by my personal observations that a moral decent mannered "role model" has far more impact on a boy developing habits of a moral decent mannered person to all people then mixing that same boy in diverse groups hoping for the same conclusion. Of course the answer is making sure even coed programs have moral decent mannered role models. But as I learned and witnessed, human nature doesn't have the equal respect for opposite gender role models. It's a simple truth that women are different from men. Learning those difference in the nurturing atmosphere with the proper role model encourages the kinds of natural behavior that is required for a positive interaction. I detest the implication that single gender organizations are morally wrong as suggest by many so call progressive minded idealist. I detest the idea that a single gender youth organization is less capable of building men of integrity. And I detest the sacrifice of a program that can have so much impact on a boy going into manhood simply because of pop-culture idealism. I also detest allowing a small group of individuals to direct this change in a program with the tradition of building integrity in its youth without feeling any accountability is required. Barry

Apologies on the commas. I don't think the vast majority here believe that, but it was mentioned by a few active scouters. Which is why the discussion it bizarre to me. How can adults who really think that Boy Scouts is bad for boys become Scout leaders. Trolls maybe. Scouting works very well when it is used as designed. But I truly wonder how many units today function as designed. I sure don't feel any love from National with their support. Maybe it's right for the BSA to turn into an after school camping program at this time him our culture because it seems to have lost its soul. I hope the name is changed so that we scouts and scouters of this program can identify our experience under different specific program. Barry

My friend is also a Scoutmaster of a very boy run program who teaches ages and stages for the council. He is an Eagle Scout with other youth honors, so he clearly understand how the outdoors works. But as I stated earlier, he says the role modeling aspect of growth is hugely important to troop age scouts. Which is why the Adult part of the methods is so important to the program. He explained that while female ASMs are fine for a program, the youth brain searches for role models to learn behavior and tends to discount role models that don't appear import to that youths future. A scoutmaster is by default considered the dominant role model (for both Boy Scouts and Girls Scouts). It's fairly complicated, but his point is that Troops should be very picky about selecting adult leaders because the impact and nature of their son's behavior growth depends greatly on those role models. But what I find offensive in the tone of the discussion is the personal opinions are driving policy changes over accepted professional practices. It's not like Scouting has never talked about role models, character building, and scouting values of oath and law. Now all that is suddenly nonsense. Quit honestly, I rather folks just admit they support the liberal doctrine and don't really care about growth and building character. I can't can accept that type of resoning because at least it's honest. Barry

You lost me on the first. My expert says that pre puberesent youth (both GIRLS and boy) learn 90% (give or take) of their behavior by watching dominating role models. AND that effect doesn't have near as much impact when the role models are the opposite gender, which is why I'm not in favor of female scoutmaster for a boys patrol. It's no like this stuff is new, there are literally hundreds of studies that support the high impact of girls and boys learning when they aren't in coed groups. I can only conclude that emotion drive adults to act in the against nature. Even worse is the idea that the only way a boy can politely and productively interact with girls is mixing them together on campouts. That makes no sense to me at all. Barry Barry

And your expertise on the subject? Because my child psychologist college professor friend whole heartily disagrees. I think as a culture we are failing miserably because how does a person who lives up to the oath and law at all times not know how to politely and productively interact? Someone else here truly believe that groups who are together for a single interest are dangerous because all they do is conspire against other groups. Is that what Badon Powell was doing by creating BOY SCOUTS. Our culture is a mess. Do we really believe that boys and girls will learn better behavior simply because they are mixed? Especially with adults who think that being coed inspires better behavior than practicing the oath and law. No wonder National is lost. Barry

I'm curious of what the progressives on this forum, who claim all males scouting is sexist, think of this quote from the Girls Scouts. Barry

It's a way of teaching communication through speaking. I'm not sure of the concern, it's also how the scouts contact MB Counselors, and adult assistants like camping assistant, advancement, BOR leaders and speakers. Our troop has done this 30 something years. Barry

Hashtagscouts explained it perfectly. Barry

I don't understanding your post Mike, doesn't a coed program include dad (male leader) and Mom (female leader) with their son and daughter scouts all in the same troop? Is bringing Tiger Cub sister or brother really much of a stretch for a family scouting program? Barry

If I were still a Scoutmaster, the title of the SM Minute would be, "can a person follow the Scout Oath and Law and still act out with hatred?". Barry

I am assuming that National isn't thinking that way, but just saying "Family" implies an image to inexperienced adults that doesn't align with the program manuals. I'm not sure the image can be helped. It's hard enough changing parents perception of a patrol method program after coming from a Cub Scout experience. Now we are changing to a likely program of brother, sister, mom and dad all campout together in the Troop. Bringing along little brother and sister cub scouts is easily going to be considered an acceptable part of the program as well. qwazse is right on target. Barry

I don't think so. The Girls Scouts, dressed basically the same as described above, follow the tan shirt Boy Scouts in the 4th of July parade every year. The girls look like a rag tag unorganized group thrown together overnight for the event. I've noticed that even todays movies and TV shows dress the Girls Scout characters in the old traditional green skirt uniforms. I expect because the old style uniform identifies them as Girls Scouts more than the home made looking t-shirts. Maybe that is why the girls want to join the BSA. I proudly wore my dads early 1940s Boy Scout shirt in the 1970s. Other than the cotton material, it pretty much look the same. Barry

Interesting you posted this. Just this weekend there was a small discussion of the "family" being used now in Boy Scouts and most agreed that it brings images of Webelos style camping for troops. Barry