Eagledad

As I have asked many times, if mixed age patrols don't work, how did traditional scouting (Bill Hillcourt) survive successfully for so many years? Since you never answer, I assume the answer is you just don't know how to do it. That is OK stosh, you are successful in your own style. So, instead of these ,us vs. them, posts, just give examples of how your work with your scouts without demonizing units who are different from yours. Or, you could ask for advice from those here who have successful experiences with mixed age patrols. Our troop is a backpacking troop, I've not heard a complaint from either the younger scouts or older scouts. Barry

I'm not debating the subject because I'm not sure there is a wrong motivation. I'm only explaining my reasoning for not coaching. I honestly believe being active in a good program is all a scout needs to be ready for the EBOR. He may need to brush up on some skills, but he knows those skills better than me. I don't think checking paperwork comes under the heading of coaching. However, I am guilty of giving a scout a few suggestions to calm his nerves. I have also given the scout a few suggestions mostly to calm the nerves of the parents who are observing our SM Conference. However, I have found many times that scout leaders who feel the need to coach their eagle candidates are either over estimating the judgment of the board or protecting their ego. I also feel that having to coach a scout for a successful EBOR implies some failure of the program. I actively try to seek out the problem areas long before the scout is working on his Eagle. While I know some folks have cause for concern about hostile EBORs, in general the motivation of most boards is only to express honor by giving the scout opportunities to brag about himself through their questions. With respect, mock EBORs seem over the top. Just suggesting it would appear to imply it is something to be anxious about. Barry

The rule is appropriate for a specific application. The problem is zero tolerance doesn't allow judgment of application. We had a local situation where the student was punished for a butter knife that fell out of his lunch sack. Mom had put it there to spread the condiments on his sandwich. I honestly do not understand why schools feel the need for "zero tolerance" anything. Barry

I'm not quite sure what you are asking for, but maybe this scout just had a bad day. I found that scouts who were only in the troop because their parents pushed them there tended to not have the enthusiasm you say this scout has. I'm sure your experience is the same. Based on your post, I would suggest the TG and SPL give this scout some room to work and see if they can find what does interest him. Every boy likes something. I had one very nerdy scout who was the son of an Air Force general and Eagle Scout. There was no way he wasn't going to have a boy scout experience. But, after his son ran away from camp one night, I sat with the General and asked him to let us work this out so that we don't have to handcuff him to his tent each night. Turns out his son is a computer genius. This was during a time when Troop Web sites were just starting to become a popular. So we asked him to develop our Web site. It turned him around. I don't know why, but that one notoriety changed him enough to where he could bare camping and all the baggage that comes with camping outdoors. I handed him his Eagle 3 years later. I ran into him three years later while he was working at an Ace Hardware store and I couldn't get him to shut up about scouting. Shesh!. So, one thing your scouts could do is find that one thing that makes the boy like himself when he is wearing his boy scout uniform. Barry

When my son was a Troop Guide, he would show his NSP how to cook a turkey on their first camp out so they would know that he likes to eat well on all camp outs. Barry

We all challenge growth in our own way. Our patrols cook all meals (lunch is optional) because we want the scouts to experience the group dynamics as well as the required skills for cooking and clean up. More importantly, I knew from my experience as a youth that nothing challenges and bonds a patrol more than preparing and cleaning up a meal. My experience as an adult taught me that very few activities stress the PL more than the group dynamics of preparing meals and clean up. If it takes too long, and it usually does at first, the scouts learn how to become more efficient. Same goes with camp set-up and break-down. As for the open ended Eagle questions, experiences of camping prepares scouts better for any generalized question from the board. I learned from this forum that a lot of units coach their scouts for preparation of the EBOR. It never occurred to me that a scout needed to be coached. His experience of scouting along with the skills learned by the requirements are enough in my mind. Barry

Forest for the trees. Adults who don’t have a childhood Scouting experience are changing the program. The touching taboo of today’s generation can’t understand how it calms confusion, soothes anger, and encourages confidence. It’s now viewed as inappropriate acts with indecent intentions. Still, I know of nothing better to calm the out of control ADD Scout than a gentle touch on the shoulder. I cant help but feel that future leaders will struggle to know the satisfaction of helping a boy grow to be a better person. Barry

Gatekeeping is the appropriate ,and noble, description in my mind of the EBOR responsibilities. For the award to have merit, presented accomplishments require accountability. To many adults show fear of responsibility in front of the scouts, which is ironic because the world expects accountability and the BSA markets itself as a program for building men of character. That being said, all scout leaders have responsibility of understanding the program they present and judging the scouts actions "fairly" within the published BSA program expectations. Gatekeeping carries a high burden of responsibility. Barry

This is a tough question because, as I know you know, learning patrol method takes time and practice. A SM has leverage because, well the SM is the boss. But anyone else has an uphill grind to not only sell it as "one" possible way of developing character, but also be able to show proof from results. And, as you also know, growth takes time and is generally subtle. First off, use simple words and stick to them like "patrol method" or "boy run". Personally I like boy run because Patrol Method is one of Eight Methods of scouting. You and I know the difference by how we use the term in a sentence. But it can be confusing to newer leaders. Boy Run is used by the BSA as scout independence, so it makes sense. Also, instead of talking about growth, Aims, goals or something else, use "character". Character is the term most people reference as growth in scouting. So, it require less explanation. "Boy Run" (independence) is the best way of developing "character" (turning boys into men) for this age of boys. Then be specific and simple with the words to define how boy run works toward develop character. Boys of this age learn more by thinking through a difficult decision than by following habits or adult directions. The best way to encourage boys this age to "actively think" through a struggle is to give responsibilities where they have to make decisions. Even small decisions like, "should I tuck in my shirt" is an active decision making process of right or wrong. The more we get the boys to make decisions, they more they have to balance and measure right and wrong. That is how character is developed. Each decision the adult makes for the scout deprives him of the practice for character growth. You can make you own examples that apply to your situations. But I found I needed to practice these explanations in my mind to shorten them so I did't loose my audience. What you are doing is begging for their trust to let you give scouts permission to screw up. BUT what parents struggle with is that making mistakes is a good thing in the troop. To most parents, wrong decisions implies bad boys. We see it on this forum everyday. Posters asking for advice to deal with scouts bad decisions. They don't see bad decisions as opportunites of character growth, they see it as boys behaving badly. You have to sell them that wrong decisions don't mean bad decisions or that boys are bad. Wrong decisions just show the scout where he needs to learn the skills to make right decisions. The more wrong decisions they make now, the more skills they learn for making right choices as an adult. And don't ask for everything all at once. Pick a few examples where the adults are too close to the scouts and ask them to give the boys room. And allow time for them to learn from what ever choices they make. That's at the top of my head anyway. It took me years to do what you are asking for one meeting. Barry

Eagle94 has been dealing with this problem, one way or another, for a couple years. My response is more in the light of the history of the his situation, not just this one situation. Your are correct that I should have responded more pointedly to this thread. Barry

I see Eagle94's situation as the result of a SM who doesn't understand patrol method and/or doesn't know how to teach patrol method to the adults. The SM of our troop requires all new parents to spend one to three meetings with the SM who shows them how the troop program works, and the adult roles in the program. They will get to observe a PLC meeting (the only time adults are allowed), patrol meetings, a SM Conference (with scout's permission), a BOR (with Scouts permission), and a tour of the troop storage by the GM. Also, any adults who plans to camp with the troop are REQUIRED to spend a campout with the SM to again observe the scouts program and how the adults' roles in that program (the SM does a lot of sitting around the campfire talking about his favorite subject, patrol method. A lot). I'm one of the few adults on this forum who doesn't assign busy work to parents just to keep them out of the way. I teach them the value of staying out of the scouts way and then let them make choices. They usually get it on the first campout. Barry

True, but there is a difference between a friendly practical joke and hazing. Sadly hazing has become a pop culture trigger word to imply hostile intent when in reality it was just the opposite. The intent of the person who acted is just as important as the response of the person who was on the other end. It is much easier to teach the values of the Oath and Law when intent of the actions are measure, as apposed to the method of the actions. Another example of using politically correct trigger words inappropriately is the BSA statement that holding a scout up-side-down during an awards ceremony was a form of hazing. National put that in the Guide to Safe Scouting Guide for pete sake for liability purposes. Rest assured it was the Cubs who were the most upset by the restriction. Have we as a culture come to a point where hostile threats are the only way to control behavior? That is not scouting, but I fear that is becoming the way of the BSA when that is the only way adult leaders react to scout behavior. Barry

Yes, parents are always, "concerned." My response is something in the order of: Adults don't interfer with the scouts elections. If the position is truly respected as a leadership position, then scouts generally want the right person, not the popular person. As scout has to earn respect. They can earn it simply by volunteering for outside responsibilities like leading the COHs, organize and lead service projects and offer to help out in program setup. That generally separates the wonna-be's from the gunna-be's. I found that troops where the elections are just popularity context are generally programs where the adults have low expectations of the scouts' performance. Barry

As a pilot and Aero Engineer, you would have thought I'd join Aviation Explorers. But sometimes hormones...........

One other advantage of using your own outfitter is lighter Kevlar canoes. Great pictures JoeBob, brings back a lot of memories. One of our adults also took his Border Collie. One big difference I tell "adults" deciding between canoeing in Canada and hiking Philmont is that you can take a bath every day in Canada. Ahhhhhhh.

The three things I remember our patrol talking about in the 1970s at the patrol campfire was cars, movies and girls. It was educational for the younger scouts. I can say at least 50% of the reason I joined the Scuba Explorers was because of the girls who wore bikinis during many of our activities. As for boys talking about girls at camp, I remember once a young very attractive Webelos leader causing quite a stir with the camp staff at our council Webelos summer camp. Especially at the swim area. Scouting does not stop human nature. Barry

In the 1970s, my Patrol leader took me to patrol meetings IN HIS CAR. The average age of our patrol leaders was between 15 and 17 years old. Unheard of today. Barry

The fixed blade restriction is a 1980s leftover from camps restricting the large blade survival knives made popular by the Rambo movies. Cheap copies were easy to get at the time and a lot of boys had them. Some of them were large enough to compete as a machete. They weren't restricted because they were more dangerous, the restrictions were based on the military image they portrayed, which the BSA tries hard to stay away from. Sadly, all fixed blade knives were the casualty of the restriction. Ignorance (I know mods hate that word) kept the myth alive, but surprisingly, common sense seems to have prevailed and acceptance of the fixed blade is coming back. Barry

We had this situation a couple times in both cubs and troops. We contacted our district Commissioner and DE to show them the problem and why were asking parents to stay away from the scouts. But you don't have to do that. If the COR has a problem with the parent, they have every right to ask them to leave without Council permission. In our case, the adults were leaders, so we could asked to have their membership taken away. But instead we simply restricted them from being near the boys and unit activities. That way you aren't asking their sons to leave, just the parent. In one case, mom and son left to join another troop. And another, and even one more before Council took her membership away. As for what Council will do, they like to stay out of unit business when they can because they have plenty of other situations to deal with. They in general will support what you ever propose unless it is against BSA policies. Barry

Our troop actually gave this a try. Our scouts met at a church about five miles from a local lake with camping grounds. They set out that afternoon and set out to camp. An adult met them there because the camp required adults with the scouts. However, the scouts were given freedom to do what they wanted and the adult was instructed to sit back. All went well until one of the scouts (a problem in the past) decided to get up in the middle of the night and hike home. I got a panicky call from the adult (only one with a cell phone back then) that a scout was missing. No idea where or how. As soon as I hung up, the scouts dad called and said his son just got home. That little incident didn't stop us from letting other patrols go on their own campouts, but that was the only one where the scouts chose to hike out of town on their own. Our troop requires (back when I was SM) for each patrol to organize two patrol campouts each year. Although the scouts enjoy those camp outs, they rather go with the troop for a couple of reasons. 1. Our troop plans pretty good camp programs that the patrols want to do. 2. Planning a camp out in this day and age is a lot of work because of logistics, and boys of this age in general like the path of least resistance. Each patrol is responsible for arranging transportation to the camp at a time they choose to go. So they have full independence to do whatever they want. But, if the troop is going on a rappelling camp out, that is what they want to do. And while they can leave when ever they want, it's easier getting the gear out of storage with the other patrols and following the group to camp. I can't see where that is really a bad thing. We push the patrols to be independent, but we also allow them to make choices. How much of one should we push over the other? By the way, I asked my dad why they didn't drive to camps, he reminded me that fuel was expensive and hard to get back then. Otherwise they would have "gone the path of least resistance". Barry

My dad was a scout in the early 40s. I don't know how a typical troop functioned back then, but his troop would meet up on a Friday afternoon at one of the scout's house and then hike out of town with their gear. It was a small town in Mississippi, so they didn't have to hike far to be in the county. They would hike until they had had enough and then ask the owner of the property nearby for permission to set up camp. All this without the SM. The SM would ask them at the next meeting what they did and what they learned. He would provide a signature for what ever needed the SM's signature. I'm sure there was more to the SM's responsibility than that, but that is about as much as my dad remembers of the responsibility. I don't know how many patrols were in the troop, or if they just had one patrol, but he said the SPL was the troop leader on camp outs. To be fair, there weren't very many men around at the time because of the war and the few who were around worked long hours to make ends meet. So, his scouting experience might have been unusual even for the time. BUT, can anyone envision that type of troop today? Barry

The Scouting BP envisioned was a means to an end. His end (vision) was a world of better men, not better outdoorsmen. Can’t get there until you know where you are going. BP once wrote about the challenges of adults being to self focused on the Method and not enough on the Aim. I spent a lot of time in training trying to get adults to understand the differences between scout growth (Aims) and camping (Methods) just so they could build their program to the common goal using their own personal life skills. I think most of the experienced scouters on this forum believe Patrol Method is the best way in the troop program to work toward the Aims. But most adults struggle to see how the Methods work towards a Scout’s growth (or Aims). Does an individual patrol of Scouts have an advantage over a troop of individual patrols in using Patrol Method towards the Aims and Vision? I don’t think so. As long as the program is developed for, and measured against, the Aims, the program is working correctly just the way BP intended. Barry

Great list. Well done. It should be the check list for all troops and all their camp outs. Barry

Our troop learned Thorns and Roses from Philmont, but it really never caught on in the troop. Philmont started using it when scouts complained the adults were taking over the crews and there was nothing the scouts could do about it. Philmont added thorns and roses to help give scouts a way of expressing their frustration. Our PLC is encouraged to nip any concern with adults in the bud by talking to the SPL who in turn will talk to the SM if needed. I think most issues never get to the Thorns and Roses level. Barry

That’s how I worked. Yes, they eventually caught on. Barry