Eagle92

Yes Pamlico Sea Base ( www.pamlicoseabase.org ) is AWESOME, and it provides units the opprotunity to schedule normal summercamp with the younger scouts, and HA witht he older scouts at the same time. Didn't realize they advertised Small Boat Sailing, but Boddie does as well. Again if I was touth, I would love the opportunity for a HA activity in my own backyard. The problem with units becoming Eagle Mills for which BadenP, others, and I are upset about is that it is not the Scouting program as it is suppose to be. Look at the Troop Program Features, vols 1-3, to see that the focus is learning a particular set of skills, and then applying them at the monthly camp out. You teach skills based upon ability, with the older scouts, and occasionally an expert, teaching the skills. While some skills can be used for advancement, esp. the T-2-1 level, the goal is not advancement, but learing and having fun. Merit badge Summer Camp Mills remind me of the game of dominoes. Dominoes started out as game of fun and people corrupted it into a game of chance. Folks have been known to lose fortunes, herds of cattle, and yes Eskimoes have even gambled away wives in games of dominoes (although I was told those games were fixed ) I'm glad the domino was a staff emblem at my old camp, because it reminded staffers that Scouting is a game with a purpsoe and that it should be FUN! Summer camp should be the highlight of a Scout's year because they can eat and breathe Scouting for however long they are at camp, having FUN without the outside world butting in. When summer camp turns into a MB mill, their is pressure for scouts to perform,a nd the fun goes away.

Can I try and reconcile? Every council and camp is different. Some camps do make a profit, some break even, and others are subsidized. I heard somewhere that if a camp isn't making 800 campers per summer, then it is being subsidized. 800-1300 is breaking even, and 1300+ is making a profit.

GK, that is how I have always seen the Mile Swim done.

OK I admit I am guilty of the detailed scheduling when I did one CS camp out, as well as CSDC. I do think there is a time and a place for that. But I agree camping should be FUN! Why did I have a detailed scheduled, and tried my darndest to follow it? Because we had folks planning to be in and out of camp as sports schedules allowed. I wanted folks to know where we would be at at a given time, so that when they arrived at camp, they would know where to meet us. So if the schedule said 9-11 Hike to High Rock, folks knew that they could chill until about 11 'cause we were having Fun. One thing that helped though was A) I asked some of the Cubs activities they wanted to do( paraphrasing BP here: Never ask an adult what a Scout can answer). So the schedule originally was based upon what they wanted. Now grant you we had to go with Plan C, or was it Plan D, because of the severe weather (we did have a tornado hit 4 miles from camp, as well as in the city we are in, great YOUTUBE video of that one). Again the key is time and place.

Well this past weekend I had a sad conversation with a new SM. My council operates a great summer camp, and a great HA sea base, a HA program that I would have killed for as a youth BTW. While my predominate resposnibility this weeking was promoting CS camping, I was on the Pamlico Sea Base's Ship Charter back in the day, and have kept up with developments. And the Pamlico Sea Base's display was set up next to mine. So every now and then I talked about it. Well the new SM from the local Eagle mill troop, came up to the display and we talked about PSB. Said it sounded nice, but what MBs were offered at the PSB. When I told him none, it was a HA program, he looked very dissappointed. Again very sad b/c he doesn't get it, and is hurting his scouts and the program. Hopefully he can get to training, but somehow I doubt it. He was a CM for several years, if I remember correctly, and I think I saw him at only 1 district CS event ever.

I don't remember how long it took me to do it, but I was doing it as a "joke" i.e. singing songs, cracking jokes, etc in order keep some of the guys in my troop who took it up to complete it. Whenever I was someone struggling, I'd buddy up with them, talk, sing, whatever it took to get them to focus on completing the swim. We had several 1st and 2nd year campers doing it, as well as me and the other 2 BSA Lifeguard candidates (don't ask, we were told we could do Mile Swim by the AD, and ran into opposition by the AAD who was running Mile Swim). I know I was the last one from my troop to finish. That year we had a Marine MstGnySgt, equivalent to a SarMaj, who did mile swim every week of camp. Don't know if he was Recon or not, but the guy was a fish in the water, and could do the mile in under 30 minutes. He did it freestyle the entire way.

SUCKER! LOL. Seriously though as long as it is fun, isn't causing stress on you or the family, it's all good.

Eisley, Last I heard, National wasn't combining IOLS and WeLOT. I know in 2009 they said they were going to combine them, but last year they said they were not. And the training newsletter that's suppose to come out every month from national hasn't been updated since March 2011.

Yep the focus is on leaders, not cubs and families. In regards to Cub and camping, THEY CUBS WANT IT AND ARE LEAVING IF THEY DO NOT GET IT! (caps for emphasis, not screaming). I am not joking, I had a family quit because we didn't camp enough for them. I had Cubs complain about the "arts and crafts stuff" that we did in the winter months, and wanted to knwo when we were going back outside. One family stopped coming for a while, and was VERY happy that we were doing compass work at one meeting, and another was box oven cookies (ok should have saived it for their Bear year, but I needed guinea pigs for CSDC ) And I have had folks transfer from other packs to mine because we are active during the summer.

I must respectfully disagree with the First Aid not being offered at camp. I think if it is done correctly, you have a winner. I took it at summer camp, and the instructor reviewed stuff with us, but he also took us on hikes where at first pre arranged stations with some supplies were available, and we were given situations to deal with. By the end of the week, we had to provide our own supplies and use our heads to adapt. I also like adding Indian Lore. Then I had the LC as my MBC, and I know at my camp, it's taught by AIA folks who know there stuff. Interesting thing about cinematography: one camp I worked at used that class to come up with the camp promotions video for the next. Soemtimes two or more classes worth of film would be merged together, and always the video was shown at the closing campfire. Same camp also had a Journalism MB offered, and the class did the camp newspaper for the week. Yep it was a "paperwork" MB, but those guys not only did interviews and write articles during the class session, but also on their free time. They also worked late at nite sometimes to put out the newspaper. One MB that was popular that I'd like to add was Archeology. We had a grad student teaching it one year, and he held the class to the tough standards of the field. BUT he also was working on his own thesis, and needed to make sure the standards were kept.

Not an official item, I'd put it on a vest, blanket, or pack.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Please keep the ideas coming!!!!!! In reference to what is going on, this is the council's annual program extavaganza, which tells the leaders everything that is coming up. So this is more of a camping and outdoor promo to CS leaders, than Cubs and their families. BUT there some in the council who believe Cubs should not go camping. I know it is total hogwash, heck I am the guy who lost a family b/c my pack doesn't camp enough (3 events in 8 weeks is not enough!), but yes there are folks who do not care for CS camping. So part of this is to also show that "YES, CUBS CAN CAMP!" (caps are for titling my display, not shouting at you folks). So what I am trying to do is 2 fold. 1) promote camping and the outdoors, with an emphasis on Council activities. 2) attract attention and show what cubs have done and that yes they can camp. Back on topic, 10 essentials are a good idea. Also going to add fishing rod and reel. PLEASE KEEP THE IDEAS COMING!

Ok here's the situation. I was asked to help out with promoting Cub Scouts in the Outdoors and Camping at a council event tomorrow, yep tomorrow. What are some ideas you have for promoting camping and the outdoors for Cubs? To be honest I do not know exactly what is involved, limitations for the display, etc and I have emailed for clarification. I do know that if I create my usual Day Camp and Resident Camp promo videos, I have to find a laptop or TV and DVD player to play them. I don't have a laptop, and my portable DVD player is on the fritz again, so I may not do that. Here are some things I am planning to bring, to "Be Prepared" Tent Cooking gear Sleeping bag BALOO Book Walking Stick Photos of Cubs from day camp, res camp, and other camping and outdoor venues. Any other ideas, suggestions, etc are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

"CHEESE GROMIT!" Sorry I had to do it. If memory serves Wallace and Gromit saved the Winsleydale cheesemakers from going bankrupt. Good stuff as dad-in-law got some for his birthday (with Wallace and Gromit on the label) and shared some.

Seems to me, done right, this is one of those that would really attract boys to scouts! THAT IS A FACT!!!!! ( and yes I am yelling with this one What started out as the troop adapting to a bad situation, all of the tents were mildewed and unservicable, turned into our yearly recruiting event for Webelos visiting the troop and going on a camp out: SURVIVAL CAMP OUT. Ok I admit was not true wilderness survival, but it gave them a taste and the Webelos ate it up and wanted more. They would be split up among the patrols, and each patrol had to create their own shelter. Prior to the camp out we taught the Webelos lashings so they could help make the shelters and other stuff. We had all types pf patrol shelters from the simple to the "condos," and we had permission to not follow LNT in the area we were in. Now we did allow sleeping bags and packs, but they were limited to what they could bring. Cooking was utensilless cooking, i.e. foil cooking, brown bag cooking, burger in an onion, etc, but again not true survival. Just somethign out of the ordinary. Now the parents and leaders would sleep in tents if they wanted. But some did do their own shelters, but others stayed in tents. I vividly remember one leader saying "H377 NO, I'm staying in my tent!" but after learning what he use to do, teach SERE, we found ourselves a new WS MBC that weekend.

Yep, he can wear the Den Cheif Service Award until he becomes an ASM at 18, or if he goes into Venturing, 21 and becomes an Adviser. Yep Venturers can also serve as DCs.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? and yes I am shouting in complete and utter disbelief. Wilderness Survival is one of the "FUN" MBs, and not a paperwork one. I admit I took it at summer camp, but they worked us hard on it, and the nite out was a "practical." I admit I cheated: in addition to the stuff the MBP listed, I added a few extras like garbage bags, and used them as the base layer to my shelter top. Although I was cold from the wind, I was dry. I still think the best class was the one I was the second adult for one year. The entire class of 10-15 hiked out about 2 miles form the base camp sat around for about 30 minutes while the MBC waited out everyone to make sure no one had any contraband. the instructor gave a scenario, gave a bag of supplies recovered form the airplane before it exploded and that was that. Oh and injuries would occur periodically to make it more challenging.

Officially I'll say check with your district/council person on the topic. Me personally I'd recommend either WeLot or IOLS. BALOO is just the very basics, and the other two courses are more advanced and cover nearly the same topics. Again personally I'd say IOLS over WeLOT or see if your council is one of those that combines the two.

Let me see if I can help and not confuse you anymore 1)This is Scouting is required for new scouters. If you have taken an older version, you are ok. BUT there is a caveat 1 at the end. 2) I am cutting and pasting the PDF information for different positions from national. There is a Caveats 2 and 3 at the end CUB SCOUT Fast Start (OLC) Youth Protection* (OLC) Leader Specific, by position (OLC) This Is Scouting (OLC) BOY SCOUT/VARSITY SCOUT Fast Start (OLC) Youth Protection* (OLC) Leader Specific or Troop Committee Challenge (by position) This Is Scouting (OLC) Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills*** VENTURING/SEA SCOUT Fast Start (OLC) Youth Protection* (OLC) Leader Specific (by position) This Is Scouting (OLC) Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills** 3) National does not require WeLOT, but see Caveat 2 Below. Caveat 1: You need to make sure that the dates you took your older training and the dates the course was available coincide in SCOUTNET. I know that a few years ago, some of the training courses were not listed in SCOUTNET, and to solve the matter, my DE said A) use the new training code, but put in the correct date, and B) if anyone staffs a training course, put them in as a participant as well to make sure SCOUTNET records them. Solution A probably caused the problem we are seeing now in hwich trained people, who updated their records before older course codes were developed and hence use the new codes with the old dates, are not considered trained. Caveat 2 Councils can make some courses required, i.e WeLOT. Also some Councils will also give you credit for WeLOT if you can show you have IOLS, since the two courses are so similar, some folks have created a combined course, and national was in the process of combining the two courses. You will need to talk tot he district or council training chair for clarification. Caveat 3: A few months back, it was reported that those folks taking Venturing Youth Protection Y03 were not showing up as "Trained" in SCOUTNET as it was only programmed to accept Youth Protection Training Y01. So in order for SCOUTNET to A) register you as a leader at recharter, and B) Show that you were trained, you had to take both YP and VYP. Good link to keep up with stuff is http://scouting.org/training/adult.aspx good luck.

The challenge I see is that some leaders do not take off the extra bling in the public eye. And their units usually follow suit. Perfect example, I have seen one leader wearing both the blue and the red loops on same eupalets, with both the CM and ASM POR patches worn on the sleeve, temp patches on both pockets, and whistle attached like he was a bosun on a Sea Scout Ship.

I admit I have not been impressed with some of the 13-14yo Eagles I met. I also haven't been impressed with some of the 18yo Eagles either, but I digress. I think the problem most of the folks who are upset with 13yo Eagles is that A) BSA has watered-down some of the requirements, B)there are numerous examples of folks "working the system," and C)Some, not all but some, of the young Eagles do not truly know the basics that would be expected of a First Class Scout a decade or more ago. That is the one that draws the most attention. A) Let's face it, while my Eagle was a challenge to get( late 1980s requirements), looking at some of the requirements pre-1972, a little more outdoor expereinced was required. Grant you that would not have been a problem in my troop, 10 weekend camps or hikes (mostly camping and sometimes both), 1 week summer camp and an optional week of wintercamp)per year, But I know some of the troops I've seen lately would have major difficulties. I was shocked that some troops close down for summer (that was our busiest time)andonly go campign 4 times/year! B) We all have stories of scouts getting 2-3 ranks in one nite. heck I even mentioned miy story a few times here. I liked having the time requirements at the T-2-1 level because it allowed Scouts to not only learn the skills, but give them time to practice and develope. While I know we are nto allowed to retest the skill, but seeing them use the skills over and over again for several months allows them master the skills. Doing a one time for signoff and forgetting about the skill is gaming the system IMHO because we are hurting the Scout directly, and the Scouting movement overall with this by producing an Eagle who does not have the basics down. That will destroy the public image of Scouting. Best example I can give is the time at church we has some have an accident. Because everyone knew I was a Scout, grant you a very new one who had crossed over the month or two before, it was EXPECTED (emphasis) that I knew first aid, and could treat them until EMS arrived. Luckily it was something taught in Readyman. But there was a sense of pressure that I should know first aid. If an older scout would have been involved and did the "do once for sign off and forget the skill" would have been there, it would have severely damaged the BSA's reputation, and mroeimportatnly possibly put the victim's life in danger if it would have been more serious. B) Gaming the system. MBUs can pose a problem. Yes I have taught at one, and even gave an all day Indian Lore MB Seminar. But I made it know that there is no way to complete the entire MB unless you did a bunch of work ahead of time (which I did list for the eager beavers, which was quite a few in fact). But again you have some MBCS who would have given enveryone credit for a MB that was not fully earned. Again we have all heard stories and or seen it, especially at summer camps. Also heard about, and I have personally seen, folks who sign up as MBCs for numerous MBs in order to do MBs for their troop, or in the case I have seen, for their own son. Yes I know there is no national policy limiting the number of MBs a MBC can counsel, nor does national disallow a family member from being a MBC for another family member. But when dad has signed of on all but a handful of MBs that a scout has earned,the Eagle's goal is to get all of them, and when you ask the Eagle specific questions about ones that he has earned and that you you counsel and the Eagle cannot answer the questions, you know there is a problem, and the scout, or more likely dad, gamed the system. Talking to that Scout left a very bitter taste in my mouth, and I can see why folks were not happy that national awarded the Eagle on appeal. C) Some, not all but some, 13 yos do not have the KSAs expected of an Eagle. I have also seen the same problem with 18yo Eagles as well. Part of that problem comes from gaming the system, the "do once for sign off and forget" mentality. Some of it is because they do not have the time at the T-2-1 level to truly learn and master the skills, for them it's a Race to Eagle. Some of the problems lie with those units that are not "hiking and camping" troops going out every month. And yes part of the problem is adults butting in and doing things for the younger Scouts that older Scouts should be doing. Older scouts should be the ones teaching the T-2-1 Skills, not ASMs. The scouts should be running troop meetings, not the adults. And I can go on. Now will a knowledgable 13 or 14 Eagle Scout be perfect and not screw up on occasion? HECK NO, and even older Eagles will make mistakes. But that is the beauty of Scouting. The scouts CAN screw up in a safe environment, learn important lessions, and move onwards. Some of life's best lessons come from failure. Heck I know a 30 something Eagle who has made some mistakes in relation to Scouting events, and is still learning.

This is some personal observations on what an Eagle should be. I've met a few 13 year old capable of doing, not many but a few, and I have also met 18yos who couldn't do it. An Eagle scout should be capable of the following 1) take charge in an emergency first aid situation until someone with more experience and training can take over. 2)be able to adapt and improvise in a wilderness situation should something arise. 3)Should be able to live comfortably in the outdoors for some time. 4) Should have basic orienteering skills to be lead a group out of the wilderness. 4a) should be able to read a map to come up to alternative evacuation routes should the main evacuation route become so jammed that it takes 18 hours to go what would normally take 1. More later

Must respectfully disagree with you Jeff. We as leaders need to set the example for the scouts in our charge. We need to follow the rules and regs. Now if you want to show off patches, rotate them using plastic patch holders.

Actually sports drinks are now suggested for use in heat related injuries by AHA. We kep a few bottles in the frig at day camp last week.

I was fortunate in that the troop I grew up in was a "hiking and camping troop," and getting Eagle wasn't the focus. But I was under pressure from my Eagle cousin, and a heck of a lot of pressure from Uncle "Double Eagle" to get it. Funny thing was once I got it, and sent the invites to them to attend the ECOH, they never did show up to the ECOH. Had two big roles for them ot play in the ceremony, but that was OK. My first SPL in the troop, the one who mentored me and worked with me when I was a brand new PL, had come home in time from Iraq, and he took over their roles. More appropriate IMHO. Anyway, I have seen one Eagle mill up close. Very adult led, and pressure from parents to get Eagle and move on. Although some Eagle do stay on, usually attending one or two of the "megatrips" that they do. Only time you see them is district and council camporees. Occassionally at district banquets.(This message has been edited by eagle92)