Eagle92

The only rule change in the last twenty years that our Scouts noticed were the restrictions on pioneering structures. They really liked 20' towers, and no one ever fell. But time passes and those who miss those towers today are all adults. Will a Scout have less character, citizenship, or physical and mental fitness because we don't build those towers? I think not. True a scout will not have less character, citizenship, or physical and mental fitness. But they will have less fun. The will not know the sense of accomplishment of building something using only wood and rope, and climbing upon it. In my old troop's case, they will also not feel the wind racing past them as they ride the bosun's chair ride that the troop use to do at every scout show, with a line going aside the entire 60' -70' of the ride we made using two towers, rope, and a cable.

'Rat, On a vessal, you really want a rigging knife because in addition to a knife for cutting, you have a marlinspike to help undo knots. I should have said that it is not as useful. But I agee with ya, where is the evidence?

You council sounds like mine in several ways. If it's a day camp, have you been to National Camping School to run it? If you have, you should have received a list of ideas in the book. If it is a Family Camp out, have you gone through that training? My council foudn out last year that family campouts have a set of standards that must be completed. Resident Camp folks are suppose to do the training, and I am assuming they have a list of ideas.

JR, I agree, a sheath knife is not appropriate for use on a vessal. That's why my old Sea Explorer ship required us to haev a rigging knife instead.

Eng, I cannot tell you about 400 scouts and staff, but if my expereince with a group of 50 kids and 3 leaders who got kicked out of camp is any indication, pretty darn fast. Within about 1.5-2 hours of the call, everyone in the group, save one kid, was gone. I haven't looked at summer camp national standards in a while, but I know the CSDC standards require you to have emergency plans in place, including evac. As for the one missing kid, the group's leaders didn't know he was missing, but the adult camp staff knew, and did look for him. I admit the adult staff did have "challenges" finding him, but that was due to the fact the youth staff were hiding him in an attempt to keep him at the camp as he was the only good one in the bunch. Long story short, me and another adult brought him back home, and the kid came back to camp the next year as a staffer.

I second Short's suggestion. ANYTHING written by Green Bar Bill is worth it, even his non-Scouting stuff. And GBB wrote the pre-70s stuff. Interesting thing is, not only did he think it up, he experimented with his own troop in NJ, so we know it works.

Yep sheath knives are not banned by BSA nationally, just discouraged. But some local councils do have the ban in place. I know that sheath knives are banned at my local council's camps, but don't tell the OA ceremony teams . I know in several counties and cities in NC, sheath knives are illegal, except for food preparation, educational, and historical purposes. However some of the cities don't even have those exceptions, although don't ask me how resteraunts and cafeterias remain in business legally Me personally, I do not have a problem with them, and sometimes carry my Ft. Bent Scalper from CCTP, and yes I have allowed Boy Scouts and Venturers to use it. As long as folks remember it is a tool, and not a toy, I am good with it. The entire situation with the BSA and sheath kives reminds me of an incident in JROTC back in the day. The battalion did an optional FX one weekend, and we had a company's worth of cadets attend, including the battalion CO and staff. However the FX conflicted with a performance that the drill team, color guard, and select members of the JROTC band had a committment to do. So we had to arrive late. Since this was the first time the battalion had a FX, and I was a lowly cadet SGT or SSGT, I had no idea what was planned. So I brought my uniform utilities and GI surplus camping gear I use for scouting, plus a bayonet I had, for the weekend. Everything was hooked up to my pistol helt and H suspenders I had. Well when we get to the FX started getting some crazy looks from folks. One of my friends said that we were no longer allowed knives of any kind b/c the battalion CO had cut his hand on one. I thought it was a joke b/c I saw the CO still had a knife in his possession. Long story short Co was playing with his knife and cut himself which required butterfly bandages for the weekend, and I think stitches in the long term. The Senior Marine Instructor, adult in charge, stated that only the cadet 1stSGTS, SGTMAJ, and officers could have knives as they were needed for some activities. So guess who got to keep his knife.

CH, One of the reasons why some leaders wear more than the 6 is that they are wearing pre2002 uniforms. Since 2002, the 6 knots max has been the rule. There are of course other reasons as well, and it has to due with history. You see from the 1920'-50s or 60s, Sea Scouts wore modified USN uniforms. Modifications included removing one stripe of piping, add the First Class Anchors, aka "bugs," to the corners of the sail flap and cover, CSP and unit number etc. The when Sea Scouts became Sea Explorers, units could have "Distinct Identity Uniforms" that they could create. While some Ships continued with the traditional uniforms, some modified the traditional uniform to their specific locations, and others created their own. To paraphrase someone on the SeaScout.org boards, this resulted in a lot of "piratical outfits." So in 2002, the national sea scout committee selected uniforms that must be worn for regional and national events. Units could still make their own, although it is discouraged, but to attend events, whites, blues, and workign uniforms as described in the book are required. Now those are based upon the traditional Sea Scout uniforms, but they did away with a few things, and that ticked off some folks, especially those units that never went away from the 1920s uniforms. To further stir the waters, national supply hasn't really kept up with stuff, so soem things can only be purchased via Ships' Stores (who are AWESOME I might add), or still have things labeled Sea Explorers. Emb21 has a great website that can provide even more info than I can.

Plowman, #1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! #2 A you can guess there are different approaches to knots. I've noticed three schools of thought in regards to knots: the "wear what you got school," the "don't wear any school", and the "Sea Scout School" (max of 6 knots at a time). There are reasons why these schools exist. With the "wear what you got" rationale is simple, you worked hard, have been recognized, you wear it. For unit leaders, it can build trust with new parents, show other leaders that you have "been there, done that," and is a nice way of saying thank you. BUT you do have folks going knot crazy, whose sole purpose is to get as many knots as possible. Plus there is a feeling of abuse by some with those knots affiliated with money, i.e James E West Fellowship, NESA Lifetime, and Philmont Training Knot. Also sometimes the knots can make you look like a banana republic general. With the "Don't wear any" school, they think the knots take focus away form the youth, have seen folks focus solely on the knots, and know of people who have bought their knots. For whatever reason, Sea Scouts and their leaders are now limited to 6 knots max on their SBDs and Summer Whites, and no knots on their working uniforms. Me personally, I've seen folks plop down money for West knots. heck one guy plopped down $4K so that his entire family would wear one, so I've seen a CS wearing one. But I also seen that knot used to recognize folks. I know of several units who collected money to recognize a long term scouter, or a retiring one. I also know of 1 gentlemen who bequeathed a large sum so that every Eagle Scout in the council that year, I think about 35-55, got a West Fellowship in their name to congratulate them. While I do wear everything I have on most of my uniforms, both knots and other patches, I do like the "clean" look of my Sea Scout uniform of 6 knots, no Temp or jambo insignia. But I admit I do miss my OA flap on it.

EVD, #1 WELCOME TO THE FORUMS! Why don't ya sit a spell and talk some more. #2 Bnelon44 hit the nail on the head. Some MBs are easier to get than others. And yes the SM is also suppose to assign a counselor for the MB. But also the district is suppose to make sure the MBC they have know their stuff. Plus each Scout is different. Some MBs that might be easy for me, aquatic ones come to mind, may be difficult to impossible for someone else, and vice versa. I know Environmental Science was a challenge, and there was no way I could get nature. Also each unit is different. Some units may have folks who have a keen interest in a topic that makes it easy for the scout to earn that specific MB. Finally, the MB program as envisioned by the BSA is suppose to give the Scout the basic skills and knowledge in a field that could lead to advance training or career interest. I know that Lifesaving got me interested in lifeguarding, and being a lifeguard instructor. First Aid got a good friend interested in medicine, and we had a SM who motorboating MB lead him to joining Sea Scouts, getting Quartermaster, and becoming a marine engineer designing and building ships.

Short, You're bringing up bad. and stinky, memories for me man! Seriously we had one guy do a week in the Canadian wilderness wearing the same flight suit the entire time. Grant you we were all pretty ripe since it was way too cold to clean up, but at least we changed clothes, he wore the same thing. I did learn one thing Mitchum Deodorant is so good, you can skip a day, or 6 On a more serious note about sewing, good skill to knwo not only to fix your uniform, or scout jumpsuit , but also to fix and tears and rips in your equipment. I had several folks shocked that instead of buying a new tent, I used a piece of leather and imitation sinew to fix my tent's tarp.

fred just gave us anopther reason for Sewing MB

Kudu's website is superb. Also The Dump, or the scout dump, is another.

bnelon44, Sorry you are incorrect. Blue cards are an option that most units use, but not all. Never heard of a blue card until I started working for national. Actually what is used to purchase MBs from the national stores I worked at or visited was the advancement reports. On a different note, supply has some silly notions on what is restricted and not at time. The Sea Scout leader's miniture or lapel pin, hat pin, and knot device pin are all restricted items, yet are needed for uniform wear (hat pin and device) or can be worn as a lapel pin in civilian attire,

E' Feel the pain as I expereinced with the OA chapter. Just when you get the youth trained and ready to go, they leave and you start with a new batch. It can be depressing. But when it succeeds, "OH WHAT A FEELING, WHAT A RUSH!" In reference to troops, I was fortunate in that my troop was established, and had a history of keeping older scouts around who mentored and trained us younger guys. Some of those older scouts made Eagle, some didn't, but ALL of them I would be willing to be dropped off in the middle of nowhere with and have to deal with the situation. My questions for you are the following. #1 Are the scouts happy with what you are doing? #2 Do you think you are making a difference?

NJ, Here is the quote in reference to what can be worn at a BOR. Page 29 of the ACPP The Scout should be neat in his appearance and should be in a coat and tie or his uniform ( emphasis mine), which should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board. All, Now in reference to the OP. Some could interpret that the badge being pinned on is not "worn properly." hence the request to reschedule. iamcalvin, Me personally I'd cut a little slack for someone going for Tenderfoot, maybe even Second Class (depending upon how long they have been in scouting). But once you go for First Class and above, more is expected. You are a leader in your troop, and the younger scouts look to you as an example. And as a leader you want to set the best example. Hopefully you've realized that badge bond, or whatever they are calling it now, that you used really is horrible stuff, doesn't work as well as it is advertised, and can leave you high and dry when you need it. Good old needle and thread has been around ages, doesn't take that much time or skill, and in a few minutes As for the reason why they denied you, the BOR does need to write down the reason, a suggested plan for improvement, and give you guidance in the matter. Now I admit I've sat on one BOR that denied a scout his rank. At the time I didn't know about the rule explaining the denial, so one wasn't written. But we explained why we couldn't give him the rank (minor technicality he was short on the time requirements), told him what he needed to do (come back and see us the next week), and we followed up with him (OK not really as he approached us to sign off in his book; we told him that we would just sign off after he met the requirements) Good luck.

Eng, Once upon a time, I remember when youth were on BORs. I remember sitting on BORs as a PL for folks not in my patrol up to the rank of First Class, after that it was adults only. Believe it or not we were tougher on each other than the adults were. Grant you looking at the book, we didn't follow some of the rules, we demanded a full uniform to include current rank (up until 1989 when the time requirements for T-2-1 were dropped and we started having folks go for 2-3 BORs in one nite) and troop neckerchief, slide, and totem. BUT on the flip side, PLs and their members helped each other out. I remember helping a patrol member out by lending him my necker and slide, b/c he lost his during game time and needed it ASAP for his BOR. EDITED: I would LOVE, repeat LOVE to have youth on the T-2-1 BORs again. But I get the serious impression that National specifically, and society in general, do not believe that teenagers are capable of doing things on their own and being independent of adults.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

And why can't National change the blasted names and save us the headaches? That's because the PTB at the time did not listen to us in the field, or pro's who are closer to the volunteers than most folks at national: DEs. About 40 of us new DEs in my PDL-1 class said it was going to be a mess. And when it was told that the Silver Award was going to replace Eagle as the BSA's top award, the nat. dir. was lucky to get out of the room alive

Abel, Actually 3 sets of "active.' Not only the CS one, but check out the Sea Scout ones. for Ordinary 2. Active Membership a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and activities for six months. Note: Check with your ships yeoman. For Able 2. Active Membership a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for one year. Note: Check with your ships yeoman. For Quartermaster a. Attend at least 75 percent of your ships meetings and special activities for 18 months. Note: Check with your ships yeoman.

F' I've seen scouters with cuffed uniform pants. I also had 1 ask he there was a pleated version.

Ok I've calmed down a little. Using these two sites http://scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/TrainingCoursesReport2011.pdf and this site going to the right and selecting "Making Your Training Records Stick! Slideshow" It looks like there is a resource within SCOUTNET that tells you what older courses count towards being trained, so it may be a matter of getting the correct course number with the correct dates. I know why this mess exists and wish the solution was implemented earlier. I remember when I was training chair and older training codes were NOT listed, and we had only 5 "trained" leaders in the district, and the PTC staffer, several trainers, and some WB folks were not the 5 trained leaders. So I was told to enter the codes that the older courses replaced, but put the original dates.

Here is form the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book, #33088 Page 24 A Scout will be considered active in his unit if he is 1. Registered in his unit (registration fees are current) 2. Not dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons 3. Engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (informed of unit activities through Scoutmaster conference or personal contact, etc.) So when it comes time for a BOR, these are the guidelines, whether we like them or not.

Moose, You are joking right?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?! I knew SCOUTNET was messed up when it took 3 months to print out council labels when it first came out in '98 (I kid you not 3 months to get labels printed out b/c it was a SNAFU) So let me get this straight. Even though I have been active, kept abreast of changes, etc, If I move up to a troop or a crew, heck even ACM for that matter, then NONE of my previous training counts and I have to start all over?!?! Who is the genius that came up with that?

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blue, Take your cover to a country western store. They should be able to help you as that is where I got mine. I stress bring your cover as I didn't, and mine is a little large. use it for the good cover. Now I used fabric protector on my old one recently, and it worked like a charm.