Eagledad

Oh, you sure are welcome. It's kind of the perfect commercial. The audience thinks they know the plot, so they patiently watch to the expected conclusion. Only to be surprised with an ending that drives the nobility of the message strait to the heart. Barry

For my style of Scoutmastering, this analogy doesn't fit because the SPL's responsibility is only to serve and support the PLs, NOT run the patrol. Rather, the challenge for me in this situation is finding enough responsibility for the SPL to justify an experience where he can grow. That being said, I like to set scouts off in a direction where they require as little adult intervention as possible. For me, the best method of doing that is let their handbooks guide them. Just about all of the youth scouting handbooks instruct with the SPL as part of the program. In fact, the SPL Handbook, in my mind, is a better PLs guide than the PL Handbook. So, I generally encourage new adults of new troops to start with an SPL as guided by the handbooks and let the scouts figure out how to make it work, or if it can work. I know using an SPL for a one patrol troop is not a popular approach by most wise leaders on the forum, but I put it out there as another approach to this situation. Barry

What I was trying to say is the burned out Bear leaders finds no encouragement to continue into the Webelos program because, ""If one spends their whole life eradicating bugs, animals, weather, nature in general and such out of the house, why would anyone want to go outside and try and coexist with them? Outside is a foreign concept to many in today's society. If all the amenities of our society were to somehow come to a halt, most would die off rather quickly. If it's too cold in the house, most people simply turn up the thermostat and never think of the other option of putting on a sweater. When one is outside, the sweater is the only option. For some, the lack of a thermostat is the end of civilization as they know it."" Barry

You just described the average Bear leader. Burnout is the number one reason adults drop out of scouting, but looking a head at the Webelos program outline didn't help encourage the tired Bear leader to stay with the den. I know it sounds like doom and gloom, but I have been preaching the burnout problem for 20 years. National has responded by dumping more responsibility on Cub leaders.

Yes, this. A new SM (no youth experience) called me after their new troop had about 6 camp outs under their belt. He said his scouts were bored with advancement on the camp outs, what else could they do. I mention increase the free time so they could explore on their own. He said, "Oh no, we wouldn't want them wandering around getting in trouble, would we?". Agreed, and this is an argument a few women have with me. But, you would be surprised how few men and women camped in their youth. Young adults today (future parents) are raised in a culture of fear. They will not trust the pure form of patrol method. At best the program will viewed as an after school program for getting youth out into the woods. That's a nice objective, but that isn't scouting. Barry

You mean like scrolling "VOLUNTEERS NEEDED" toward the end of this commercal. I'm not saying use this specific commercial, I was only asking if a commercial could be effective. I am quite creative. I could think something up. Barry

Can a commercial be effective? You tell me. I've shown this before: Barry

Good question. I monitored membership in our district, and somewhat in the council to observed trends. But computer outputs don't provide details of youth experience. So, I interviewed a lot of adults during trainings and multiple unit activities. Traditionally adult leadership with youth experience at the cub level is low because of the high number of mom den leaders. But once the BSA allowed women leaders at the higher age programs, the percentage of experienced leaders logically dropped significantly. And the percentage kept dropping for several years as more mothers stayed in the program. I can't say when it leveled off, but the number was bouncing between 25 to 35 percent of youth experienced adults about 10 years ago. That is of course not scientific. The BSA's style of tracking membership makes scientific next to impossible. Anyway, what I saw over the years as the female leaders start getting more active in the troop program was boy run taking a significant hit. Not because the leaders were female, but because they had no youth experience to start from. Without past experiences to base a starting place, adults naturally revert to training and manuals for guidance. What training and manuals miss of the Boy Scout experience is the social interaction within the patrols and troops. Fellowship is a very appropriate word. As an example, some of my fond memories of my troop experience are the stories told around the patrol campfires. I learned so much about cars, planes, movies and girls from my patrol buddies. Those moments around the fire are part of the reason I'm a pilot and aero engineer. I found patrol fires to be a rare sight in troops where the dominant leaders didn't have a youth experience. I am saddened by the number of posters here who say their scouts don't do troop campfires because the scouts find them boring. I found relationships among scouts in troops today to be more formal. The brotherly relation experience is replaced by a more team role type of relationship. Not as personal or close because their roles are more of adult expectation. I expect the number of adults without a youth experience to go up as a result of bringing in girls in the program because more mothers will want to get involved. It's the natural trend I've been watching. Now maybe mothers are going to save the program from the problem of low volunteer numbers. But that doesn't help the situation I am describing. Barry

Ok, we agree to disagree. But I stated an observation of the last 25 years, not a theory or whim. My theory is that the program in 20 years will not resemble the program of 1992 because it was lost thru generations of adult leaders without a scouting experience. Less than 25 percent of new leaders joining the BSA today had a scouting experience. Is my theory really so hard to believe? Barry

Just an observation over the last 25 years. The more volunteers without a scouting experience, the more program quality suffers. I know that we don't really have control over it, but I've been harping for several years that program quality is a function of experienced volunteers. Which is a HUGE concern for me with the induction of girls. Barry

And don't forget the girls.

Peer pressure is a powerful motivator. Probably the most misused technique in the BSA for motivating scouts to change their behavior. You will be confronted with the force hundreds of times in your lifetime. You either develop the self confidence to ignore peer pressure, or you let it control you. I'm told girls like a good uniform. Barry

Absolutely! I grow tired of the rigid idealism that seems to hold these forum discussions hostage from outside-the-box ideas and suggestions. Troops in the real world have the freedom to use life experiences and creativity for dealing with the unusual and unexpected situations that challenge their program. It's one thing to use general principle as a compass for direction. It's something different to be held to the inflexible rails of idealistic theory. The direction I give to new scout leaders of new troops is very different from the direction given for mature experienced programs, and between. Barry

I agree. When we get tired of hiking up hill, we stop and rest. When we get tired of paddling in the wind, we keep paddling. Otherwise the wind would blow us back to where we started. Barry

Little hints and nudges are very powerful. But let's assume for a moment the scouts did come up with the idea on their own. Should a SM who doesn't agree with shuffling get involved with the scouts' decision? Why or why not? Barry

Really! The trend of the discussion appears just the opposite. I think the OP got very good responses. Barry

Yes, this is true. However, There are several boy scout camps that lead back packing groups for a week and age is not a requirement. Same goes for canoeing, we do a trip to Canada every other year and just rent our own equipment. We get better gear for less cost. You can hire a guide if you need one. And many of our scouts spent a month getting their scuba license so they could spend a week in Mexico diving every day. So don't let the lottery slow you down if you really want back country adventure. Barry

I was thinking about this subject the other day. We often read Wood Badgers say "I used to be a Bob White (or whatever critter), a good ol Bob White to". Wood Badgers always feel a special connection with their Wood Badge patrol. So why wouldn't scouts feel the same? Well. they do. As a youth, I was a Flaming Arrow. Nothing else, just a Flaming Arrow. It was a great patrol and I'm quite proud of being a part it. I have never understood reshuffling patrols. It defeats the purpose of what we are trying to accomplish with the patrol method. I guess you have experienced it, so you are sensitive to it. But it is a foreign concept to me. Barry

If a volunteer doesn't agree with the BSA program (Vision, Mission, Aims, Methods, Values and so on), there are other organizations that may welcome that volunteer's time. A committee just may have a concern when the SM is apprehensive about discussing the program. Why would a SM be apprehensive? And where else can a concerned parent calmly have a discussion with the SM than in the committee meeting? An internet forum? The committee is one of the best opportunities for a SM to educate his program to the parents of the scouts. If the SM can't explain the reasoning for why and how the program works to the parents of the troop, then there might be reason for concern. The committee has the power to insure the program is safe and operating under the guidelines of the BSA. Barry

When we switched to weekly PLC meetings, we allotted one hour before the Troop meeting started. But those meetings shortened to 20 minutes within few months because they become more efficient at each meeting. And they got a lot more done. Our SPL gets so good at running meetings that I would match many of them with my company managers. And it's not just an advantage for PLC meetings. Scouts learn by watching other scouts in action, the PLs learn how to run better patrol meetings from their experiences in the PLC meetings. The scouts in the patrols learn good meeting habits simply by watching the PLs. Like many here, we don't allow any adults in the PLC meetings without permission from the SPL. But I found that even the SM rarely needs to attend. Typically I only attended if the PLC needed to ask a question. The SPL calls me the night before to brief me on his agenda, so my attendance was rarely required. Barry

The committee is responsible for the SM guiding the program toward the vision and goals. They hire and fire SMs to fit their program. I have no problem with them asking questions or suggesting ideas. The OP never suggested committee members do the mentoring, in fact he said that was the role of the SM and ASMs. It is the responsibility of the SM to explain (justify) how the program they are working is reaching the goals. Personally I believe this keeps the SM accountable for how the program is being run. I had to explain myself many times as well as explain why the committee’s suggestions may or may not work. Same age patrols and NSPs are a couple examples. As for who mentors who, it really depends on how much the program is using the patrol method and the maturity of the youth leaders. 11 and 12 year old PLs need a lot more mentoring than 15 year olds. Who does that mentoring depends on the maturity of the older Scouts. Is a list ok? Maybe at the start, but eventually performance is measured by the qwazse method. We have to remember the objective of the mentor is to get the scout to where he doesn’t need a mentor. The more a scout grows, the less he should need the mentor. So scheduled meetings become a dreaded waste of time and annoyance. I believe the best mentoring is done passively. The mentor waits for the scout to seek guidance. Otherwise the scout may not be ready to learn and grow from the mentors wisdom. Mentoring is important to our program, but the goal is for most of the mentoring to be done by Scouts. I also believe that a scout can learn just about all he needs to learn in the program by simply observing the actions of the other Scouts. When a trend of behaviors are not being learned by observing, and thus require specific training, that is a red flag that something is wrong in the program and needs attention. So, to answer the OP, I would suggest the mentors should approach their role as mentoring future mentors. Not leaders. Barry

Our PLC met once a week for 30 minutes before each meeting. As they got used to it, the meetings typically ran 20 minutes. They got a lot more done than the long boring two hour monthly meeting. Barry

You have a very limited view of natural boy groups. How many times does a boy change groups a year? We know they change the gang of sport teams and school classes every year. Nobody seems upset about new classes and new teams. But join the boys scouts and all of sudden the gang is critical. If a team player only needs a few practices to become part of the team, why wouldn't a scout only need a few patrol meetings? Well the answer is they do. What is a natural boy group? It's simply a group of boys who want to belong in that group. Why adults think that can't happen in mixed age groups is mystery. Our families know before they join how our program works. The only time I can remember a family not happy is the one Webelos who was bullied by the rest of his den. His dad told me that his son would join our troop if none of his den mates were in his patrol. Not all gang members like the gang. I learned later is was three boys who were the bullies and they didn't last a year in our troop. Anyway, I like to get to the root of issues. We parents don't really care about who our son friends are so long as he is happy. At least in the context of this discussion. Remember they make new friends just about every year at the start of a new school year. No big deal, right. I found over the years that the average boy who joined our troop only wanted one friend, sometimes two, to be happy in the gang... patrol. And, they generally felt comfortable after three meetings. All our new scouts were told they could start their own patrol if they wanted, but it never happened. After watching a functioning patrol for a few weeks, they realize starting a new patrol is a lot more work than joining a functioning one. By the way, Webelos didn't join troops as dens like they do today. Boys joined as their age and requirements qualified them to join. Troops didn't have NSPs back then because they didn't get large enough groups. So boys were mixed into the patrols through the year. The NSP was created to work the problem of loosing so many first year scouts. But after 20 years with the NSP program, the percentage of first years losses are the same as before. Hmm, so maybe the gang thing wasn't the big problem. What is the problem. Well that is what MattR was addressing in his post of scouts not in the habit of making decisions. Barry

Sure, but that is not what you said. You implied that the adults had no say or responsibility toward vision and mission. Reality is the adults have ALL the responsibility of the vision and mission. So long as the SM stays within the BSA rules and guidelines of the program, the SM can empower as much of that responsibility on the scouts as they want. But the BSA has already done most of that for the SM with Aims and Methods. Sadly, you are so hung up on force feeding your definition of patrol method on us that you can't see the forest for the trees. Boy growth in the scouting program requires a relationship of scouts and adults working together toward specific experiences. Concepts set the direction toward the vision and mission without the rigid lines of personal interpretation. Once personal lines are drawn as right or wrong, the program becomes very small and limits creativity. Folks work better with concepts because they can use their own life experiences and knowledge to guide the program toward the same objective. Barry

Scouts have NO authority to set their program vision and goals. That authority is the BSA. The BSA stipulates exactly what the vision and goals are for all its members. Otherwise a SM would just make up goals for his own glorification. Just as important, the scouting program does not belong to the boys. The scouting program "is" the adults program specifically targeted to work toward the BSA Vision and Mission. If one does not agree with the BSA Vision and Mission and the guidelines toward achieving those objectives, one does not have to join (and should not join) the BSA. As long as the SM agrees with the BSA Vision and Mission, and stays within the BSA stipulated rules and guidelines, they can work toward the BSA Vision and Mission the best they know how. Barry