Eagledad

Yep, that predictable won't fly. But "purest sense"? Is there a purest sense? Or is there different success stories. Lots of success stories since the inception of Scouts. I can understand one bad experience swaying a mind, but how does that account for all the successes through the history scouting? Do it anyway you want, but don't discount successful programs based from one bad experience of your program. By the way, you posted many frustrations of your sons troop over the years, not just the one. Patrol method is giving scout the independence of making decisions for their own outcomes. How much independence to make decisions did his troop give him? Barry

Well at least you are allowing an evil ASM as part of the solution, you didn't use to do that. If the older scouts are taking over when the younger scouts have the authority, then the SM is doing it wrong. You could ask for ideas because we have some that will help. And younger scout learning to make decisions is very different than younger scouts put in leadership positions. I keep asking you stosh, if mixed age is so bad, how did the BSA and Greenbar Bill survive for 80 years. Different strokes for different folks. Some adults are mixed age kind of leaders, some work better with same age. Maturity comes when one understands there are many ways to achieve the same goal. I find enough challenge in helping leaders understand the basic concept of patrol method without having to debate details. Explaining the basic concept of patrol method is what the OP is asking. Demonizing those who are different says more about your style of leadership than theirs. I did both mixed age and same age and mixed age works better for me. I measure progress of the program by the growth the scouts gain from their experiences in the patrol. A lot of scoutmasters don't believe throwing new scouts into responsibilities beyond their maturity develops growth, so they do it differently than you with great success. Many boy run patrol method troops have great success with older scouts teaching, mentoring and being a companion. Not all discussions have black and white solutions. The forum should encourage ideas from which to choose. I grow tired of the us vs. them chest pounding dialogs. Barry

I'm putting on my Wood Badge Troop Guide ASM hat here (they approve all the Ticket Items). What is your objective with the clinic. Some adults set a goal of signing off a specific number or percentage of badges. I would send that ticket item back and remind the participant that they don't have control of what the scouts will do. On the other hand, if the goal is to provide the scouts and opportunity to earn a badge, then I would only ask for specifics. Putting on my SM hat, I want my scouts to develop habits of character and practice making decisions based from the oath and law. Advancement is the scouts responsibility, character is mine. How will your clinic develop character and provide decision making opportunities? There are two parts in my SM mind to the MB process: First. The scouts are supposed to find a mb counselor, contact the counselor to learn more about the badge, get some personal details like a phone number, arrange meeting times with the counselor, fill out the Blue Card with all the details and get the SM signature. That process forces the scout to think methodically to plan the process for working the mb. These are decision making opportunities that teach the scout how to work a process to complete a goal. During the process the scout practices communication with several adults that also forces a behavior of friendly, courteous and kind. You know, character type stuff. The second part of the badge is working the requirements. Believe it or not, that is the hardest part for young men of this age. They have not developed a discipline of completing process of which they started. I know of a mb counselor who told me that only 25% of scouts he starts will finish their badges without some push from parents or leaders. Scouts learn more from their failures than accomplishments. Your goal is to provide and opportunity for the scouts, NOT TO PUSH THEM TO FINISH. Just build a process of decision making opportunities. Allow them to choose success or failure. What I'm saying is set up your clinic so the scout has to first talk with the counselor, fill out the blue card then get it signed by the SM. Then allow the scout enough room that test his ability to complete the badge once he starts. Personally (Troop Guide ASM hat here), I don't care how many scouts complete the badge, I just want you to provide them with the opportunity to build character and practice making decisions. Do that and your ticket is done. So instead of pushing scouts to come your specific clinic, visit the units and ask the SPL for five minutes in front of the troop to inform them that you are providing a clinic on a set day. Leave some handouts for anyone interested to call you for more information like time and location. There, you provided the counselor and communication opportunity. During their call, inform them that you require a blue card the day of the clinic to participate in your clinic. That forces them to fill out the card and get the SM signature. You have basically followed the BSA Advancement guide. As a SM, you have made my day. Now, as for the instructors, that is more difficult. You want the scouts to make decisions, so make sure your activity station only provides information and the "opportunity" to participate. let the scouts choose to complete the requirement to "your" satisfaction, and them let them specifically ask to get the card signed off. I know this seems a bit silly to some degree, but you would be surprised how much maturity a scout gains by doing these simple actions and decisions. Allow scouts who don't complete the requirements a way of finishing at a later date. In other words, don't plan on being done by the end of the day. Have a way for a scout to call a year later to finish his badge. Some scouts need to grow and mature between the start and finish of badges. As to your Ticket Item, you want a specific end. That end would be closing the doors and the end of your clinic. Not signing off a minimum number of badges. Personally I think the hardest part of your ticket is visiting the units to ask the SPL for 5 minutes and telling the scouts about your clinic. But, I think you will also enjoy that part the most Hope I didn't go off the deep end here, but this is how I coached clinics. To be fair to you, some clinic organizers and Wood Badgers didn't like my recommendations. Barry

Yes, that is the struggle. The Camporee discussion highlighted to me how much different my patrol method experience was in the 70s compared to the scouting program the BSA is pushing today. Same age patrols alone have made a huge shift in how adults perceive the process of patrol method. Patrol method, boy run and scout led, weren't common terms when I was a scout because patrol method was the normal way of scouting in most troops. It's just how it was done. Part of having a successful patrol method program is giving the scouts enough independence that they feel motived to change some of their habits of how they make decisions. But most adults who were kids back then will agree that our parents gave us a lot more trust and independence than the culture of parents allow today. Helicopter parents today are the norm. Adult leaders in the 70s didn't struggle to let scouts make wrong decisions like parents today. So, as a result, boy run is defined in each troop more by the limitations of the adults' fear to let boys make decisions. From Nationals perspective, scout independence is directly related to the cost of liability. So, they aren't all the motivated to push patrol method very far. IMHO, restricting patrols from camping without adults was a liability cost decision. The process of a true patrol method program is difficult for adults today because they really don't want the stress of worry that comes from not controlling the actions of youth. We have become a culture of Helicopter Scout Leaders and we aren't really sure we want to change. Barry

I did exactly this after every SPL election. We added a few bits of information like summer camp dates or something, but most of the meeting was as you descried with a one page handout. All parents were required to attend. But after a couple years of these parents meetings, I think some parents....forgot about them. In my opinion, they couldn't explain Aim, Methods, or boy run, if I were to ask them later. But I think the meeting gave them the trust that we had goals for their sons and a plan or process for reaching those goals. Barry

So I'm curious, why would the scouts, of a SM who is cynical of camporees, even choose to attend one. Given the choice, I'd rather go fishing than participate in an unfair rigged competition. Barry

Agreed, and I'm quite sure your troop is good at not being adult run. But my point is that we each have our personal perception of what is boy run and what is adult run. Except for adults at camp, you and I are on the same page of scouting. As for the discussion of adults reliving their youth, most of those adults in my experience are adults who weren't scouts. Women as much as men. But, lets not confuse them with the adults who just haven't been weaned away from their natural knee-jerk parent reactions. Even the best of us need some practice to turn off the parent side of us when we are doing the scouting stuff. Barry

You missed your calling stosh, you could have made millions as a motivational speaker. Your solutions for a fair camporee are anti patrol method, or anti Greenbar bill patrol style. So in my mind, what's the point? The games aren't rigged, it's just that camporee style competition that was created during the mixed age patrol program doesn't fit for the same age patrol system of todays troop program. Camporees were started when patrols were balanced with different ages. If the participants were honest, the patrol competitions were not only fair, but very productive in developing character growth. MattR is pretty smart, so I expect he has the solutions and will provide us with the details of a successful camporee. But, I do respect his challenges. Barry

Weren't you the one arguing for adults to be restricted from leaving a summer camp. I guess one mans patrol method is another mans heavily involved adult troop. Maybe we are a generation of helicopter scout leaders and just don't know it. Barry

I don't know what stacking a patrol means in this day and age because of aged based patrols. Mixed age patrols are better for competition because they balance the different levels and ages of skills in each patrol. Same age patrols struggle because younger scout patrols don't have the maturity of skills and experience of older scouts. Older scout patrols are stacked simply by default because of the program design, not because they are trying to gain some advantage. So, I guess the simple answer is create competition patrols just to have a better chance. Our district started dumbing down competition so younger scouts had a better chance. But that led to older scout skipping camporees altogether. So, demonstration camporees started becoming more fashionable, but that hasn't brought back the older scouts. Other than trooporees, I have never seen the scouts of a troop get very involved in organizing a camporee. The trooporee we organized for four troops required our scouts total dedication for six months. Our scouts grew a lot in character and leadership, but I wouldn't do it again because it was such a disruption of our program. The logistics of running a camporee are enormous and require a lot of communication and planning. I can honestly say our scouts planned and ran our trooporee of 200 scouts, but it wasn't without A LOT of help from adults who gave a lot of their time. Without direction from either a well organized Crew or OA, I can't see how a boy run camporee could get done. Not at a scale for a district anyways. My advice is pick an interesting theme and then plan from there. Don't ask the scouts t design the plan, but instead ask them for suggestions of the plan. Otherwise you will get bogged down in just the theme because just trying to get number of scouts to your meetings will be challenging. Try to use district meeting where SMs go so they bring their scouts with them. There are some really good camporee themes on the internet. Competition should certainly be within first class scout skills, but in my day, the difference of skills between the men and boys were the bonus points at each event. Bonus points can be created any number of ways. But for example, what knot would be used to tie ropes together for a rescue? They may have just tied the knot, but did they know which knot is used for specific applications. Barry

Your experience is not the same as Back Pack's. And that is too bad because honest competition camporees are a lot of fun and a great patrol method experience. Because of your experience, your troop wouldn't be interested in our Night Camporees because they only want demonstrations. Our night camporees were still competitive. Barry

Maybe, but I believe what killed the competition camporees are the demonstration camporees of today. I think that is a result of same age patrols, but that is a different discussion. Ironically Back Pack, you as an older scout wanted less competition, but I found that camporees in our area don't attract the older scouts because they lack competition. Our scouts chose if they wanted camporees and we did a couple. But they were in retrospect boring compared to our more adventurous campouts. Camporees today are just demonstrations, not competitions. And it's hard to impress active troops with demonstrations. Our troop was a few times invited to be the demonstrators. Looking back and comparing my scouting experience in the 60s/70s to the scouting between 1990 thru 2010 is that the patrols today struggle to get as much practice with patrol method as we got back then. As a youth, our troop required the patrols to spend four hours on a few Saturdays to practice skills for camporees. Camporees back then were serious business. Troops and patrols made reputations at district camporees. But when I look back, those four hours was some of the best most intense patrol method scouting we did outside of camping. It was up to the Patrol Leader to get us at the top of our game. I was never closer to my patrol mates than around the time of camporees, and I was never a sharper scout because we practiced everything from scouts skills to proper uniforming. Everything was judged, so everything was practiced, including making decisions based from the oath and law. It was a great patrol experience. I needed my experience as a leader today to compare and understand the difference. Today it's not only a fight to consider camporees, it's almost a waste of time compared to our troop activities. As a troop, we have planned several trooporees because I find that patrol method is more intense in the planning than in the competitions. Two themes our troop really likes is night competitions and adventure competitions. The night competition starts after the campfire and usually finishes about 3:00 am in the morning. Our troop has organized night comporee competitions under the Star Wars and Star Trek theme. Something about having to navigate through the skills competitions in the middle of the night that adds that much more excitement. How many troops have done orienteering at 1:00 am? The adventure competition theme is where the scouts, hike, bike and canoe through the skills. And that can be expanded as much as you want. We do it in one day, but a Venture Crew in one district does a three day camporee where the scouts have to break camp and backpack to three different campsites. They have to stop for skills competitions along their route. I once planned a similar Camporee for our district where the patrols would be assigned a campsite Friday night and have to back pack five miles to the main town park where all the patrols would meet together. Each patrol would have to find and stop at skills competitions on their way to the park. The public would be invited to park to see scouting at its best, and attended the campfire in the football stadium. I couldn't get it approved by the District. So it is still a dream. From watching the attitudes of the scouts, the only reason camporees hang on today is because the adults force them. And honestly I'm not sure if asking scouts to plan them would help all that much. Our troop does a good job with trooporees, but even those require a lot of planning. The logistics of getting scouts from all over the district to plan a camporee would require a lot of leadership from somebody. Unless a Venture Crew or the OA takes on that challenge, it will fall on the adults. And they are pretty boring. By the way, one suggestion I have for a camporee is keep the adults away from the campfire. It seems adults think scouts are entertained by Wood Badge presentations. Barry

I don't understand the question. Are we talking about advancement or the fun of experiencing the subject of a MB. To tell me they don't want to do MBs is to say there are no MBs that are interesting to the scouts. Really? Are there no scouts interested in aviation, astronomy or cycling? No interest in car engine mechanics? Is there no curiosity of electronics? The troop is doing it wrong. Our troop recruits at least two MB counselors a month to do a short presentation at a troop meeting to raise interest in their MBs. You don't think rifles, shot guns, bows and arrows, or fishing poles sitting on a table doesn't pull the interest of teenagers. Cameras, horse bridles, and auto mechanics tools? How about a telescope just sitting in the middle of a room with a sign that says, call me. Merit badges are fun, so what is the troop doing wrong? Barry

Maybe, maybe not. I had a den of 17 Webelos because I (Cub master at the time) couldn't get enough adults to take some responsibility. I quit the CM gig to takeover the Webelos. One possibility for the OP is pick a designated leader/planner who plans each den meeting and then lets the two assistants run them. While I couldn't find a single adult among the 17 families to lead, I had no trouble finding plenty of assistants to run the meetings from my plans. Also consider what the families are going to do next year when they become Wolves. That is where you should be working toward now. Barry

Smart has nothing to do with it. How can anyone make an intelligent decision without knowledge? You are missing a very big piece of the big picture. But I'll leave that for a different discussion. Barry

Yes, but a decision can't be made until the facts are known, which requires some experience. Scouts generally know by six months (after summer camp) whether the troop experience is for them or not. And that is when they discern whether or not they like boy scouts. I don't know how most boys can make that decision without at least a few months of a troop experience. The Webelos program certainly doesn't give them the experience. The issue that I'm talking about which drives so many new scouts out of the BSA is the shock and awe of jumping from an adult controlled environment to patrol method environment that can blind even the best scouts from seeing the fun side of the troop. Some troops expect new scouts to suck it up and get used to it, while other troops work to wean the scout into the Patrol/Troop environment. Barry

I found working with scouters over the years that the vast majority of them don't really believe their behavior is being watched by the scouts. I give them many examples, but until they see it in action (if they ever do), they don't respect the idea of scouts reflecting the behavior they observe. To your question, if the adult leaders don't believe scouts mimic behavior (especially the adults' behavior), they tend to not be all that concerned of how their behavior coincides with the Oath and Law. It's frustrating to say the least. Barry

The BSA looses more scouts in the first year of the troop program than any other age. The reason is because they step from an adult run hand holding program to being pushed by a lot of strangers to make their own decisions, and that is very scary. Most Scoutmasters are prepared to take a boy who knows nothing about scouts skills and get him up to speed to where he can mumble the oath and law along with the rest of the troop. Where troops loose their first year scouts is assimilating them from adult guided to self guided. It's not so much of getting Webelos comfortable with what is expected, the challenge is getting Webelos comfortable with confronting the unexpected. MattR kind of hinted to that with team work. But also it's getting comfortable with the idea of having to make a single decision that affects their next action. You would be amazed at the number of young boys who rarely decided on what they eat during the day or where to go from hour to hour. Between parents, teachers and den leaders, a boy has his agenda planned out for him from the moment he gets up to the moment he goes to bed. Adults don't even realized they do it, but once a boy steps from the expectation only slightly, the adult will guide them back on track. All the suggestions being given are good. What I did with our Webelos was expose them to larger bodies of people and force them to plan simple agendas. At each den meetings, I delegated a different scout to organize an opening that basically resembled a troop opening where the leader gave command for the flag team to march up and present colors. The leader organizes the color guard and then leds the group in the Pledge of Allegiance, Scout Law, Scout Oath and a prayer. Basics, but repetition over and over while handing the responsibility of deciding who and how the opening will be performed. Along with that, the Webelos also lead the opening at the pack meetings. The two Webelos who lead the open are expected to show up an hour early to help set up the room and work with the a tiger/wolf/bear den who will carry the colors. My intent here is for the Webelos plan and teach the Den what to do. They will give all the commands. Very simple, but all these things are building confidence for making decisions, working with strangers, and preparing for the unexpected. I also directed the Webelos to write, practice and perform at least two skits for each Pack Meeting. Again, they are being pushed to be creative and to prepare for standing in front of large groups. I found that our Webelos got so good that this that they didn't practice their skits until before the meeting. They got so good at creating and planning that they actually got pretty cocky about it. And they enjoyed the cheers from the audience. Along with those activities, I asked a troop if we could have our Den Meeting with their troop the for about three months before crossover. The den would stand with the troop during opening, then we would go do our den thing. But I did this to get the scouts used to being around boy scouts and the more chaotic environment of patrols. We rarely participated in troop activities, but I did find the patrols found some of our Den activities more interesting than their patrol actitivities. As for camping, I found that Webelos age boys need about two campouts to gain the confidence of sleeping in a tent without adults in the dark scary woods. I didn't worry so much about the cooking or other patrols skills because the patrols will teach that in what ever troop they join. I just wanted them to have enough confidence to confront the unexpected. Camping one night with a troop would be fine too. But the key is less adult hand holding so the boys get a feel for making the decision to go forward by simply moving one foot forward. They don't need to become expert boy scouts, they just need to not be scared of the next thing, whatever that thing is. Barry

The camp swim test can be very intimidating for weak swimmers because the process goes fast trying to get hundreds of scouts finished by the end of the day. I have watch even good swimmers make themselves sick worrying about it. We learned to try and identify weak swimmers (and low confident swimmers) before summer camp and take them to a pool to help improve their skills and confidence before leaving for camp. And nobody is more of cheer leader for scouts controlling their advancement, but swimming skills are required in so many of our troop activities that we really push hard for scouts to reach a confident level of skills so they aren't left out. Barry

Thanks captain obvious. Here is what I know, it will work out because the adults will force it to work. Will it be the scouting that I grew up knowing and the scouting my sons experienced? I don't thinks so. How could it, the adults will force it to work. Barry

Well, you are talking about the troops becoming patrols, which they basically are anyway. The first question is how to do the PLC? SPL? Do the troops participate in one single program, or do they go on the same campout but do their own program. The adults will have their own challenge of who is running the show. A huge risk I see is the patrols become more dependent on the outside leaders and as a result loose their ability to separate when the time comes. I've seen this problem in regular troops. One the plus side, if the troops could function independent enough to rely on their own leadership, it would be a really good patrol method program. Thinking through it, its the adults that will have to hash out the details because if one SM finds himself dealing with the scouts in another troop, pride may be the first reaction. Some basic rules will have to agreed on. Barry

Cub camping is far different from troop camping. Cub camping is hard work because the “vast†majority of participants don’t have a camping experience or “camping gearâ€. As a result, other than Webelos camping, cub camping requires a lot of preplanning and organizing. I’m all for a course in planning cub camping trips, but BALOO isn’t the right venue. Instruction on cub camping needs to be a totally different session that provides a lot of helpful documentation. There is good hand holding type documentation for cub camping provided for packs at the cub adventure camps like the one at John Zink Ranch near Tulsa Oklahoma. BALOO needs to be training for the other 98 percent of running a pack, which doesn’t include camping overnight. Maybe an evening campfire, but not camping. Barry

The discussion didn't cross any line. Maybe got a little silly, but it certainally didn't distract from the original context of the question. And, a lot of folks don't venture in forums that aren't scout related. The question and answers are scout related and quite useful for anyone dealing with the same situation. Barry

So, we have gone full circle. Sometimes MattR, I wonder if you and qwazse are the same person (complement), because he said basically the same thing near the beginning of the thread. Barry

At summer camp, we would get two campsites, one for the adults and the other for the scouts. They are typically about separated about 50 yards. Barry