Eagle92

They have their time and place. I know that as exhausted as we were last nite, DOWN AND DERBY, which a bunch of us saw for the first time last nite, was a welcome relief. Would I rather a campfire, ABSOLULTELY. but I'd rather a funny movie than a lame campfire.

Base, If I am the one mixing the two programs, please bear with me. Even going into my 3rd year as a CS leader, I still have a lot of the BS leader in me While I know the Cubs cannot lead themselves, I ask them for their opinions. I want to know what they liked, disliked, and what they want to see at events I work on. Sometimes the wants list are doable, sometimes it takes a bit of planning, and other times, well the Cubs can be very creative Also we have 2 packs that do their own thing, with little to no district interaction. 1 is the LDS pack, so we have come to expect that. The other is a very affluent pack, and can do their own thing.

In your role as a troop committee member, I'd wear the unit necker. As for being CM, most do not wear neckers, but here is your best option: http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsa/uniforms-insignia/bandanas-neckerchiefs/cub-scouttm-leader-neckerchief-new-size.html Also if you are an Eagle Scout, they have a bunch of neckers available. Now I do wear neckers, and I rotate through them. I got a comment this past weekend when a group of Cubs saw me without one one. Thatwas because I had one of the new, properly sized ones, and used it for first aid earlier in the day.

Maybe I'm overly simplistic? Maybe I'm just from a unit that was youth led, and if the Scouts didn't want to got to local events, we didn't go, so I am very pro youth led? Maybe that old "representing the group" session of BA22 and JLT hit a cord with me? Or maybe it's the mentors I had? But I not only agree with 2Cub, I think I'm expanding his premise. Every single leader, unit and non-unit, needs to support the wants, needs, and desires of the scouts in their charge. ( bold for emphasis, not shouting.) Units need to provide the best possible program to their Scouts. And program meets those wants, needs, and desires of the members in them. Districts need to provide the best possible resources and program to the units, so that all scouts in the district have the same set of opportunities. Ditto councils, and to a lesser extent, regional and national.(regional and national provide mostly resources, but a few program opportunities as well.) It is sad that a district committee is doing this to the scouts in a unit. While I understand being upset when units do not take advantage of district opportunities, I am on the district committee after all, my concerns would be "why," and "how can we make it better," or "What can we do to improve the event?" Once we started doing that with CSDC, we are growing by leaps and bounds. As for unit leaders taking over events, mixed emotions. IF, and I am stressing the IF, you have the time, and it will not adverserly affect the scouts you are directly responible for, then by all means help. But if it will hurt them, no. Hardest thing I've been saying lately is "No." I was on the district level before being a DL, and I get asked to help out alot. My den is the primary responsibility.

OEAE brings up a good point. You can not control folks who do not follow policy. All you can really do with them who are adamant are 1) you pray that nothing happens, 2) if it is your power, then remove them. 3) Bring it to the proper attention. But be prepared for the consequences. I had a CD who allowed a non-swimmer to go canoeing without a lifeguard in the canoe, allowable per G2SS at the time. Also he allowed folks to use the COPE Course without a director present. While I brought to the attention of my supervisor, thinking that it would be brought to his, my supervisor backed the CD and did not do anything. I was persona non grata at camp for the remainder of the season, luckily able to drive 30 minutes each way to my house. It was only after camp was over, when the CD's boss found out what happened, that anything was done. But during summer camp, it was very challenging as I got no support from my boss, or the camp staff, excepting friends on staff. EDITED: didn't i read somewhere that if something happens that is specifically prohibited inthe G2SS, national's insuracne will not cover anything?(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Again from the G2SS, p 15. If a well-meaning leader brings along a child who does not meet these age guidelines, disservice is done to the unit because of distractions often caused by younger children. A disservice is also done to the child, who is not trained to participate in such an activity and who, as a nonmember of the group, may be ignored by the older campers. One reason why I try to avoid bringing the younger kids to CS events by myself.

OEAE, Crossed posted. Yep you are correct and I cited the page for ya

This is what the G2SS states on p 15. on the matter A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Webelos den/troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. Notice it does NOT say parents are mandatory, nor do they give cub:leader ratios. The committee is messed up.

Blanc, Correct on FOS, I wasn't thinking fully. This really ticked me off, and I went into automode. Now I do not know all the ins and outs of the council approved CS camping list, i.e. if councils can only approve places in council or not. Currently my council doesn't have list, but we are working on it in conjunction with the local OA lodge. But why would a council limit the opprotunity of Cubs? Why would a person need to get permission to go camping at a non-scout campsite in a another council's territory IF the home council approves? As for who approves the tour permits, I'm willing to bet an overworked office staffer does it, checks to make sure everythign is compliant, and rubber stamps it.

As I stated in the original thread, I have never, ever, in the 19 years as a professional or volunteer have heard of such garbage. Yes council can limit your selection of campsites to those preapproved, if your council even has a list. But to say you cannot go out of district or council? Here is what I would do FWIW. 1) have a friendly cup of coffee withthe foks saying this and ask to see where that is written. 2) remind them that they are not providing an adequate program per the charter agreement. 3) If the above doesn't work, then have the CC, or better yet the COR write a nice letter to them stating that they are nto living up to their agreement, and that they are no longer invited to do FOS campaigns at BnG. 4) If 3 doesn't work, have the COR consider mailing the SE, stating the problem, and how they think that BSA might not be the best possible program for them with the current restrictions,and that the CO is considering not rechartering. This is a bunch of garbage.

Base, I have never, ever, heard of such a thing before in all my years in scouting. I am going to respond in the spun off thread as this is ridiculous.

You will lose alot of membership besides the LDS folks if homosexuals are allowed in. When it was announced that SCOTUS was going to take the Dale v BSA case, I had one CO drop their pack because they were afraid that the case would be decided against the BSA, no matter what I said, they did not want to have anything to do with an organization that allowed homosexuals to be leaders. Again this was before DALE was decided. After Dale, Scouting for All, a group that wants to repeal the BSA's ban, did a series of protests at council offices in major cities throughout the US. One of those protests was at the council service center I worked in. That local council got a bunch of phone calls supporting the BSA's position, wanting to know how they sign their kids up, and did not realize Dale was decided in the BSA's favor.

back in the day, we had 1.5 hours. BUT it was a fun 1.5 hours. Opening, skills, game time, patrol, corners closing, etc etc.

BNELON, As a former pro who has dealt with records, I can tell you that I never see anything related to a unit's program. The closest thing would be the old quality unit reports, and they didn't deal with program, but numbers. Now I am going to do some guessing since I was a Scout having fun when FCFY came out in 1989, but based upon my expereince since then all the national folks did was use stats from recharters to come up with the data. That said, anecdotally via looking at units in the districts I've been in, those units that have an active program tend to keep the Scouts longer. Those units that focus on advancement, tend to get large numbers of Eagles, and then they drop out of Scouting, not keeping them active. Those units with poor programs tend to lose scouts. And of course those units that have an active program, may or may not have scouts getting FC in a year, but the scouts tend to be a little bit more knowledgeable, and tend to stick with the program, even if Eagle is no longer possible due to time requirements. Again that's my anecdotal expereince. EDITED: In regards to FASTRAX and the current Den and pack meeting book, I was told both by folks who used FASTRAX, as well as form postings that they about 90% identical. One change for the better is that you are no longer obligated to use the format in the exact format it is presented, you can adapt it and move meetings around.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

First framed backpack I had was in 1988, and it had no hip belt. It was either the BSA handbook at the time, or the old 3rd ed. Field book that I got hte idea of using an oversized belt, and making a hipbelt.

CUB SCOUT SIDE OF THINGS AGAIN (caps for warning) While Cub Scout 2010 did in fact move advancements to the meetings, all supporting literature: the handbooks, leaders manuals, etc, still state that parents can sign off in the books and it get recorded. But it sounds as if the new books wants only that stuff that the new den planning book says is to be done at home. And I can tell you that A) not every den is using hte book and B) Some den leaders are adamant about not using the new program b/c when they did the FASTTRAX version of it, it didn't work and the Cubs were not having fun.

Check around to see if any of your local venturers or scouters are certified to teach. I know in my neck of the woods we have 2 ARC instructors (1 who also teaches W&RFA), my self as a AHA instructor, and one who is ceretified via a different agency. I know I offered one time to teach at cost, and no one took me up.

Looking at the CS side, it looks like they are trying to slowly move away from the parents siging off. This caught my attention: 4.1.0.3 Who Approves Cub Scout Advancement? A key responsibility for den leaders is to implement the core den meeting plans as outlined in the Den & Pack Meeting Resource Guide, No. 34409. For Wolf, Bear, and Webelos advancement, den leaders take the lead in approving requirements, though their assistants, and also parents who help at meetings, may be asked to play the role of Akela and assist. Parents sign for requirements that, according to meeting plans and instructions in the handbooks, take place at home. (emphasis mine) For the Bobcat trail and Tiger Cub achievements, parents (or adult partners) should sign in the boys handbook; the den leader then approves as progress is recorded in the dens advancement record. p14. Also looks as if the Sports and Academics program now fall s under Advancement.

Until I got to CSDC, I have not said signs up. Now I did do a few "Gentlemen, I got all day," "gentlemen, I got all nite," and "we are wasting your game time." I was told by one scouter that, "The Cub Scout sign represents the ears of Akela the Wolf. When the sign goes up, the mouth goes shut. The eyes are locked onto the person who raised their sign, and the ears are open so that you can hear what they have to say.

Try some of these links. http://www.scoutshops.com/acatalog/scout-neckers.html http://www.scoutshops.com/acatalog/Scarves.html I personally like the flashing neckers

Sailing, Don't tease me as I cannot get the link until I go home tonite. On another note, if i am not doing other scouting stuff, and SWMBO lets me go, I'm hoping to make it to the Cardinal Wardroom's Koch Cup Qualifier next month.

Irsap, While my troop always said uniforms for the ride there and back, it was created by the PLC and enforced by them. Yep I saw a PL send a scout in his patrol back home to get his uniform on before leaving on a trip. Adults didn't say anything, it was all on the PL. While all of our Sunday return trips included a stop at MacDonalds for lunch, we timed it so that we would be home after the morning church services (about 1:30- 2PM) no matter how far away, we always wore the uniforms because it was expected. I do know that one time driving to a camp, my car broke down. We were in uniform, and we got help rather readily. Another time I was in uniform driving to a pharmacy for one of my sick scouts, the uniform was because I was suppose to return in time for dinner, when someone pulled out in front of me. This caused me to go into a ditch to avoid hitting them. A tow truck happen to see me, got me out of the ditch, and didn't charge me b/c 'I hadn't done my good deed for the day yet." BP, A few comments. 1) Agree with you 110% with the crossroads comment. We as a whole are promising one thing: adventure, the outdoors,and fun, yet are not delivering that promise. We do need to get back to our roots. 2)I don't think uniforms are that big of a deal killer with Venturers, but programing, or lack there of, is what is hurting. A consistant active program is the key. And let's face it, national has a role to play in the lack of consistant program. National keeps changing things to the older youth program: Sea Scouts, Senior Scouts, Explorer Scouts, Explorers, Sea Explorers, Leadership Corps, venture crews, ad nauseum. It seems that national cannot let a program develop long enough to be on it's own and recognizable, before it changes. EMB, you and other folks who have been in the field longer than I can probably elaborate a lot more. From my perspective, it is onlythe har dworkof volunteers at the local level who are providing a consistant program. Sea Scouting is probably the best example of that as national has not done much, but the program is still alive.

SP Yeah I know about the FCFY program and about the stats that "prove" it as a successful tool to keeping members. BUT what I'm willing to bet is the scouts who were part of the initial FCFY research in the pre-1989 period, back when there were time requirements for T-2-1, those scouts were members of active troops that went camping year round. Thus they had the opportunity to wrok on outdoor advancement. BP, Agree with your 100%, love it when "experts" come in to tell me how to run program, when they have no experience. ON ANOTHER NOTE (caps to note a change in subject. The key IMHO to keeping scouts is PROGRAM, PROGRAM, PROGRAM! (and yes that is shouting). I've seen units where there is a high number of Eagles, but have few 15-17 yo scouts in the unit. Create a great program, and folks will not only come, but stay!

While the 100% wool jac shirts, or "red jackets" as I commonly hear them, are going away, they are on sale for about $55 on Scotustuff.org IF they have your size, looks like they will now make a 85/15 wool/poly blend red jacket that is washable, just like the green ones. Only difference between the two beside color is that the BSA logo will still be a patch, and not black embroidery.

RS, I'm waiting for Sea Scouts to be able to wear the NWUs since there is an agreement between BSA and the USN for Sea Scouts to use their uniforms with modifications. As for USCG uniforms, I know of shome ships that have used them, again with Sea Scout modifications. I've aslo seen pics of one ship wearing old BDUs, don't remember is Sea Scout insignia was on them or not though. As for my troop growing up, once we reached camp, most of the time once the campsite was set up, we switched into cammies, saving the uniforms for the ride home.