Eagledad

I am a minimalist, mostly because I don't like to bring attention to myself. I also don't like to wear my WB Beads or OA sash. I do like my SM Patch. However, just from the couple of knots on one of my shirts, I do agree that patches are conversations starters with scouts. I have no problem with adults who shirts and jackets weighted down with knots, patches and other regalia. It's part of the fun. I even met a one legged SM who had camp brands all over his wooden camping leg. Barry

This was our troop. And, I think it was because this was how the SM wanted it because some scoutmasters push the scouts to pick everyone eligible. Yes, that is what I mean the Scoutmaster's idealism of the program can sway the scouts expectations of other scouts. I agree, scouts don't connect with character. They find Aims and Methods a language from another planet. They do, however, connect with brotherhood and as you pointed out, an early name, good or bad sticks for a long time. Young scouts learn quickly which older scouts to approach for help. But, the problem I see today is a new scout can, and is expected to vote, with the same power as the scout with 3 years experience. Add a SM who wants all the scouts to get a sash and you get a lot of scouts who don't really want to be there. From the perspective of outside looking in, the Arrowmen in my troop as a youth were big time campers. They were experts. The Arrowmen in the Troop that I was a SM were good campers and backpackers, but their expertise in both the Troop and OA was leadership. Barry

If it’s just a matter of meeting the requirements, then why the vote. If getting voted is just a matter of luck, then where is the honor. In our district, 90% of scouts tapped out were no longer active in OA a year later except wearing their sash at COHs. I apologize for being cynical, but I remember the old days when Arrowmen were held in higher esteem than Eagles. Barry

And the election will never get past a popularity contest because voting is shots in the dark. It doesn't even make sense. There is nothing honorable about an honor society that wants everyone. But, there is still power in the reputations of the scouts. The Scouts in our troop held the top Chapter leadership position for 6 years. Chapter Leadership wasn't a popularity contest, it was getting folks who got things done. And, the reputation was the reason I was asked to takeover as OA Chapter Advisor. I declined, but I was humbled. Scoutmasters can set high ideals that scouts will carry on past the troop program. Barry

Arrowmen are supposed to be experts in camping and they should camp a lot to earn that reputation from their peers. To sort out the children (first year scouts) from the scouts, set a troop rule that only scouts with a minimum 0f 10 campouts and summer camp in the last 12 months can vote for OA candidates. Then, explain to the troop the noble qualities of an Arrowmen. Of course some scouts don't get selected. I will say that both in my troop as an adult leader and my troop as a youth, Eagle rarely was indicative of being selected to OA. Some Eagles are nerds who aren't great campers. Some Eagles camp a lot, but they aren't very approachable for young scouts looking guidance. Most Arrowmen don't rise up to be ASPL or SPL, but there is something about them that sets them apart from just the average scout. The qualities of an Arrowmen should stick out even before they are voted into OA. Barry

I agree with you about the selection process. In the 70s, I believe the age requirement was 14 to insure maturity and experience with camping skills. And, the scout would have a reputation of a servant because jerk was not going to get voted in by their peers. I don't know if that selection process could go back to those days, but the program sure could. Learning to lead a crew on a community service project requires a more mature person who believes in vision of cheerful service. Add to that practice of scouting skills and basically requiring Arrowmen to attend 90% of unit campouts, and you would end up with what I call a "master scout". I know by my own scouts that reputation is part of the draw for the activities they get involved in outside of the unit program. It's just a matter of changing the reputation of the OA program activities. Barry

I don't know. Is any Pre-Twentieth Century ancestry imitated accurately? Many African Americans travel to Africa to see the place and learn more of their ancestry only to find little to their knowledge is left to explain more of the history than they already know. Does anyone really disrespect the movie Braveheart when they learn William Wallace didn't really wear a kilt? My ancestors were Vikings and rarely are Vikings portrayed to the accuracy you are demanding. Does that inaccurately takeaway from the costumes and customs in Viking dramas. Most people don't portray inaccuracies purposely to be offensive. Any many have pure intentions of bringing respect to the culture. We live in a strange time when everyone is given permission to be offended by anything. Scouting, better than any other youth organization I know of, teaches respect to all others and they do it through the guidelines of the Scout Law and Oath. If they find they are unintentionally being offensive, they should in their humility change immediately. But, everyone should, at the very least, acknowledge their attempt to respect others. I'm not a fan on the focus of OA master scouts mainly earning their respect by their ability to act out the Indian pre-20th Century culture. I must admit to this perspective by adults. OA is not the Arts division of scouting. I personally would much rather Arrowmen be respected by the community for their Cheerful Service and Outdoors skills expertise. I don't mind them being experts of the Native American culture, but it's the cheerful Service and Expertise to survive in the woods of the Arrowmen I want every scout to take into their adulthood. Barry

Ah, Ok. At least We can agree to disagree. Have a great week. Barry

I agree and have been saying this for years. Outside impression is very important and that used to be Cheerful service and campmenship. Arrowmen in the 70's were the special forces of scouting. Only a few scouts 14 and older (two in our troop) could be voted each year by each member of the troop, so only the best of the best were called out. The Ordeals were challenging and strict. Not passing was not unusual. Quality was the control, not quantity. I don't even remember regalia, but it doesn't matter, OA has lost the image of Cheerful Service and Camping to Ceremony actors. I don't know where OA got lost, but my observation of the program now is the adults don't understand the program's moral vision and does ceremonies to provide a reason to exist. I was once asked to be the District OA adult sponsor and I declined because I was very busy. I might consider going back as I don't see many opportunities for youth today to learn humility through service and survival skills experts. I would start by training them to find themselves by their scouting expertise, not by uniform. That being said, how the scout wears the uniform should identify a master scout Arrowman. I haven't heard this. They may be struggling to find themselves, but they seems to find some place. I guess time will tell, but I haven't seen much hope of change for understanding the vision of service and camping. Hmm, maybe, but I struggle when I hear adults using scouts to justify adult opinions. I have never heard a scout complain about regalia of any type, in fact it was the more the merrier. Personally, I hate regalia in scouting (adults and scouts) because it sometimes sets the identity of behavior instead of noble expectations of the Oath and Law. But, regalia can have a place to of furthering expectation in a weak program. Still, I find it hard to believe a scout humbled by the reputation of serving would want to stand out with regalia. If Arrowmen are the gurus of the Scout Oath and Law, they will know where regalia fits in their program. I would much rather AO gets out of doing cross-over ceremonies, and public ceremonies in general and instead find honor and nobility by humble actions of service and scoutmanship. They should be called on as experts of camping skills and service projects that units are planning. OA is the first call a new troop should make for help getting their program off to a good start. Hmm. I have no trouble with service to council camps as they require a great deal of help. But, OA is off the rails because they are not seen anymore a service to all. OA should help direct local service for helping community services. Mowing lawns for elderly and picking up trash. I'm only coming up with this at the top of my head, but OA should be experts enough that they lead and teach units to help with a service project. Our troop performed many service projects and used the activates to introduce and teach leadership and followship skills. I can imagine one group of Arrowmen leading several units projects on one weekend. As a result of how our patrol method program ran, our SPLs tended to be more mature than the most of the SPLs at summer camp. As a result, they were typically voted camp SPL. It wasn't a position they particularly wanted because they were very busy being the SPL of our troop. But, my point is that they didn't get that respect from bragging, showing off or pontificating to the other SPLs. They got it by their mature behavior. When I was a scout, we usually only saw OA at the camporees because they were the judges of the scout skills competitions. They are the skills experts after all. But, they were the known experts of the troop and respected as such. That doesn't happen today because most of the scouts are arrowmen and none of them stick out as masters of scout skills or camping. If OA is to become the organization it used to be, it needs to start with adults who believe that character comes from serving others and helping fellow scouts accel in their units. Those kinds of scouts stick out and bring honor to both the OA organization and the units they represent. Barry

OK Barry

I'm taking this as intended humor. So, as someone who has spent almost their entire 64 year life in Oklahoma, I will go ask one if you want. You can't sing a cat here without hitting someone with some Native American blood. Was there a specific tribe from your area. My son-in-law is 1/32 Cherokee and went to a high school with the Indians as their mascot. That should do. However, we did a lot of Native American theme ceremonies in our pack and my experience is that Native Americans are less concerned about details of the ceremonies than they are of respect toward their culture. Oh, there are activist of course, but that isn't the nom. our pack had one dad who was Eskimo. I know, but he was hired by and oil company in Oklahoma. He was so excited about how our pack used the Native American theme that he volunteered to help in anyway he could. Songs, costumes, whatever. He felt so honored when I asked him to help me plan an awards ceremony. He chose to lead a dance that included all 200 attendees at the pack meeting. That was a long time ago, but my adult sons still talk about it. He told me one time that the Native American youth on average come from families of drugs and alcohol, so any celebration that shows respect and pride toward the Native American culture is welcome. Everyone of our Bobcats received a feather headband. Barry

I think the how tos will be a little different for each troop because the personalities of adults. Adults must agree on the vision so that everyone buys in to it. Or, at least, they are willing to accept it as the course direction. I found that most adults don't really care about a vision so long as the Scoutmaster seems to have a grasp of where the troop is going. In my case, I lead a Troop meeting twice a year after each SPL election that required all the scouts and their parents to attend. I spent the first 20 minutes explaining Aims, Methods, Patrol Method (we call it boy run), and our troop vision. While I have passion for those subjects and could discuss them all day, I found 20 minutes was about all that could hold their focus. We also discussed the structure of the troop from CO down to the new scout's parents. That is how I tried to keep everyone at least understanding why I drove the program the direction it was going. From the scouts perspective, they didn't really care about the 3 Aims (citizenship, character, and fitness), except that they planned and activity to practice each at campout. They, however, did understand the 8 Methods because each patrol leader had to set a goal for each method. Most were simple. But, the real point of all that is the scouts learned that the adults were not responsible for the 8 Methods other than the program had to use all eight methods, and the adults were responsible for the 3 Aims. The scouts knew my vision for them, in simple terms, was character development, we also had the vision of scout leadership and adventure as visions. But, what I kept saying, without calling it a vision, is the program was going toward a troop that if the adults didn't show up, the meeting and activities would go on as it was planned. The scouts had to take total ownership for that to happen and that was the real vision we were striving toward while I was SM. What I learned over the years is that the real goal for the adults is to develop a culture in the troop that the scouts use as their community. I also found that to be a real challenge for most troops and they never reach a culture where they felt comfortable letting the scouts run the whole program. The reason is that the adults have to be fluid with the program and change their adult roles as the scouts mature. I generally guided the SPL to act more SM like on campouts if they had the skills and maturity of an experienced older scout. I wanted them to keep growing. We had a discussion on this forum about troop maturity a few years ago and those of us who had experience that kind of maturity agreed that 5 years is about the length of time to reach it. As I siad, the real problem is being humble enough to change and give the scouts more responsibilities as they matured with their skills. A troop that does that eventually ends up with the scouts running the program and the adults watching or just sitting at the fire. So, "how tos": No adults allowed in PLC meetings unless they get permission from the SPL. That includes the SM. I was never refuse permission., Adults never stood in front, or even near, youth leaders unless they were asked to be there by the scouts. Adults never put up the Scout sign before scouts to get the groups attention. If the adult needed to calm or quiet the group like providing information at troop meeting, the adult simply asked the scout near them to get the groups attention. Easy once the adults get in the habit and it really reinforces Other things I did was I alway put a box of Tootsie Roll Pops in the middle of camp under the stipulation that scouts can have as many as they want provide they take only one at a time and they don't leave trash. If the SPL, or any scout, found trash, they box was taken away. I also carried a pocket full of Fireballs cinnamon candy and handed them out when I saw a scout do a good dead. I was often presently surprised of how most of the scouts accepted the gift humbly. They didn't think what they did was special or stood out. I also brought a cooler full of soft drinks on campouts for the PLC to drink each night during their meetings. The PLC worked hard and I wanted to show my appreciation. Our PLC usual meetings where before each troop meeting, so I often brought them pizza. Barry

Great idea.

Hi All. I heard a lecture that put all my experiences and wisdom from scouting in a nutshell. This isn't a thread on god, or God, and scouting. This is about the scoutmaster setting the example of servant leadership by being a servant leader. Our definition of Servant Leadership here is Servant leadership is a leadership philosophy built on the belief that the most effective leaders strive to serve others. It's an easy leadership style to understand, but much harder to do because servant leadership requires the humility to learn the desires and needs of the followers, and then serve them toward those needs and desires. Christians have the example of Jesus preaching that the one who seeks the most must serve the least. The problem with leaders these days is most don't serve with humility and they don't have a consistent vision to agree on. We have often discussed here that scouts learn by watching, not by hearing. For a youth to change their philosophy of behavior, they must observe the behavior and believe it is one worth duplicating. Humans of the scout age don't permanently choose to change a behavior from intimidations or lectures. They must accept the behavior is better than the one they have. One of the biggest obstacles troops struggle to over come is developing a culture where the scouts trust and respect the adults enough to believe their behavior is worth watching and duplicating. That respect takes time and requires a lot of effort of humility from the adults. But, if the adults behavior is consistent and they provide unselfish reasons for the direction of the troop activities, they will buy into it because their choices in the activities generally make them like themselves better in those activities. That may sound selfish, but the prepubescent mind is paranoid of danger, so changing behaviors requires changing to watch what they feel is a safer behavior. Which is one reason why threats of punishment or sway of lecture generally doesn't have much affect on personal growth. Scouts need to watch safe-decision-making behavior to desire it. As for giving scouts a direction to develop their activities, I found, through my years working with Scoutmasters, that very few of them have vision. And without vision, the Scoutmaster doesn't have a rudder to hold course. That is OK, the program can still be fun and rewarding, just not a life changing experience. Scouts in successful scout-run type troops generally observe two visions from the adults, specifically the SM. They see a belief in a higher spiritual power, and moral direction for behavior. It's not that scouts are looking for a godly person to lead, they are just respecting a leader who doesn't believe they are the supreme authority. How is this person any better than any other adult? The main reason god is mentioned in Scouting in general as a moral action for scouts is that god is the highest authority and gives unit leaders more power to encourage a moral changing program. Kind of a Good Cop Bad Cop relationship. God sets the rules, the SM just guides the program with them. The traits in the Scout Law are the righteous actions of Scout. They are not the opinions of just another blow-hard adult. All actions by anyone in the unit can be held accountable by god. If not the units leaders, then the family. A scout is supposed to learn how to judged their personal decisions toward others with the Scout Law. So, the Scoutmaster who credits (in words or actions) a higher moral authority for their application of the Scout law is showing submission to the higher authority. Servant Leadership starts at the very top. Also, the cultural vision sets the direction of the program activities for all the scouts. That doesn't mean the Scoutmaster lectures the vision over and over. The Scoutmaster consistently judges the actions and activities of the program and relates a tone of direction. And, Scoutmaster's behavior goes far with setting the tone. I had a little time on a campout and walked over to watch the scouts play Capture The Flag. I was in the shadows, so they couldn't see me. When a new scout on his first campout started cursing, a senior scout said, without an interruption to his actions in the game, "we don't cuss here." As far as I knew, we never talked about cussing in the troop. When I asked about it with my son, he said nobody cusses in the troop publicly dad. School yes, but not here." The leader is the gatekeeper of the moral actions of the community. Good or bad, the actions of the community come from the top. Whether the vision is freedom to make choices or a strict environment of rules and guidelines, it generally comes from the leader. In this discussion, the Scoutmaster. And he was right, we adults didn't cuss. And that culture bled into the scouts culture. It was a profound moment for me. When I was the district Scoutmaster course instructor, I also invited Troop Committee Chairs because I wanted them to understand what the patrol method program was, and I instructed them to take responsibility for picking the right Scoutmaster. Or maybe righteous Scoutmaster. A leader with vision and humility of the higher power makes all the difference in the world. Well, I have rambled enough. I am hoping for some discussion because the subject of Scoutmaster servant leadership can be complicated. We don't seem to have a lot of experienced guidance lately on this forum, although there are few here with really good wisdom. The forum has been dominated by the nonprogram struggles from outside interference and forum membership has dwindled. Maybe the scouters in the trenches can change that trend. If scouting is to keep going, the wisdom of experience would go a long way helping the present and future adults run a great program. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The little red wagon is next. Barry

Well done. When I was the district SM Specific course trainer, I preached for units to stop splitting their troop for the summer camp experience. Summer camp is the best and safest place for youth to practice independent decision making and pump up their patrol method development. We averaged almost 100 scouts (95%) at summer camp because they enjoy the experience so much. We typically put the adults in a separate camp site to reinforce the scouts independence. The SPL is the hardest working person in the troop because has all the decision making responsibilities. The only decisions the adult make are the one that require an adult signature. We pay the SPLs camp fees. You’re going the right direction and your scouts will appreciate it. Barry

We live in strange times. Seems that false accusations is becoming a common method of acting out at other people. My high school teacher son says the schools deal with it almost daily. And while many of the accusations are are obviously untrue at the time they are reported, they have to be investigate to show no bias. Forum moderators even have to deal with some of this stuff. Barry

Welcome, and have a great time. Take it easy though, cubs is 5 years long and tends to burn out even the best Eagles. I know of two active Eagle cub leaders that started with the vision of becoming a scoutmaster only to bow out from burnout at their sons crossover. Pace yourself because we need experienced adult leaders in the Troops. Barry

This is such and inspiring story. Thank you God. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

It was normal for me. I typically didn't sleep for two nights before a campout and at least a week before summer camp or high adventure. While we share the program with the ASMs, JASMs, committee, and other resources, the SM is still responsible for results. Even though everything is in place the way it should be, the SM suffers in the hope that scouts come home better than they left. Not just in safety, but in growth. However, on the other side, my wife will tell you there were many nights I didn't sleep because of something great that happened. I just couldn't help laying there with a big smile on my face. Whether it was a great meeting, campout or just a routine activity, there is immeasurable satisfaction (joy) from a great day of scouting. I have no advice other than keep doing what you are doing because the program only gets better. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Well said. I remember back when this forum was the go-to place to learn more games. The Patrol Method and Open Discussion areas usually had at least 3 subjects going on at the same time discussing such ideas. Ah....the good oh days when 800 scouters were logged in. Barry

I believe Uniform and disciplining bad behavior are the two most challenging parts of a scout run program for adults. Adults seem to have an unbalanced passion for these two cases and typically takeover the scouts responsibility to get what they want. I certainly don't agree that the uniform is a main reason a scout doesn't want to go to meetings in a healthy program. The uniform is a great character builder because it clearly defines a scout's right or wrong choice. It also challenges them to define when the uniform should be worn appropriately. Youth today live in a world of mediocrity and don't know how to find the best of themselves. I'm not a fan of how advancement has been used by adults to push their ideal program, but advancement is a method for a scout to learn about their capabilities, while not fearing the differences of others. Every rank should be worn with pride. And it challenges the group to respect each other fairly as the Oath and Law defines. I very much agree. This goes back to what I said about adults impressing their opinion on the scouts when they want it their way. And, I found that a troop where the scouts deal directly with bad behavior has a lot less bad behavior. Many adults think bad behavior is only an adult responsibility, and don't realize they are leaving the scouts dealing it without tools to stop it. Dealing with bad behavior is a challenge for even the adults, so if the program gives everyone the responsibility to confront and deal with it, then the behavior is usually nipped in the bud. But, I admit giving scouts the freedom to learn from their mistakes takes practice, and the humility that adults may do it wrong more than the scouts. Yes, the scouts will gain personal growth, but what does that mean. I once watched a troop scouts bully another troop during the camp volley ball terminate tournament. I watched the scoutmaster smile with his approval with every bad action. What kind of personal growth were those scouts getting. Adults don't have to be the wisdom of personal growth if they just teach the scouts to grade their decisions on the oath and law. Oh, we don't have to preach and preach oath and law, but it we start balancing the choices being made by the oath and law, the scouts will eventually get it. They don't talk about it, but they do learn to balance their decisions. Barry

First year I was Cubmaster I asked a den of Webelos why they chose the troop they were just about to cross over to. They said That troop had the best game at the meeting. A treat would be even better.😀 Barry

Great idea. The problem with structure is that it gets stale, predictable and boring. Young adults hate boring. Move a meeting to a different location like a park for some orientating or fire building. Bring ingredients for smores. Bring backpacks and take a mile hike to review packing techniques and weight. Hotdogs? Just figure out ways to change it up. Teach the scouts how to be spontaneous by bringing a local fire truck to the meeting. A few minutes of fire safety? I don’t know, make it fun. Barry

We! Barry