Eagle92

Calico, I missed your post earlier, so I'll respond now. In reference to me talking to the scout, it wasn't at the EBOR, but at an event later as he was wearing both the Eagle badge and his sash to the Den Chief Training being conducted at UoS. Just as folks who see a Scout or leader in public will come up and talk to them and reminisce about their Scouting expereince, or a WBer who sees another WBer will go talk about Gilwell, etc I saw someone with a MB that is a personal interest of mine and approached them to talk. Again it wasn't an interrogation, but a friendly chat. Now your argument is that the EBOR is just suppose to make sure that the Scout has approached the MBC and gotten a signed blue card or signed off on the MB (some units don't use blue cards) correct? Well what about a situation that 3Cub describes, i.e. the MBC when approached just signs the card without having anything verified as done? Now before anyone thinks I'm trying to be anal retentive on the topic, I'm not. You gotta remember I'm the one who at 18 years, 1 month and 4 days had his EBOR, which I thought the questions and answering went well, and was told that I was not going to get my Eagle b/c the current DAC was not the one who signed off on my project 5 years previous when I did the project. Rather I am trying to find out what a BOR, especially an EBOR, can do when they deny rank and try to help the Scout out to get it. It seem as if every case that gets appealed get approved by national. On a different note, I think part of the problem is that advancement problems do not get recognized until the EBOR since T-L BORs are done on the troop level, and sometimes advancement problems are either not recognized, are overlooked, or are encouraged.

Bart, We cross posted. Actually according to the G2A the BOR has the following purposes: decide whether he is qualified to advance ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements If a board decides not to approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what he can do to improve. Most Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not completing requirements properly. If it is thought that a Scout, before his 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If he does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. It must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures.

'Rat, I agree with ya. Heck I heard scouts this past weekend lamenting this fact. What I can say is this: whenever you hear folks talking about Eagle as a goal, whenever you you hear folks pushing to get Eagle, you got to tell them what the real purpose is. I was having a conversation with a DL yesterday, saying that he wanted to have his son get Eagle ASAP so he will get it before losing interest. Had to tell him the real purpose of scouting was, and how the best way to keep the scouts interest is to give them responsibility and adventure. Told him I know of units where they eagle at 14 or 15 or so then leave b/c there is no program there for the older scouts. Then I told him of a troop where folks didn't care about getting Eagle, but they kept coming back b/c they were having fun and had a responsibility to work with the younger ones.

Bneleon, If you notice, I mentioned that a BOR does not question a MBC's approval for a MB, and I pointed out the specific section of the G2A on the matter in a previous post. Again once it is signed off, the Scout get the MB. But you still have not answered my question: What is a BOR suppose to do when through discussion of a scout career, they notice that MBs that are listed for whatever rank were not really earned by the Scout? Say, for example, a First Class Scout is using Swimming, First Aid, Camping, Family Life, Pottery, and Indian Lore MBs to meet requirement 3 of the Star Rank: Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle.* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ___________________________________(required for Eagle)* ____________________________________________________ ____________________________________________________ But in the course of the BOR when asking questions related to his overall scouting expereince it comes out that some of the requirements for these MBs were not completed, so what is the BOR to do? As I stated, G2A doesn't allow for a BOR to deny a MB; once it's signed off it is done. BUT the G2A also states a BOR has a responsibility to make sure the requirements are met for the rank, and can deny the rank explaining what the scout need to do to meet the requirements. Do you see the contradiction in the G2A now?

Bnelon, What about if you talk about a MB that they have listed as using for their Eagle, but they really didn't do the work thatthe MBC sign off? According to the G2A, you don't question a MBC's approval of a scout's MB, BUT G2A also states a BOR makes sure the scouts "was supposed to do to meet the requirements...." through a series of questions in which "The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do." So the question is can a EBOR, which finds out that a Scout did not earn certain MBs for a specific rank that he said he earned and sued towards the rank deny him that rank? I think that is the problem, and the frustration. National is giving contradictory information out. Wouldn't be the first time.

Wearing knots reminds me of this quote by one Devil Dog who, when asked about what his ribbons represented, stated things done during "a misspent youth."

JoeBob, Somewhere in the YPT or G2SS, sorry can't remember which at the moment, the topic of areas like your aircraft carrier, where an entire group is berthed in one area, does come up and if certaint things are done, is OK YP wise.

Veni, Unfortunately I know of a unit or two like that. Sign off the requirements, get your Eagle, and bye bye. This past weekend was my district's camporee. Normally they do a variety of scout skills, but this one was a MB weekend. I know, I know, but there were extenuating circumstances, and this was put together last minute. Their is already a camporee chief in place for next year and work has begun. Anyway, I didn't go, but talked to some scouts who did. They were disappointed b/c there were no skills tests, and that's what their troop likes. Conversation reminded me of camporee 2 years ago when their patrol (they are a 1 patrol troop) was the only one that was able to start a fire, boil spaghetti, and tie it into a knot without any assistance (the only other patrol to do complete the event was a NSP, and they were shown and told what to do by the judges after they did absolutely nothing for 10-15 mintues). Their comment was that most scouts are focused on one thing, getting Eagle, that they really don't know what to do. Camporees were the closest that most get to basic scoutcraft. Another example was I got a phone call about lighting for the campfire as some of the OA's supplies were thrown away. The chapter chief called me at home to try and figure out what to do, it was as if he couldn't think on his own.

WAKIB, One reason why leaders may not show the videos is b/c of complaints about the videos. Way back in the day, one of the things we did was a health awareness day for Cubs that was put on by the local nursing school. It covered all the health topics in the various books, and overall was a hit. BUT the #1 station that got the most complaints was the YP video for the Cubs. I had a lot of parents complain, even though we told them in advance what the video was on.

For the various training knots, I have no problem with people submitting themselves for it. In fact since a "scorecard" is given out with the requirements and is to be duplicated as needed, I think that is the intent of the knots: recognize those adults who go above and beyond. As for submitting yourself for some of the special awards, or making deals with other (I'll submit your name if you submit my name), yes that is very, very tacky. But I know a lot of volunteers who are to busy with program to remember submit paperwork. I know I've been on district committees on and off (mostly on) since '95, and earned the DCK a long time ago. But I didn't turn in the paperwork until the DE reminded me that I earned it and should turn in the paperwork. One thing I will say is this. With the coming of MANDATORY TRAINING (caps for emph.), if you earned the knots, I'd go ahead and submit the paperwork and make sure it's in your SCOUTNET records, even if you do not intend to wear the knots on your uniform. With SCOUTNET records having the habit of getting messed up or incomplete, having the knot on the record, or in my case having the certificate, may help in clearing up training records since the knots shows you have gone beyond basic training. And that reminds me, gotta turn in the peperwork for my TCDL I earned 2 years ago.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I am almost due for YPT, but don't we call the cops first, then the SE? As some know one of the camps I worked at in the UK had an incident onsite. Luckily for us, of of the service team members was an off duty LEO, and dealt with the situation. Didn't know you could get hurt that bad falling down 4 steps.

Jay, Actually I don't think an MD will count for WFA for the BSA, and nothing in the lit search I did, a quick search but one on the Philmont site, on says either way. But in talking to a few first responders, they basically said that MDs are not the greatest to have around in an emergency, except possibly Emergency Medicine physicians with EMT expereince. Their complaint is that the MDs are use to doing things one way, with all the nice tech they have in their offices or in the hospital, and that they cannot adapt fast enough to field situations.

Tampa, Maybe it was just my class, but again I did not learn anything new in BALOO, except a knot for making a waterbottle carrier. And the knot was something to do during breaks and was extra.

One thing I like about IOLS: TEST OUT OPTION! One thing I wish BALOO allowed: A test out option. Now for old fogeys whoa re retreading, one thing I've seen is get them on staff to teach the course. We had a 3 beader who had not done IOLS as he got his beads as a CM. BUT he had an extensive outdoor background and was a MBC for a bunch of outdoor MBs. But he was "untrained" as an ASM and crew adviser. And with his involvement in scouting: Troop, Pack, OA, WB Staff, and District, he didn't have time to do IOLS. So how did he finally go through IOLS, and this was before we knew about the test out option I might add? He taught an IOLS course.

I have mixed emotions on the topic of No parents and unit scouters." On one hand I see parents getting so involved in things that they really should be involved in, that it winds up with the parent doing the work, and the kid not doing a thing. Or as in one situation, the parent filled out all the forms and did the communications with me for their child that A) the shadowing expereince that was set up did not conform to what the child wanted because the parent did not know exactly what the child wanted, B) child did not read any of the information that was sent, thus was not dressed appropriately and C)Child threw a public "temper tantrum," when the child was brought to the area that they were scheduled to shadow in, but was not the are she wanted. And I see this more and more. Another child waited to the last minute to complete a school project, and wanted to have the shadow experience the next day. When informed of the days and times that it is done, and the fact that it can take up to two weeks to schedule, she was shocked. When she called and I informed her on the next business day that I had not heard back from the dept. director to approve he shadowing, she gets her father involved. She didn't want to deal with the situation, she wanted her parents to deal with it. part of the reason for the projects is for the students to develop responsibility, but with parental involvement, it doesn always happen. So I can see where folks are coming from. But parents do need to be involved and know what's up. BUT they also must realize that teh SCOUT need to own up to the responsibility.

This is how I came about my opinion of the scout. As you know, I'm big on Native American cultures. So I am always interested in learning more. Seeing his MB sash, I approached him to talk to him, being a friendly scouter that I am (ok I was a DE at the time, but I have since returned to the light side ) on the topic. So I asked which tribe he studied and what did he learn about them. This was not to quiz himor test him as it was a conversation. I was interested in local tribes as I had just moved to the area and wanted to learn. I got the deer in the headlights look. I asked about games he learned and taught, not because it is requirement 3A, but #1 games are always cool to play and am always looking to learn more #2 as a Den Chief games are a must to know, and #3 most scouts I've counseled in I Lore use this as it is the easiest one to meet of the 3 options. Again deer in the headlights. We move on to other MBs that he is wearing, and again it as if I'm talking another language. Now here is the problem I am seeing. You have the section 11.5.0.0 of the new advancement guide that states that there is no BOR process and that MBCs are the ones that "qualify" the scout for the MB. Ok See that and understand But then you have several sections that state that the BOR is suppose to see if the scout actually did what he was suppose to. And for Star, Life, and Eagle that means earning MBs. Section 8.0.0.1 which states decide whether he is qualified to advance and 8.0.1.1 states that Though one reason for a board of review is to ensure the Scout did what he was supposed to do to meet the requirements, it shall become neither a retest or examination, nor a challenge of his knowledge. 8.0.1.2 states that A Scout may be asked where he learned his skills and who taught him, and what he gained from fulfilling selected requirements. The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. So what happens in a case like the one I described where it becomes obvious to the BOR that the scout did not meet the requirements for the rank, i.e. earn x number of merit badges, because it is obvious that the scout knows nothing on the topics of said MBs? 8.0.1.5 states If a board decides not to approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what he can do to improve. Most Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not completing requirements properly. If it is thought that a Scout, before his 18th birthday, can benefit from an opportunity to properly complete the requirements, the board may adjourn and reconvene at a later date. If the candidate agrees to this, then if possible, the same members should reassemble. If he does not agree, then the board must make its decision at that point. In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. It must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures. (See Appealing a Decision, 8.0.4.0.... And of course 8.0.4.0 has the process to be followed. Now research is suppose to be done on the matter, but do we really know how much is done? Also I have heard of appeals being denied at the council level, only to be overruled by national. So my question is this what can a BOR do about this? The BOR can either deny, which will likely end up with the scout getting Eagle via the appeals process, and then fix the problem via the MBC list.

In regards to your IOLS class that you did....

When I did my instructor recert for AHA, they mentioned adding baby aspirin and benydryl to the kits. But when I taught the Hearsaver FA and CPR w/ AED course, it wasn't mentioned.

Sax, call your local store. There is a special form that is used for custom items. That are call national direct.

Sax, And I thought I was a uniform policeman Seriously though why do some units wear repro red and white town and state strips? Easy tradition. Now one thing about IGs, they only deal with CURRENT (caps for emphasis) insignia, not older ones. Give you an example. I have a patch from back in the day that I can wear on my jac shirt's right pocket. But guess what, if you look in the IG, you won't find it b/c it is no longer made. As for names like "Crazy Eights," some old units may have names from way back in the day, and they are better known by those names than the number. the Koshare group is one example. As for the Venturing side of things, crews may design a "crew patch" to wear in place of the Venturing BSA patch. They got this from Sea Scouts, as the Sea Scouts wear ship's patches instead of numbers, at least officially but Supply still sells the numbers. The crew my CO has has an awesome patch: has the unit number in 4" numbers "shadowed" with scenes from activities they did their first year on it. And as for Sea Scouts, b/c of it's history, you still have a bunch of folks in "piratical outfits" or ignoring current regs and keepign the 'Bugs" on the covers and unit numbers on their sleeves.

Sax, Wow talk about an old thread. In regards to "Phase out date" no such thing. If you have a vintage 1940s uniform, it's still good. I was told, and the lawyers on these boards can expand, that if BSA dsaid an item is no longer uniform, they lose control over some legal control over it. Again that was what I was told. So when oldest becomes a Boy Scout, I'll be wearing my red loops and numbers still. As for color of numbers and when this thread was started, not even the folks in a national stores could tell you what was up as it was a mess. I called my old store about this issue to get the correct info, and even they didn't know what was up and gave me the wrong info. Also national literature at the time gave the wrong info, so I see CS leaders in tan and green numbers and trained strips. I say it's vintage Fall 2008. Also to make everything as clear as mud, national said that the ODLs and CUs were interchangable in the literature at the time, so that items from one uniform could be worn with the new one. So those red loops and numbers are OK. So as long as I can wear my uniforms still, and I got a bunch, I'll be wearing red loops and numbers.

Beav, The problem is this: if a BOR is appealed b/c the BOR found that the requirements were not properly done, who do you think will win the appeal? Not trying to be a PITA, but a realist. I've seen similar things happen, and heard of one case where every member that sat on a district's EBORs quit over an appeal. Something about MBs not being done properly, sorry do not remember the details, and the scout was denied. It was appealed and granted over the wishes of the district folks. The district's folks said it would be no problem for the Scout to do the MBs correctly as he had several years left before aging out, and could do them at summer camp. Funny thing is this, not know who he was, I ran into him aa a UoS b/c he was doing DC training. He had the sash and medal on, and I struck up a conversation about a few of the MBs on the sash. He had a deer in the headlights look as I asked him some questions about Indian Lore MB that he earned, which led me to ask other questions on MBs in a conversation. Scout acted as if I was talking in another language. After he left, my coworker asked me what I thought about that Eagle, and after I gave my opinion, informed me that he was the one his advancement committee quit over.

Jay, I agree, you would think that if you had IOLS, then you wouldn't need BALOO. Only thing I learned new was how to tie some funky water bottle knot that was a extra for the heck of it thing the instructor taught during breaks. Now Moose does bring up the rules, but if you are current with your G2SS, it's in there. I think the worse part of my BALOO was that it was indoors. First thing I did when I was asked to do BALOO was fill out permit to use the local camp. GBB said it best: "ScOUTING IS OUTING!" And that quote was me shouting at you guys!

They are referring to Summer Camp/Day Camp seasons. So my NCS cert that I got in Mar. 2010 is good for the Summmers 2010, 11,12,13,14. Hence it expires in 2014. Reminds me, cant get recert in 2014 and I need to be a TCDL that summer with youngest.

All I will say is that there is a very lively discussion on the YAHOO NEWS about this boy. Some of it relevant, some not.