Eagledad

What about a strait Scout tenting with a gay scout. When this question was brought up during the gay drama a couple of years ago, it was received as a form of prejudice or hate. Is that situation really any different than a male scout tenting with a female? Barry

I'm not disagreeing and I'm sure you are right, but since we pay for our training, how do you imagine the marketing dollars helping? For your pleasure, one of my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpMFkcSn5IM Barry

Different? LOL! We are on the same track. But marketing is about selling a vision, not the intricacies of the process. If you ask the average parent what patrol method is, they won't have an answer. If you ask them the benefits of making independent decisions while spending a weekend in the woods, they will ponder for a moment their child standing near a tent fishing in the trickling stream. Barry

It's time to show parents how the outdoors builds their kids into better adults. At the very least, activities in even the most adult run units can get their kids "safely" away from the computers. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/09/19/teens-grow-up-slower-study/105758486/ ""The lure of the internet – which might keep kids glued to screens instead of out driving and dating – probably has had some recent impact, Twenge said. And more attentive parenting, sometimes derided as “helicopter parenting,†certainly has played a role,"" Barry

Our schools have a day where the parents come to pick up the room assignments and equipment list. We set up a table with pictures, pinewood derby cars and uniforms to attract the kids and parents to the table. We ask them to sign a visit list with their phone number. Than I start calling that night to recruit them. The same people show up to the recruitment night as well, but we have them in an assigned den by that time. I would guess 95% of the families we recruit from the visit day list came to the recruitment night. Barry

I don't know, between this post and your reasoning for discouraging OA, I almost get the feeling your are anti-male. Equalizing the sexes seems to be how you rationalize your hostility. Yes, I know, psycho babble. But I haven't seen much in your post that show otherwise. Watered down? Your program is already watered down simply by discouraging OA. Adult fears and ignorance are the biggest obstacles to allowing growth that comes from making decisions. I get the feeling your weren't a boy scout as a youth. A lot of folks say the studies are mixed. The studies have been around for a long time as well as single sex education. No one disagreed or argued with the facts until recently when mixed genders became fashionable. Watered down has a lot of implications here, but in large the program will loose the foundation of character growth from the practice of moral and ethical decisions. I have watched the program change in the last 20 dramatically away from scouts independently driving their activities to more adult driven activities. I believe part of it is due to a more fearing helicopter parenting mentality. But the other part is that fewer adult leaders have the youth experience to carry over the scouting spirit of the program. The reason we are seeing so much more advancement driven program is because the advancement process for adults is easy to understand and measure. Building character from freedom of choice doesn't have the instant measurement of unit performance like advancement. Stature is also measureable, and since leadership is a requirement of advancement, scouts are getting less freedom to choose how and when they will lead, leaving the adults to drive a program that places the boys into leadership slots so that their advancement will continue. Adults that don't have the experience of character growth by learning from independent choices typically don't trust the notion of the process. So, that is why adults without a youth experience naturally gravitate toward the measureable part of the program. We are watching the progression of the troop program changing to Webelos III. Barry

Character is not different, but the techniques and environment for developing character can have a huge impact for developing character. I guess we can rehash this again, but it's been mentioned several times in these discussions that non coed education has a positive effect in development. I guess the question is really more of how much watering down of a program is worth going coed? I don't know the answer, I'm sure it also depends on the SMs. But is it worth the risk? Barry

We developed a general set of benchmarks for all the positions in our troop. However, the expectations (benchmarks) are purposely set a bit generic because we ask each scout to define his own set of benchmarks that his will use to measure his performance. He writes his benchmarks in his book so that he and the SM can refer and discuss them later. We do that because benchmarks change as the unit grow and mature, and to tailor the benchmarks to each scout. BUT remember, growth is developed in the journey, not the destination. Sometimes scouts find they aren't very good with the particular responsibility. I have had many scouts grow considerably in character while failing to meet some of their benchmarks. I guess what I'm trying to say is for me, expectations (benchmarks) should be more of a guide for the SMs than a check list. Barry

I didn't have trouble at the Cub age because I knew to just keep the cubs moving. If they weren't exhausted by the end of the meeting, I added more jumping, yelling, clapping, and cheering somewhere in the program. Personally I feel Cubs are unfairly expected to behave like adults at Pack Meetings. IF I saw scouts talking to each other during my meetings, I took it personally that I was doing something wrong, not them. My goodness they have sit all day in school and then sit for another hour at meeting that is supposed to be fun. The scouts had so much fun at our meeting that their siblings came to join in as well. As for the Webelos, they are called the Cub Master assistants. They helped with all awards and led the flag ceremonies. They also were expected to perform at least two skits and three run on skits. They loved it. Scoutmasters told me that they never had a scout from our pack that was afraid of getting in front of the crowd. I believe that by the time our cubs left the pack, they had enough experience and confidence to lead any troop campfire. We taught our den leaders to have at least 20 minutes of free time where the scouts are running. Most of them had a basketball goal that was used heavily. I suggested sacrificing arts and crafts for physical activities is always a preference when boys are acting up. If they can't focus, just send outside with the basketball and they will go home thinking it was a good meeting. I only had two Webelos meetings a month, but they were 90 minutes long with 45 minutes of game time. I never heard a single complaint and had 100 percent participation. Boys just love to run. But to Fred's post; how he describes discipline is exactly how we taught the patrol leaders and senior scouts. If a scout is acting up, warn him once. If he continues, send him out of the room or activity. Don't yell, don't argue, don't debate, just quietly ask him to leave and deal with him later when you have the time. The youth leaders liked that method because it took conflict out of controlling behavior. If the scout was still a problem, then the SPL , JASM or SM might be brought into the picture, which was very rare. At the adult level, we learned over time to get the parents involved sooner than later. AND, LOL, we made the scout call their parents to come in early and talk with the SPL or SM. I think that scared them more than anything. As Fred implies, just nip it in the bud. It's better for everyone including the misbehaving scout. Barry

My complaint about OA today is that it allows members who are too immature to understand the distinction and priviledge of the organization. Friendly? Is that like the friendly the atmosphere of taking a test in school, CPA or Law Degree. Practicing the discipline of self control may not have a lot of jokes or laughs, but I certainly wouldn't describe ordeals as unfriendly. In it's day the honor required the maturity for understand the nobility of service and taking on the role with full enthusiasm. In the day, every scout that participated in the ordeal not only wanted to be there, they felt very honored. I beleive that comes under friendly. To bad hazing has lost it's general definition. It wasn't very long ago that Council was suggesting that scout units not recognize scout's birthdays because the act of standing in front of a group while singing happy birthday could be interpreted as hazing to some scouts. And of course there was the silly holding a cub scout up-side-down to award the Bob Cat. The boys begged for the ceremony. Sigh, sign of the times. Barry

My struggles with adult leaders in the last few years are that they are guided by ignorance more than the facts and this is just one example. OA is an honor organization that at it's heart is about serving and service. How scary can such an honor be? Arrowmen when I was a scout were super scouts. The best of the best, and they were the epitome of servant leaders. Who knows where Snow Owl imagined the misinformation about, but the scouts suffer the most because not only does Snow Owl not approve of OA, they are restricted from even considering the organization. I am not surprised that fear of pulling the scouts away from unit activities is Snow Owl's major concern. I have seen a lot of events lately that have convinced me that we live in an age of helicopter parenting. I had a discussion the other day with a scout leader who believe that the majority of scouters today are more of the helicoptering type of adult leaders. So it's not just scouting that is changing from this generation of parents, it's helicopter scout leading, helicopter coaching, and helicopter teaching. Scouting is an outward activities program that forces scouts to make independent decisions and that kind of program is being pushed out of the culture. Kids today live in a bubble created by adult fears and that bubble is getting smaller. I recently read and article that was explaining how the combination of technology (personal cell phone media) and our over the top fears for our children have led to the anti-free speech movement that some of the college campuses are experiencing. Kids today find restricting free speech easier than dealing with the challenges of free thought that comes from free speech. What are these kids calling themselves, "snowflakes"? Sounds about right. This reminds me of a local a group of boys who created a sand lot baseball team that have been in the news lately. You may have even seen them on Good Morning America. Can you believe it, a bunch of boys in the neighborhood get together weekly to play baseball, and it becomes national news. Well these boys have become popular enough that adults are coming to watch. But they are held by the rules of no cheering, no coaching and pretty much stay out of the way of the boys (I don't remember adults at any of my sand lot sports). You would not believe the uproar from some of the local adults that these boys are playing without any adult supervision. Helicopter baseball fans? Sad. You think that is over the top? Go read Snow Owls post again. Snow Owl is not alone. Snow Owls imaginative fears may even be typical. It's been trending this way for a few years now, but discussions like this throw cold water in my face that snowflakes are the future adult leaders of the BSA. Some folks think it's unfair that I view the future of BSA as an after school program. But after school programs were created to keep kids safe and out of trouble until the parents got home. Everything I see is that an afterschool scout program to keep their kids out of trouble is exactly what todays parents want.Well, that is what Badon Powell was trying to do as well. Still, Badon Powell was no Snowflake. Thank goodness that my family of men, from my dad thru his grandsons, were scouts when scouting was about developing boys into men. Barry

I don't mean to be quoting quazse so much, but he has been having his moments. It's funny you say that, my son and his wife are both 10th grade English teachers at two different high risk schools. My daughter in-law's school is being recognized a lot lately for the high rate of graduates continuing to collage. When I asked him why some schools perform better than others, he said it is "expectation" set by the school staff. My older son liked leadership because he likes to change the status quo toward his vision. My younger, more introverted, son hates the idea of others waiting on him for direction. Yet, he enjoyed responsibility because he likes making things neat and tidy. It wasn't until my older some gained some wisdom that he started looking for workers like my younger son because they always reached his vision. Much like me, my older son found that he is an idea guy that doesn't get much done unless he has a good crew of doers like my younger son. Troop leaders need to understand the difference so that they can help scouts find where they fit in that big picture of life and nurture them to continue to grow. I have found this to be a common characteristic of successful patrol method boy run programs. As our troop matured, our Eagle rate also started to grow with the membership. It was noticeable enough that when the DE visited a meeting watch our program, he asked my opinion. I basically gave him the same quote as qwazse. Our scouts are given small responsibilities when they join the troop (Grub Master and Cheer Master). As small as the expectations are, they are still challenging for the age and maturity of the new scouts. We mentored them to used the whole patrol to reach the goals of their responsibilities. Scouts are encouraged to reach out to their buddies for help in all their PORs. Eventually it's just a habit used in all their activities, not just PORs. And without realizing it, they are all of a sudden Life Scouts needing only a service project to finish Eagle. I'm not bragging about our Eagles, I am not an Eagle driven person. But the right habits of character make the path of life easier. For example, one of the results of using the many-hands is discipline. Over time our scouts developed the habit of when a scout was behaving badly, everyone around the scout was held responsible for his actions. Every scout was held accountable for the behavior (good and bad) of the scouts around them. As the PLC matured, they took pride that leaders didn't need to yell to motivate other scouts (they saw drill sergeant type troops at summer camp), they just simply spoke in a normal tone because they knew they were supported by the other scouts around them. We adults didn't drive that to happen, it was just the result of quazse's point of using many buddies. That is a big deal because the hardest action for a boy is to confront his friends while not hurting their feelings. But when character of the troop expects the best friend to confront the behavior with support from of all the other scouts, bad behavior gets nipped in the bud. Of course scouts of this age still have their moments of mischief, but reports of bad behavior to the adults drop off considerably. I remember standing in the shadows watching the troop play capture the flag. Nobody knew any adults were around. A 14 year old scout who just transferred into our troop said a few four letter words as he was playing. One of the other scouts said just matter-of-factly, "we don't talk like that here". The transfer responded just as matter-of-factly "gotcha". And that was that, nipped in the bud. Sorry to step on your post qwazse, but you have great insight. Barry

I know this is for qwazse, and I look forward to his opinion. The problem with positions like Webmaster, librarian, historian and bugler is that many units have very few expectations for those positions to hold scouts accountable. Without accountability, there is little growth or learning. For a position to have value in the big picture of the whole program, it needs to have value in contributing to the whole program. If scouts don't see themselves contributing to the big picture, then likely the position isn't really required in the program. Our PLC voted to end the bugler position. It was a sad day for the traditional side of me, but the practical side of me agreed. So, for any position to have values (expectations) in the troop, the SM needs to arrange a concept of skills and habits that develops growth in the scouts behavior (character, fitness, and citizenship). Then those expectations can be given to the scout when he gets the new position so that he and the mentor are on the same page. The mentor doesn't have to be the SM, or even and adult. I developed our JASMs to mentor first year scouts in the Grub Master and Cheer Master position. A good PL is also a good mentor as well. We used those positions to start new scouts in the habits of communication with the patrol to develop menus and skits for the monthly campouts. The mentors guided the scouts in how to communication, and researching for new ideas. The BSA doesn't do a good job of teaching adults that PORs are more about developing character than advancing stature. But if the SM can focus on the character part, the stature part naturally follows. By the way, like quazse, I pushed service projects as a great way to get leadership experience. I didn't give them POR credit, but it was a great way to get noticed by the older scouts for future leadership. Barry

I believe, that you believe what you post. I'm just suggesting respect for posters with other opinions. Barry

I find it curious how you present your unsubstantiated theory as rational and acceptable, while presenting a different line of thought as a purposeful misrepresentation. Shesh. Barry

I worded it wrong. I am not suggesting you were acting arrogant in your job. I'm confident you are selfless and work very hard. But when "my" SPL (or ASMs, or Committee members) suggest that we compensate for scouts who can't or won't make the effort (either by asking them to leave or doing their job for them), then I point out that they aren't letting the program work as designed. If the scout doesn't improve performance or take himself out of the game, he hasn't experienced is responsibilities enough. It is true that a percentage of scouts will fail at expectations and not learn anything from the experience (or want to learn from the experience). But the objective is for them to see their personal limitations so they can make good decisions in their future. My younger (introverted) son learned quickly in scouts that he didn't like leadership, so he stayed as far away from it as he could. Ironically he, at age 17, was delegated the team leader of a non scouting group (soccer team) on the 3rd day of a Northern Tier trek because it became obvious that he was the only person with the kind of wilderness experience to get the crew thru the planned trek. I was told by the adult members of the group that he saved their trip from becoming a disaster. It wasn't so much that he was the natural leader, he just became obvious that only he the kind of experience needed for the crew to complete the trek. But I know my son would have declined going on the trip if he known that he would become the team leader. Even now as an adult, he turns down promotions that require him to manage other people. He doesn't understand that even in his quit understated manner, his style expresses confidence. A lot of people feel comfortable around people like that. qwazse (should I capitalize qwazse?) hinted earlier that the expectations of programs are based mainly from the SM. You and your SM are a team and so your goals should be about the same. I imagine you are meeting your scoutmasters expectations quit well and he is very proud. I shouldn't be so forward in suggesting your troops performance based on my expectations. And I apologize for that. Folks here will tell you that sometimes I go two steps back for every step forward. Barry

Well it's not easy letting failure happen, it goes against our human nature. I'm curious what your SM says. We have a local troop that has a great reputation as a well run troop. It's over 100 years old and the alumni always try to recruit the best Scoutmasters. One of their SMs was a mentor for me when I started as a SM. About 20 years ago this troop of about 70 scouts had two senior scouts that were outstanding leaders. I knew these scouts because they were my son's friends at school and they joined one of our Philmont crews. These two scouts were so good that their adults didn't have to do anything for about four years while they led the troop. Well, when they aged out of the troop and went East (MIT) to school, the troop fell flat on its face. The Troop lost almost half of it's membership in a years time. The simple cause was that these two senior scouts never trained any scout with the leadership skills to perform up to the "expectation" of leading the troop. The two scouts just assumed the next generation of leaders would be as good as they were. But because these two scouts did all the work, the next generation never experienced the kind of leadership required for meeting the expectation of leading a troop. They never really understood true leadership even at the patrol level because the older scouts jumped in for them when the PLs struggled. I don't have an answer to your situation because I don't know your scoutmaster's expectations. But you would be doing it wrong in our troop. What is the worst that will happen if your PLs don't do their job? I don't need an answer, I've heard them all. I'm just throwing out the question for you to consider for a while. But, I would tell my SPL that he is being prideful (arrogant) thinking he is better than his PLs. Failure is more of a teacher than success. The Scoutmaster that the OP is talking about appears to me to be afraid of failure. And because of that, he is afraid to risk allowing the SPL prove himself by succeeding. It's easy doing someone else's work when you assume they will fail. The real challenge is figuring out how to motivate them to rise up and succeed. It's a skill that will be used for a lifetime. I know your doing your best and trying hard. I'm not asking for more because you might be doing the best in your situation. And for that, I'm excited for your accomplishments. Barry

Yep, that's what they all say. The thing is that SPLs shouldn't see themselves as the Troop leader, instead he is the Patrol Leader's working model of a servant leader. I don't know if you realize it, but the Patrol Leader position is the most important leadership position in he troop. There are many reasons why, but as a SM, the PL is the most important position because it teaches a scout more about his character than any other position. There is no position as stressful as the Patrol Leader position if the troop is running correctly. And there is no better motivation to learn new habits and change old habits than stress. A person can only change when they see and feel the consequences of their choices. If the SPL does for them what they should be doing for themselves, then he is robbing the scouts an opportunity to learn and grow. Success isn't a well performing troop under your leadership. Success is well performing patrols under the Patrol Leaders leadership. The more you do for them, the less they will do for their patrol. In most cases, the Patrol Leaders are new to the experience of leadership, so the SPL should be a model of leadership skills for PLs to learn from. And remember, we humans learn best by watching, not by listening. Patrol Leaders watch everything the SPL is doing. So show them how to be a servant to their scouts. Treat the PLC the way the PLs should treat their patrol. Serve your PLC so they learn how to serve the patrol. Run your PLC meetings the same as they should run their patrol meetings. All the PL's look up to the position of SPL, so set the example of servant leadership by "looking up" to the PLs as the main leaders of the troop. Treat them with the respect as the top tier troop leaders and you will find that your humility will be rewarded with the same respect. It's pretty cool to experience really. Sounds like you are pretty good SPL already. I look forward to learning what you gain from your experience. Barry

Something qwazse said reminded me that the main skill I wanted SPLs to practice was delegating. Actually delegating and patience, they go hand-in-hand. But I find that delegating is one of the least used skills by adults. That skill gives the average leader leverage for being a good leader. If the skill can be learned at a scout age, imagine their leadership ability when they are adults. And thinking about this scoutmaster; through my struggles in learning to be a better scoutmaster, I tried to balance my pride with the humility of learning something new from all our youth leaders. There is so much that could be learned in this situation. Barry

I've been thinking this way as well. It seems that no matter how hard we try, the world ends up rotating around us. And yet it happens so often. I received many calls in the evening from Scoutmasters asking me how to remove scouts from their PORs. It is so disheartening when adults see bad decisions as bad scouting. I tried so hard to teach otherwise in Scoutmasters Specific courses, but vanity blinds us from the noble objective. Barry

One of my marketing phrases I gave to visiting Webelos parents is: "The troop program is the real world scaled down to a boys size. We want our scouts to learn from their many experiences of making decisions so that when they grow up, they can deal with situations like waking up to a sick wife, three hungry kids and a boss calling about a deadline. Barry

This pretty much is normal operation for National. We only need to refer to the coed change discussions to find ourselves reflecting on the same thought. In fact, where is the transparency for any changes pushed on the membership. Is there any method for volunteer members to hold professionals at National accountable. Maybe they come up with some of these ideas at the water cooler or coffee pot. I would like to know that my opinion on their performance counts. Barry

Everyone's comments are on mark. The reason we don't react to other kids bad behavior like react to our own is that we think we can make a difference with by lecturing. But we learn after a few examples like yours that we have very little leverage for motivating change of behavior. That is why the better leaders don't try to change behavior, they find ways for Scouts to see the repercussions of their behavior so that they feel motivated to change. Anyway, we learned to quit working around the parents and include them on the team. We talked a lot to the parents basically bragging about and how they were doing in the program. Then when we needed to talk about bad behavior, they didn't feel like we were dumping on them. We are a team and work problems out as a team. Saying that, sometimes the parents weren't willing to contribute to the team as much is required, so it was no surprise that they quit. Most parents are all in, but once in a while, you will have to let the scout go to save your sanity. My advice from hard learned experiences is the same as others here, get the parents involved with their son's behavior in the program. Don't let their kids be just your problem. This is sound advice even in their late teen age years. Barry

I had a similar situation and my SPL assured me he would make sure the event he would be fine without him because he was working hard with the team that was running the activity. I was concerned because this Scout had a past. But the activity when off very well and I was very proud of him. It seems odd the SM wants him to quit at this point. It sounds more like a temper tantrum than mentoring wisdom. Scouting is all about boys learning about themselves from their choices. Maybe the SM has some investment in the activity and is blinded by the opportunity for your son's growth. Frankly letting your son deligate the troop activity is a risk for the SM. The results are far bigger than your son learning from the experience. Especially if your son fails. A lot of folks don't do well with risk. But Scoutmastering at its best is risky because allowing Scouts to succeed (or fail) for the Scouts growth requires understanding the dynamics of the scout program and values. If it were me, I would tell the SM that I see an opportunity he for my son to learn greatly from the experience. I would desire, if not beg, for his understanding and help in giving my son a once in a lifetime opportunity to be a better man that both of us would be proud of. Of course I would guide and mentor my son of his experience, but wisdom coming from his SM would have much greater impact. I envy your son's opportunity and hopes it is the life lesson it could be. Barry

The loss of membership as a result of burnout is so bad that I am willing to sacrifice the Tiger program for better marketing of the Wolf age entry level scouts. I have been saying that for almost 20 years. Barry