Eagledad

Yep, as a JLT and NYLT (actually JLTC) course designer and Council JLT chairman, I can say without reservation that youth leadership training doesn’t do a lot of good if the adults don’t know how use the skills and information the scouts take from the courses. In my ideal world, adults are sent to NYLT, not the scouts. Because scout growth is directly dependent on the actions of role models, scouts don’t really require any formalized training if the adults are doing their part correctly. I used constant acts of skills being applied improperly (or not at all) as a Red Flag that the troop program was doing something wrong and needed a change. As for QC, I taught in my adult leadership courses to use Aims and Methods for program guidance and QC. Adults are responsible for Aims, scouts are responsible for applying Methods. But, QC is a learned action. Quality has to start somewhere. For scouts to do QC, they have to learn QC and it’s value. Barry

Or give the Scouts more control. Barry

The Col. is right, 11 & 12 year old boys are ready for independent challenges parents aren’t ready to consider, which is why staying home is a good idea until they are acclimated to the troop program and their sons real abilities. I see it every year at summer camp. Once the troop arrives to camp, the scouts are purposely left to their own. All the adults are asked to let the scouts (and sons) be on their own and to stand back and just watch. We even put the adults in a different campsite. This forces (and allows) each scout to figure out their classes, route to classes and acceptable behavior for their activities. Adults don’t lead or follow them to classes, it’s up to the scouts to find them. Or not, which does sometimes happen. Once in a while a parent gets upset and think the end of the world occurred because their son got behind in “advancement”. But, their sons usually have great stories and learned something valuable (character) from the adventure. Camps can be large and scary, so scouts are required to follow the buddy system and seek help from their patrol leader. Summer camps are the safest place I know of for letting boys spend a week without adult guidance. And without realizing it, they mature a lot. Parents have told me many times their son that came home was not the one who left. And that is a very good thing. That’s what I mean by “trust me and watch.” barry

I have always felt that parent relations is the most challenging skill for SMs. The better SMs are usually great salesmen who deflected parent over involvement with a “trust me and watch” sales pitch. If push comes to shove (scouts choosing to skip activities), the SM will have to draw a line in the sand. If the SM isn’t a good salesman, a trusted well experienced assistant can also be a good interpreter between the SM and parents. Barry

Yes, this is the expected result when a major organizational change is forced on its membership without a reasonable explanation or an honest two way discussion. My apologies to Wisconsinmomma for being a bit pointed. I would enjoy learning opinions from a new leader if we could get around the assumed biases and have a pragmatic discussion. Barry

I’m not shutting down a point of view, I’m pointing out your condescending tone towards the opinions of scouters who have many many more years experience than you. You choose how you want contribute to a meaningful discussion, but If you can’t respect our concerns from where we stand, how are we to respect your hopes for the girls. And if you don’t agree with my opinion of your posts, consider that you haven’t said much (if anything) of concern for what your sons will get out of the program. Who here has their back? Barry

So, we are saying folks of BPs day didn’t understand (or respect) the value of single gender role models? Could maybe the possibly be that are generation doesn’t get it? After seeing what national politics did to the Canadian Scouts, I think he would have concern of who controls the organization vision. Barry

WisconsinMomma, you amare saying all the right things in defense of women in scouts. But your words don’t hold in any weight because there isn’t a defense for boys needing male role models as bad as girls need female role models. We know that girls are coming and more moms will follow as leaders . So that doesn’t add to the discussion either. As some of us more experienced scouters see it, adding girls to the troop program takes away from the boys and offers more to the girls. To us, we are only questioning if adding girls is worth sacrificing the best possible growth for the boys? That’s our struggle. If you want to contribute something meaningful to that discussion, great. But, as you form your thoughts, have respect for the many on this list with dozens of years building character in young men. We have a lot of experience observing the advantages of the patrol method program and know what is gained and lost by adding girls. Instead of defending the membership changes with patronizing doublespeak pointed at good-oh-boy old timers too stubborn to move with the times, respect the words and visions from experts in the field who have the experience you don’t have. Is moving the program toward mediocrity worth the loss of possibilities for our sons? Seems the world says yes. And maybe so. But don’t discount the losses and don’t disrespect those who morn the losses. Barry

you would think, but the Supreme Court is roughly 50/50 politically. Is that conscience, moral conscience, emotion, or what. They only supposed to interpret the law. Judge Judy made millions by applying moral reasoning to her judgements. Because our society is drifting from religion, I think more people have less self moral guidance. So, when someone with sound moral understanding comes along, like Judge Judy, they attach to them to feel some sense of security for direction. Barry

I’ve worked with and trained several female SMs. Only one understood how to use Patrol Method the way it was intended and that was because her ASM husband is an Eagle Scout. All fine scouters, but their programs (except the one) verged on Webelos III. And yes, male SMs with the same youth experience as the female SMs performed the same. I’m on record here stating how adding females dramatically changed the troop program. The Woodbadge program in 2000 was a direct result. Human nature drives youth to naturally learn from dominating role models (SM) of the same gender until puberty. I can’t imagine that mixed gender roles has near the impact on growth. Barry

And what does stosh want? The BSA SCouting community struggles enough with general consensus of the BSA program without experienced scouters yelling a the top of their lungs that troops following BSA guidelines like the Mission, Vision, Aims and Methods are adult run programs. The program is in a tough place, National appears more focused on numbers than Ideals, training passes out highlights but misses important details, and experienced scouters preach go-it-your-own. There doesn't appear to be much humility in that mix. But imagine a small group of scouters, like those on a forum, would step back and open the minds to learning and considering different ideas, maybe they could use those ideas in their programs to learn more and grow more. Then they take those experiences and lessons learned to influence those who aren’t growing because they are stuck in the mud or just complacent. There are many reasons why units fall short with their program. But what options do they have if we tell them they are doing it wrong and then walk away. They need sensible easy down to earth person to person neighborly advice from an experienced friend to help them see a new possibility. Imagine a movement like that changing the BSA back to the organization that compliments its noble reputation one scouter at a time. I really believe that as a result of the new membership changes, the BSA needs the experienced scouters more than ever. Barry

Idealism is the North Star that keeps us going in the right direction. But character is learned from the struggles of just trying to keep from going in the opposite direction. I’m tired of folks assuming adults inherently know how to be good leaders. Adults have to learn twice as much twice as fast just to keep up. The challenge isn’t running the program without little cheats to go forward, the challenge is learning how to do it better than the cheats. Eagle94 mentioned in another post that patrol method needs about three years to get rolling under its own momentum. That is true only if the adults continue to learn, grow, and change. Experience is the hardest teacher, it gives the test first, then the lesson. Barry

Sadly I don’t understand the waterboy reference. Barry

By-laws are generally a reaction for dealing with difficult situations because the adults lacked experience and maturity to handle them more rationally on individual bases. Kind of like a Zero tolerance rule in school. Sometimes by-laws help a struggling program move forward until it gets under its own feet. Scouts in boy run programs also create by-laws for the same reason. They just don’t call the by-laws. But usually by-laws fade away as the program matures with experience. What to do with by-laws depends on if the adults feel ready to move on. Hard in this instance to say because dictating how the new Scouts will use the patrol method is unusual. The SM Handbook, PL Handbook and SPL Handbook already provide guidelines for new Scouts. And SMs usually dictate the policy after enough experience. Why the need for a by-law? Maybe the troop is using the by-laws as more of a new parents guide. Maybe you should approach the change in that manner. Barry

Just so we understand your opinion better, what part of the bylaw is of concern? Barry

Before the computer records, not having all the advancement requirements on council record was standard procedure. Researching the council records was normal because the errors occurred so often. I can't even imagine how many of my adult award and training records are missing. I don't really care, so I've never bothered to look. But advancement verification for Eagle was required by our district before the EBOR, so I guess different councils handle verification differently. Barry

Our district was advising us to carry an umbrella policy 25 years ago. I also raised the max liability on my car insurance. Barry

I'm not sure what you think we are agreeing to disagree on. The membership change hasn't happened yet. This is a forum: over thinking is what we do. And when you gain as much experience in the program as many here have, you might have a different perspective of what discussion can bring educationally to the group. Everyone is up for the challenge, but many of the challenges are unknowns. It's ok to talk about unknowns. As an engineer, I get paid everyday to consider the unknowns....and discuss them. Barry

Please don't do that. Don't turn a discussion around by accusing someone of being other than what was intended so you can control the discussion. That was not what was being talked about. And if you don't think there won't be a learning curve on a sudden new change of membership by adding a completely new gender of youth, then you are being naïve. I gave real life of examples of adults making mistakes simply because they just weren't used to the new side of the program. You can be open enough to discuss you opinion without demonizing the opinion. I will add one more. A professional once told me some years ago that there are, what he called, Boy Scout babies. These are babies that were conceived on a BSA campout. He would not give details. But things can and do happen. Barry

I have not done it for NYLT personally, but I have run NYLT course. The syllabus does a good job describing the responsibilities, but I would not compare it to a typical Troop Quartermaster position. NYLT is a training course where the participants camp. Not a camp where the participants train. The QM has to prepare the camp before the course starts, coordinate with all the course leaders to plan out their required materials on the course day and time, and acquire and provide all the equipment and materials required for the whole course. I believe the QM is the most time intensive responsibility of all the staff positions. To be chosen is a complement in of itself because it’s general handed out to scouters who have proven a capability to be responsible. I usually hung around the QMs during the courses when I had a break because they seem to have the most fun, and great snacks. Barry

Interestingly most of the adult problems I've seen as far as crossing the line are women leaders. I'll never forget the very attractive young Webelos leader mom who enjoyed the attention from the camp youth staff a little too much. Other instances were female leaders (moms) walking into the showers to check on their scouts who seem to be staying in the showers longer than they should. I really believe the inappropriateness of their action never occurred to them because they were just being mom. But it occurred often enough that the camp director had to call a meeting of all the unit leaders to once more REVIEW the rules and guidelines. Now that more girls are entering the scene, there will likely be a few....misunderstandings. Barry

The list handled the situation quite well without Johnny come lately moderators bringing their rulers to rap knuckles. The crowd had dispersed 12 hours before NJ jumped in. Some of us are grown ups and can handle the occasional tantrum. We save red flags for when there is really a need for caped crusaders. Come on mods, do no harm. Barry

Because? Barry

LOL, holding up to your reputation of the kind of person you have consistently been on this list. You make it quite clear what you really think of us. Hmm, I wonder, is that integrity. Barry

Most of the troops I advised with only one patrol were new and the scouts were all the same age. And since they were all the same experience level, the "Instructor" POR wasn't really appropriate. So, the older scout role model didn't really apply. Letting the Handbooks guide the scouts was the most intuitive method for guiding the scouts in a new troop with same experienced (or rather inexperienced) scouts with inexperienced adult leaders. New programs are a challenge because the adults struggle with getting up to speed in the program just as much as the scouts, if not more. So, I believe this approach works well for getting the patrol method rolling because the adults are using the same program material (youth handbooks) as the scouts. They are being forced to stand back and let the scouts work from the hand book guidelines. Of course the scouts will need additional guidance, but the guidance is coming more from a team member who is working from the same material instead of a know-it-all adult who just make it up. Scouts quickly learn to trust the adult as an equal student working toward the good of the whole program while the adult practices the art of humility by interacting with scouts on equal footing. It's not an easy process, but it works with some practice. Barry