Eagle92

More than likely yes. If a reporter is not familiar with the BSA, I've found that they tend tyo mess things up, even if you give them detailed info sometimes.

Forgot to add, this was also a reason why she didn't look for a new troop for my brothers after they moved to the 'burbs.

That last should read But one reason is what one of my JLT staffers , who took WB about a month or so after JLT, told me back in the day. JLT and WB were so similar, he didn't learn anything new from WB and recommend taking it after I got out of Scouting for a while and came back in with my kids and in need of a refresher course. All bold is edits. Sorry about that. I can remember vividly what was said, and also what was implied. This conversation took place while in college, when I thought I would be leaving Scouts for a while to join the military. Unfortunately that didn't happen, and I ended up being a DE. At least I met the wife while a DE

It doesn't matter what studies say, it is what parents think. If parents have a fear that their child will be molested by a homosexual leader, then they will not allow their child to join. I always wondered why my mom was so concerned about how my leaders acted. In college doing a report on sexual abuse, I discovered the book A SCOUT'S HONOR, and read about the sex abuse scandal that hit my area in the late 1970s. 10+ years later my mom was still concerned.

'Fish, Good thoughts. My reply is based upon BA 22 and JLT, the youth versions of WB back in the day. First off there were two versions of WB: Boy Scout Leader and Cub Scout Leader. There was briefly an Explorer WB, but it didn't last. By combining the two courses, information specific to programs seems to not be there. Grant you this is coming second hand. Now from my observations. When you attended BA22 and JLT, just like the old WB, you were expected to have the basic scouting skills mastered by being First Class. These courses took it to the next level by giving you the opportunity to no only perfect them, but also teach them, and utilize them in your unit. So you basically lived the Patrol Method for the week, learning how a troop should operate. WB replicated that by letting the leader see how things should be through the eyes of a scout. I know when I worked for the Eckerd Foundation, they used this same approach in training. Now the leadership and management classes were there. But they were also modeled how they could be applied in a patrol and troop environment. The lessons learned were applied, again giving you expereince on how to run the troop. I admit I do not plan on taking WB21C anytime soon for a variety of reasons. Family commitments and money are the two biggest. Work is another and so are the other scouting commitments I have. But one reason is what one of my JLT staffers told me back in the day. JLT and WB were so similar, he didn't learn anything new from WB and recommend taking it after getting out of Scouting for a while and coming back in and in need of a refresher.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

I agree with Base. A Scout who is First Class should have mastered the basic camping skills, and be able to handle himself comfortably in the woods. Let's look at the outdoor based requirements for the ranks. Tenderfoot 1) Present yourself to your leader, properly dressed, before going on an overnight camping trip. Show the camping gear you will use. Show the right way to pack and carry it. 2)Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch. 3)On the campout, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share in meal preparation and cleanup, and explain the importance of eating together. 4a) Demonstrate how to whip and fuse the ends of a rope. b) Demonstrate that you know how to tie the following knots and tell what their uses are: two half hitches and the taut-line hitch. 9) Explain the importance of the buddy system as it relates to your personal safety on outings.... 11) Identify local poisonous plants; tell how to treat for exposure to them. 12a) Demonstrate how to care for someone who is choking. b) Show first aid for the following: Simple cuts and scrapes Blisters on the hand and foot Minor (thermal/heat) burns or scalds (superficial, or first degree) Bites and stings of insects and ticks Venomous snakebite Nosebleed Frostbite and sunburn Second Class 1a) Demonstrate how a compass works and how to orient a map. Explain what map symbols mean. b) Using a compass and a map together, take a 5-mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian.* 2) Discuss the principles of "Leave No Trace" 3a) Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight. b) On one of these campouts, select your patrol site and sleep in a tent that you pitched. Explain what factors you should consider when choosing a patrol site and where to pitch a tent. c) Demonstrate proper care, sharpening, and use of the knife, saw, and ax, and describe when they should be used. d) Use the tools listed in requirement 3c to prepare tinder, kindling, and fuel for a cooking fire. e)Discuss when it is appropriate to use a cooking fire and a lightweight stove. Discuss the safety procedures for using both.. f) In an approved place and at an approved time, demonstrate how to build a fire and set up a lightweight stove. Note: Lighting the fire is not required. g0 On one campout, plan and cook one hot breakfast or lunch, selecting foods from the food pyramid. Explain the importance of good nutrition. Tell how to transport, store, and prepare the foods you selected. 6) Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of wild animals (birds, mammals, reptiles, fish, mollusks) found in your community. 7a) Show what to do for "hurry" cases of stopped breathing, serious bleeding, and ingested poisoning. b) Prepare a personal first aid kit to take with you on a hike. c) Demonstrate first aid for the following: Object in the eye Bite of a suspected rabid animal Puncture wounds from a splinter, nail, and fishhook Serious burns (partial thickness, or second degree) Heat exhaustion Shock Heatstroke, dehydration, hypothermia, and hyperventilation And First Class. Demonstrate how to find directions during the day and at night without using a compass. Using a map and compass, complete an orienteering course that covers at least one mile and requires measuring the height and/or width of designated items (tree, tower, canyon, ditch, etc.) Since joining, have participated in ten separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight. Demonstrate the principles of Leave No Trace on these outings. Help plan a patrol menu for one campout that includes at least one breakfast, one lunch, and one dinner and that requires cooking at least two of the meals. Tell how the menu includes the foods from the food pyramid and meets nutritional needs. Using the menu planned in requirement 4a, make a list showing the cost and food amounts needed to feed three or more boys and secure the ingredients. Tell which pans, utensils, and other gear will be needed to cook and serve these meals. Explain the procedures to follow in the safe handling and storage of fresh meats, dairy products, eggs, vegetables, and other perishable food products. Tell how to properly dispose of camp garbage, cans, plastic containers, and other rubbish. On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup. Visit and discuss with a selected individual approved by your leader (elected official, judge, attorney, civil servant, principal, teacher) your constitutional rights and obligations as a U.S. citizen. Identify or show evidence of at least ten kinds of native plants found in your community. Discuss when you should and should not use lashings. Then demonstrate tying the timber hitch and clove hitch and their use in square, shear, and diagonal lashings by joining two or more poles or staves together. Use lashing to make a useful camp gadget. Demonstrate tying the bowline knot and describe several ways it can be used. Demonstrate bandages for a sprained ankle. and for injuries on the head, the upper arm, and the collarbone. Show how to transport by yourself, and with one other person, a person: from a smoke-filled room with a sprained ankle, for at least 25 yards. Tell the five most common signals of a heart attack. Explain the steps (procedures) in cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR). Tell what precautions must be taken for a safe trip afloat. Sounds to me that if a Scout can do all that, he can take care of himself.

I know Round Ups were a PITA for me when I was a DE. PTB wanted me do do one thing. Namely to get the family to pay the rest of the charter year, and the next year up front. So if Pack 123 had 3 months left on the charter, the new scout paid for a year and 3 months. While I usually had pack reps at the RUs, sometimes I didn't. Some of my units wanted it this way: Do the RU and let the unit handle the applications and money. let the Cubs come to a few meetings to see if they like the program or not. Luckily I like what we are doing now. Pay for the remaining charter TELLING THE PARENTS about Pack Dues and when they are due. That helps.

"Advancement should come as naturally as a tan...something that occurs by being in the outdoors." If your folks are using the new Den and Pack Resource Book, or whatever is called, then advancement should come naturally. Key is to make it fun. I also recommend getting them outside as much as possible. I'll give you an example. We had a campfire with marshmallows (don't tell RichardB ) Sang a song or two, but focused on stories, particularly folk tales. Kids liked it so much, we had visitors: 2 Tiger Dens and a Wolf Den. thankfully we had enough marshmallows to share. Another nite we did the bike work, had a bike cop come out and talk. Then did the bike course we made. Yep we gave them homework too: Go for a bike ride with the family. KISMIF

Base, Don't let them get you down. One of the best SMs I ever met, one that truly lived by the Patrol Method, one that would sit back and let his scouts make mistakes at Philmont because A) it was a learning expereince and B) he was enjoying the views, one that if you had challenges doing anything and needed help, he was there for his scouts... ...never completed his ticket. He had more important things to do with his family, and his troop.

While Kudu can defend himself, I do have a few thoughts. Yep national got rid of real patrol camping due to lawsuits. It sucks I know, but we have to adapt, improvise, and overcome. One way of doing that is having folks 300' apart minimum. I remember in my old in the 80s and 90s being so far apart from other patrols and the leaders, that you didn't really know they were there. Unless some screaming and choice language was heard. THEN you knew the leaders around .

My thoughts. If a well with a cap and a pump, like Blanc's first link, then I too would not purify UNLESS noted. If an open well, then yes. Now I don't own a pump, but I have used one once and it was a pain to pump. I've used iodine and vitamin C tablets to get the taste out. I've also used the bleach before too. But back then, I was lifeguarding and the taste didn't bother me Someday, when I really need it, I'm going the straw filter or gravity fed filter route.

Pappa, Is the adult a Venturing Youth? I know Venturers can wear their Eagle until age 21. When I worked for Supply, while at camp we could wear the Venturing Uniform with the national insignia instead of the tan and green since the rest of the camp staff wore one. My sales clerk loved that b/c he could wear his Eagle badge on the uniform since he was 19. But he didn't wear the knot, nor the medal all the time.

A few comments. 1) Ask. I know we had folks a few years back that found it easier to attend my district's RT and events than the district they were in. They talked to council, and the two towns these units were in are now in my district. 2) District's are there to SUPPORT units. While some things may get interesting, recruiting new members and OA camp promos and unit elections come immediately to mind, nothing says you have to do your own district's activities.

While my troop did not have the exact same problem, ours was similar. We had booked rooms with the original CO in advance, then at the last minute change them on us for whatever was going on with the CO. Because of the constant last minute rescheduling, as well as other issues (our storage room ransacked, and when we moved everything to an outside storage shed, the CO used it as a dartboard, causing lots of damage) we found a new CO. What my current pack does is works with the CO's main office that handles scheduling.For the most part we are good, but every now and then something slips through. CO has grown so large, and has so many activities, that they are in the process of building a separate building for youth programs.

make sure it's a NATIONALLY OWNED (caps for emphasis) shop, and not a council distributorship. I tried to return some ripped up pants to where I bought them, and they woudl not accept them b/c. national charges them a restocking for the return. Yep national should replace it for normal wear and tear. I had to replace a 30+ year old pack one time. and all it was was normal wear and tear.

(shakes head) Kudu, Kudu, Kudu, You and I both know that the 3rd. SMHB is only basic training, and that you need to get GBB's WB course, or at least his BROWNSEA Z2 course (which I have the syllabus for if anyone is interested), to expereince the patrol method up close and personal

BP, Correct the SCOUT EXECUTIVE (caps for emphasis) is the only one that can REVOKE a person's membership. DE's are sometimes placed in the position of informing the individual, like you had to do, or blamed for the removal. Even though I had become DE after the incident and after the individual brought a lawsuit against the council, I was viewed as the villian and was persona non grata with folks from that unit. In fact 8 years after the lawsuit, the unit folded, I left scouting professionally, and had left the area only to return due to my mom-in-law's health, I was still blamed for the situation by someone I ran into who was involved in the unit at the time.

Posted my response in the Mystical and Magical Powers in the spun off thread. Hey BP, did you have mystical and magical powers after going through NLT? I sure didn't after PDL-1

WOW I wish I had "mystical and majical powers" when I was a DE. Ok joking aside. On the unit side of things, unless things hit the fan, i.e. YP and G2SS issues involved, then no a DE or any other pro can dismiss someone, and actually it would be membership revocation. That said, I have seen one leader have his membership revoked. Even though the leader was in my district, and the court case (pre-DALE) occured while I was a DE, the powers that be did not tell me anything, even the fact that the court ordered his membership reinstated while it heard the case (had to find that one out when he showed up at a RT in uniform and I called the SE). Again I do not know anything, but heard rumors that A) it was because he violated G2SS, B) there was an accident and the council's insurance wouldn't pay and he pitched a fit, C) he constantly questioned council policy and actions, and D)he confronted council executive board members publically in a resteaurant about council policy. But again I stress these are rumors and I do not know the exact reason why. Now if you are on the district committee, I can tell you that the DE and other pros will try to influence the nominating committee to take people off the list. My SE didn't want some long term scouters who were doing an excellent job in their roles to continue b/c "they are anti-council." Another reason why I was on his list: I said I couldn't find another person with the individual's KSAs to do the job even half as well, and we really needed him in the role. NOW playing Devil's Advocate. I have met folks who are so into themselves, that they forget why they are in their jobs: for the youth. Sometimes folks want to do everything, and you need for them to focus on one specific activity to do right. Also seen folks play politics, also detrimental to program.

Well I'm old school, and to be honest I do not know what it would take to cancel a Boy Scout, Sea Scout, or Venturing outing. I've done survival camping in the outerbands of a hurricane at a council level training, Brownsea 22, and had to deal with a sudden cold front dropping temps 20 degrees, bringing on rain and wind on another trip. I also had to deal with parents on a troop camping trip, stopping the troop from doing a hike in the rain for which the scouts were fully prepared for, but the siblings were not. Lot of anger and resentment ove that, esp. since we planned the trip for about a year, and it was a 14 hour drive roundtrip to do the hike. So I do not know. But I do know that I would plan for emergencies, and adapt to the situation as needed. As for Cub Scouts activities, I am a lot more cautious. I do not want to make a campign expereince miserable for them and the parents as that will turn them off. Also from a personal expereince, I know how difficult it can be to pack up in normal circumstances, can't imagine how it would be in the rain. I know the weekend the pack went camping last year said their was a possibility of severe weather, and remote chance of tornadoes. Since the camp was 20 minutes away, we went on, but modified the shedule so that everything was over before noon, giving us time to get back home. Everyone but me was gone by 11, I left at 11:30, and we had another 2.5-3 hours of beautiful weather. Then the severe weather and tornadoes hit. We planned it well. But I discovered that the local baseball programs were still going on until about 2 or 2:30. basically when the weather service said take cover.

Stressing, not a Woodbadger, but basing my observation on the old Brownsea 22 course I took, and the JLT course I staffed. Both of which are predecessors to NYLT, and I am told are almost identical to the old WB courses. This is in response to this comment there is not time over two woodbadge weekends to do a course-and-a-half. The courses I mentioned had an expectation that folks had a basic degree of knowledge and skills. For Scouts to attend, you had to be First Class and 13, so you had mastered the basic outdoor Scouting skills, and had at least 1 year (even pre 1989's FCFY program, it was possible, stress POSSIBLE, to get FC in a year, although most folks I know did it in 18-24 months)of Scouting expereince, but more than likely 2 years. The intensity of the old program was designed to hone those outdoor skills to perfection, enabling you to not only do the skills, but teach them. As for the classes, they were designed to introduce the patrol method and running a troop for those whose troops were not doing so, and then perfect it during the week for all. It expanded upon the content learned at the troop level training. So the intensity and the amount of info delivered to the course was deliberate.

All I can say is this. The one CO that dropped their unit BEFORE Dale v BSA was decided did so because they did not want anything to do with homosexuals. They were informed about how they got to pick their leaders, but they were concerened about OTHER unit's leaders. Also I will be doing some research a 1970s abuse scandal that hit the New Orleans council, and how it affected membership. I have anecdotal evidence from one mother, my own, but I want to see what's out there.

Tampa, Actually is was not a bad experience overall. Only major problem was from the unit across the pond that used their spotlight and laser on the screen while the movie was on. Once they were taken care, it was a very good expereince.

Forgot to add, while the council family campout did have a movie instead of a campfire, each pack could have their own campfires, and most did. Some while the movie was playing, but most afterwards.

Mixed emotions on this topic as my pack does somethignlike this. We all meet together and have an opening and annoucements. Then break away. Advantages: Info is out there to everyone. Nicer opening ceremonies Everyone realizes they are part of the pack Disadvantages: Some info is not relevent to all dens. Sometimes can go longer than anticipated, cutting into den time. Late arrivals need info repeated. I'm an old fogey, so I'd prefer to have it done as it always have been. But all scouting is local, and needs to meet the needs and desires of the local audience.