Eagle92

Namu, Best thing I can offer is talk to your scouts and see what they think. They may have liked it, or they may say skip it next year. My district's camporee was this past weekend. I didn't attend, but knew that b/c of some challenges it would not be like a normal camporee; instead it was turned into a MB weekend with 2 MBs being offered. Well 1 troop decided not to go at all. Feeling was that they get enough MB classes at summer camp, and want to have fun(I am going to spin off on that one) and not have to deal with more classes. I talked to 2 scouts from another troop, and they said camporee was boring b/c it was more MB classes, even though the MBs were ones not normally offered. They may not go back next year if they do MBs again. But here is the funny thing. At RT last nite when asked about reactions to the different format, one of the SMs said his scouts loved the fact that it was MBs and they want it like that next year. I ahd to comment that one troop did not go at all b/c of the MB format, and another troop didn't find it fun.

Base, No disrespect 'cause I've seen some of the eagles and leaders you are talking about. But there are folks who know outdoor skills and could test out of IOLS. I wish the test out option was available back when it was SM Fundamentals. And I wish BALOO had a test out option for folks who had IOLS. I don't mind mandatory training, heck I think training is very important and serve as a trainer, but it looks as if national wants us to go through retraining every time they change a course if I'm reading the training update correctly. And I'm sorry, but I am busy dealing with a family and putting on a program to attend a training course on material I already know every time they change the name. That's what Round Tables are for: keeping current with BSA info.

Well I admit I do have mixed emotions on this. On one had it is less clutter. On the other hand the knots will become collector's items. Anyway it gave me incentive to turn in the paperwork for the TCDL and CSDL knots tonite. I'll buy a couple of each, but only wear the CSDL knot. I hate the devices too, and no longer wear them as they a pain to put on and wear. TCDL knots are going in drawer. EDITED: actually upon reflection, put them all in the drawer. I really don't kneed anymore knots on the uniform. Sea Scouts got it right:6 knots max. Also just realized their is no TC device currently in national supply(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Fish and BP, 2Cub hits it better than I can explain. And when it was mentioned tonite at RT, several folks commented if they had to redo all the training they have done over the years, they'd resign. To better explain I'll give a few examples. You have a CS leader who took the old day long CS Leader Basic Training, which has been replaced by individual TCDL, CSDL, WDL, CM, and CC Specific courses. They attend RTs, do various jobs for the district etc etc and are active and keep up with all the current information. Under this new policy A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver. Or take the long time SM who completed SM Fundamentals back in the day, which was separated into 3 different components: This is Scouting, SM Specific, and IOLS. Again until he took those three courses.A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver. Now I admit I am not as up to date with any changes to Venturing training since 1998. But say you had an advisor whose crew was originally an Explorer post, and he did Explorer Leader Basic prior to the conversion and was grandfathered (I know there is some debate on that But I am taking the former national director's word on this one) But again until he took those three courses, A) they would no longer be considered "trained" eligible to wear the trained strip until they took the new courses for their current position, and B) They would not meet BRONZE level criteria for JTE because they have not taken the new courses, let alone Gold and Silver. OR let get a even more comical example. Under this new policy even if you took your latest Leader Specific Training, if you have not done "This is Scouting," but did the older course that it replaced, you are no longer eligible for the trained strip b/c that is the new requirement. EDITED: Whenever the requirements for the trained strip change, you have to meet those. And teh trained strip requirements will be in JTE ALSO I just realized that this affects youth as well. If your youth haven't attended ILST or Den Chief Training for Scouts, and Venturers attended Crew officer orientation and ILSC, they no longer qualify. But at least venturers can still wear the VLST strip.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

SP, Personally I think the bad idea is not allowing older training to be used for J2E. That and folks who met the Trained Strip requirements using older courses/requirements during their tenure having to reearn the trained strip whenever courses/requirements change.

JK, Your story reminds me of a FA MB class I sat in on way back when. The cardiologist teaching CPR was not teaching what ARC and AHA was teaching at the time, rather he was saying do compressions hard and fast and 30 compressions then 2 breaths. 20+ years later....

Looks like there will be fewer knots, but more devices. from http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx Awards and Knots The national councils awards committee recently conducted a review of the hundreds of awards presented to Scouts and adults in the BSA. Many recommendations were made to simplify and update procedures, and the awards themselves. Among the recommendations was the update of some awards and/or the knots that represent them on the uniform. These include the training awards and the Cub Scouting awards. For example, to give the award the same recognition as the other top unit leader awards, the Cubmaster Award will become the Cubmasters Key and use the Scouters Key knot. The Cub Scouter and Pack Trainer Awards will use the Scouters Training Award knot. The Tiger Cub, Cub Scout, and Webelos Den Leaders Awards will use the Den Leaders Award knot. Devices to be worn on the knots will be available to indicate which awards, and for which program awards were earned. Scouters who have earned the awards will still be able to wear the old knots as long as they are available. The training team is currently reviewing and updating the requirements for the awards. So watch here for news, but we expect the details in early 2012.

CE, Test out is written in the current book, and there is a thread on it somewhere. Looks as if national will be formalizing the process.

BP, This is for ALL programs; Boy Scout, Sea Scout, Cub Scout, and Venturing.

In trying to look up a source from national about test outs, I found something else and spun off. But this is what national has written There is also discussion about a test out or opt out option for leaders. There are some concerns about the potential safety issues that come with lesser training, the lack of a connection to other Scouters, the importance of the patrol method, etc. On the other side there are those that say this can be very effective, or that some training is better than none. We are working on a formal, mentored, test-out option for districts and councils training teams to use, and we are monitoring councils that are already doing the test-out. There will be no opt out option. There are too many Eagle Scouts from troops with poor leadership who may have 21 merit badges, done a great service project, and are leaders, but have bad outdoor skills because their Scoutmaster does. There are also too many experienced outdoorsmen who know how to survive in the outdoors, but do not know the outdoor practices of the BSA or how to work with 12 year olds in the outdoors. At this time, we prefer that Scoutmasters and assistants attend a full Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course, but we know that that is not always possible. We also know that a mentored test-out has value and is much better than a totally untrained leader. So, here is an update of what was written on the subject last year: In addition to other prescribed training, Scoutmasters and assistants should attend an Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills course to be considered trained. However, if a course is not available, tenured Scouters that can demonstrate all the basic outdoor camping skills for the Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class ranks may not need to take the full course. They should contact their district training chair and schedule a one-on-one mentoring session with a member of the training team. Many tenured leaders probably own the skills and should be able to adequately explain how to demonstrate each one to a member of the training team. The training team mentor should coach the individual through areas where additional help might be needed. Upon completion, the training team member should report the completion of training to the council office. http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

Saw this in the Training Updates from National But to be able to wear the trained patch, and for the unit to qualify under the unit Journey to Excellence (JTE) standards, trained means that they have taken the current training set for their position. Why the difference? The BSA has long believed that a tenured leader does not need to take basic training every time there is a new course - because the assumption is through supplemental training, roundtables, Scouting magazine, and participation in activities, they stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program. We know this is not always the case. There may be a challenge getting tenured leaders to take the time to take a new course. In most cases these leaders can be excellent resources for the training committee to put on Specifics or an outdoor skills course. (Be sure to give them credit for taking the course when they do!) But the hope is that leaders will take - or teach - the latest course to be sure that they have the up-to-date information related to their role. At our October committee meeting we took some steps to help make the criteria for being trained in ScoutNET, for earning the trained patch, and the unit JTE match. More on that in the next issue of Training Times. For the full article: http://scouting.org/training/trainingupdates.aspx

IOLS is not mandatory YET, but it's coming. Councils can require it, especially if you are in one of the pilot councils for mandatory training for all leaders. In regards to IOLS test out options, my advice is to go to a council source about the test out option as it is the last edition of the Training committee book, whatever it is called. Some folks do have the KSAs to test out of the course. However councils can require you to take the class. If they do, see if you can do what my 3 beader friend did to get IOLS trained: help teach the class. My 3 beader friend went to WB as a CM, and when he became a ASM and crew adviser, he was "untrained" b/c he never did IOLS. This despite being a MBC for camping, backpacking, etc MBs. He never had time to take the class because he was busy with the troop, crew, OA, and WB staff. Finally he get's asked to teach the course, and does it. This was before mention of the test out option was known. As for the rationale behind it, I hate to say it but I am seeing more and more folks with little to no outdoor skills becoming leaders. IMHO this is a major problem. Adults need to have the basic scouting abilities down pat to not only set the example, but also to help the older scouts teach those skills IF needed to. Also if things hit the fan, adults need to be able to help out the Scouts as equals, not being hindrance to the scouts.

Namu, I understand your concerns. KC gives a good explanation, and I can elaborate some more. 1) Some events lose money either by not charging a fee, or charging a low fee to get participants to attend, but doesn't cover the full cost of the event, or something unexpected occurs. I'm thinking of some training events that fall into this category. But sometimes program events go over budget too, and other program events have to help make up the overall difference. So those events that do make a "profit" goes towards those that don't to balance the overall spreadsheet. 3) Not only do supplies used at the event count, but also any mailings, printing costs, etc for camporee books, etc. Trust me printing can get expensive. 4) If your event was at a council property, you have to figure that into the "profit." Trust me operating a camp is not cheap with ranger, equipment, maintenance, etc that is done year round, not just when the camp is in use. Even with a property usage fee, it really doesn't cover the full cost of year round operations. So some of the "profits" goes towards that. 5) Emergency funds. Trust me I plan on 5-10% for emergencies when I do event budgets, and something always comes up at the last minute. But if those funds are not used, those are considered "profit" in my neck of the woods.

Yes CS leaders are the hardest to convert to Patrol Method and Boy Run. I hope I remember that in a few years.

Pretty much. Besides units folding and folks moving,I know of only two cases where the youth wanted to transfer.

Unfortunately Youth Protection is needed, for both protecting youth and adults. I've had to keep a pack occupied while the camp official dealt with a leader locked in a cabin with youth (that was in the UK), and I had a friend be accused of making a pass by a scout, a scout who was to lie and accuse adults in order to get out of trouble (he accused me and 2 other adults of giving him permission to stay out late at a NOAC). The thing that saved me from trouble was A)there were 2 other adults present, and B) the scouts in his group recanted and told the truth.

'Rat, If memory serves, a few months back, they got an IT professional to be CIO, and not another professional scouter. I believe the new guy has a good rep in the field. That said, while I like promoting from within, and the BSA does just that,you do need experts to do some things, and sometimes they have to come form outside the organization. I know the guy in charge of selecting and implementing SCOUTNET in 96 -98 time frame had no IT expereince being a SE who got promoted, and used a company that has an IT rep of low bidding, giving a "beta" version, then starts adding fixes that companies need to pay for. One of my coworkers quit the IT sector to become a DE, and at PDL-1, had the chance to talk to him about SCOUTNET implementation. He said there would be problems due to his lack of experience, and the only folks to OK were supply who didn;t implement SCOUTNET.

My advice. 1) Give those who are in PORs warning NOW that they are not doign their jobs properly and you will not sign off on that requirement. Better doit now than wait until the term is over and they expect it signed. 2) For those not in PORs, I'd have the older scouts talkt to them abotu doig their fair share. If they don't want to do their share, encourage them to leave now. Funny thing, we had a scout transfer out of my troop. He wasn't happy with the way things were. But he transfered about 18-24 later back into the troop as we were more active.

OH HECK YEAH THE BALANCES SHOULD BE PRIVATE! I was one of those scouts who worked every fundraiser I could to afford scouting. I would not want folks to know how much, or how little, I had inthe account.

KC, Not doubting you, but I've never expereince a council collecting the unit's copy of the blue cards before, and I've been in 5 so far. I think that is kinda extreme personally. But as for MBs and Advacement reports, we had to count every single one of those. Worse though wasn't the MBs, but the Cub Scout arrowpoints and Webelos activity badges. For those units that used TROOPMASTER and PACKMASTER, a summery of the awards were given, and we used the summary sheet to count awards. Some units had mercy on us poor clerks. Instead of listing a scout and then everything they earned, they listed the award, then everyone that earned it. Saved us so much time.

Yep, some SCOUTREACH programs have paid "paraprofessionals" who will operate several units until enough volunteers come aboard, get properly trained, and can take over so the parapro can move on to the next unit. Other SCOUTREACH programs have retired volunteers who do the same thing. That is how it is in my district: a retired volunteer serving 3-5 units. As you can guess Scouting is now his life, and he loves it. And he puts in a lot of hours. Unless you tried starting units in a minority area, you cannot imagine the challenges there are to get them up and running. I started several units as a DE, and the minority units were the hardest to get oprganized, hardest to get volunteers for, and the hardest to get going. Also the established minority units had more challenges than the other established units. It sometimes takes someone who can devote their full attention to the units. It's not easy, and the paycheck for the parapros is not a lot. The ones I have met and worked with are in it for 2 reasons 1) Love of scouting and 2) to make a difference. I know when I applied for a parapro position it was also for 3) to gain experience to become a pro. Unfortunately i didn't get the position, but a good friend of mine did get it, and did a terrific job. But it was very demanding on him. EDITED: I do not like having an all minority unit as I think all units should be integrated. But troops IMHO need to be community based, with members living near each other, going to school together, etc. And unfortunately communities do seem to be self segregrating due to socio-economic conditions. One reason why I am glad to be with the CO I am with; only one other CO is integrated, and the a good portion of the leadership from that CO's units came from us.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Proper advancement forms are the Advancement Reports, and that has been in effect since at least 1992, and probably a lot earlier. However not all places did that. I know at the national store I worked at, we asked for some proof of earning whatever restricted award. Depending upon which award, proof could be a certificate, pocket certificate, blue card, photograph, newspaper article, ad nauseum. BUT no matter what award went out, an Advancement report was filled out for it, even the First Class Rank Pins that are allowed to be worn by all Scouts on campaign and expedition hats.

Actually upon reflection I realized this: how is anyone beyond the scout, the unit, and the MBC going to know if a blue cards was used or not? They are only used for record keeping purposes, and are not used at the BORs, turned into the council, or reviewed by national.

My advice if they are getting a new system: MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A PRINTOUT OF YOUR CURRENT SCOUTNET RECORDS ON HAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And I am shouting at the top of my lungs on this one ) I know you are suppose to get training cards, but some councils have not issued cards every time. Also I know between moves, I have sadly lost and misplaced some records, and other stuff. One reason why SCOUTNET was created in the late 1990s (1997 or thereabouts were the pilot councils, August 1998 mandatory for all council and national operations EXCEPT Supply) So that records will move with you as you move to different councils. Trust me that didn't happen, don't remember how many times I did YPT and have to come up with records.

Bnelon, I see where the new book now requires blue cards, thanks for the update. I am going to pass the word around at RT this week because we have many units using the worksheets from MacScouter.com. But in the past, it was not stated that blue cards were mandatory. Heck even the new book references that "it has not been clearly stated in the past" in regards to blue cards. I did a quick search of the old one, and there is only 2 mentions of the "Application for Merit Badge (blue card)," and that is pages 31 where it states that "partials are recorded on it," and page 50 in the appendix where it gives the item number to buy the cards from national. Again not trying to be a pain, but this is something that has occured several times in my area. IMHO, there are a variety of factors invovled, some unit based, others district/council based. Once again Thanks.