Eagle92

All, A few comments. 1) I do not believe money came into it. Believe it or not we have an SE who wants leaders trained,and have been told to do training, even if we lose money. Yep you hear me, our DE and Se said if we go over budget on trainging it's ok. Just need to minimize it. 2)While I think J2E is a better program than QU and CU since their is more program input, I do see the new, I'm sorry national but this is new, trained leader requirements as detriment. 3) When mandatory training comes, and units cannot get recharter until they met their mandatory training requirements, how is this going to affect recharters? Will units be denied rechartering b/c the leader hasn't found the time to redo basic training he did 5+ years ago? And if you do accept older training for rechartering, then why are you changing the standard for the Trained Strip and JtE? The last one is my concern. What are we going to do about rechartering?

Joe, Good question. From my understanding of the update,It appears that the"continuing education" course of Scouting, better know as Round Tables, is not working out as it is suppose to. Instead of trained leaders getting updates on new policies, procedures, and what not, either the leaders are not attending, or RTs are not workgin as they are suppose to work. So it appears that instead of fixing the RT problem they want to mandate everyone goign through basic training again.

Since I turned 18, except for when I turned to the dark side and was a pro , I have served as a volunteer on the unit and/or district level. I served while in college, I served when I didn't have kids in the program, I served while in grad school, and now I serve b/c my oldest is in Cubs. Why did I serve all this time all this time. 1) FUN. No lie I am addicted to Scouting. I enjoy being in the outdoors. I enjoy putting together programs that the scouts will have fun with. I enjoy working with and mentoring youth. Despite the pettiness of some adults, despite the politics that can arise, and especially despite national and their assinine rules like the ones that just came this week in regards to training, I enjoy Scouting. 2)Someone served as a leader and mentor to me when I was a scout, now it's payback. My dad was not the best one around. It was the adults in my troop that were my role models: Messrs Kenny, Mike, Tom, Doc J, and especially my SM, Mr. Joe. They were my father figures.They were the ones I looked up to. And if wasn't for them giving of their time, talents, and treasure, I honestly do not know where I would be at today. They set the example of service, and it is only right that I continue it. 3) Scouting has been good to me, now I need to be good to Scouting. As a youth and young adult, scouting gave me opportunities that most teens and young adults do not have. I've gone through leadership training that I use to this day, and amaze folks when I say I learned this as a scout. I've had the opportunity to meet folks from around the country and world at a national scout jamboree. I've had the opportunity to travel out of the country twice, first to go canoeing in Canada, the second as a participant in the European Camp Staff Program where I worked with scouts form all over the world. I feel that I need to provide some of the opportunities for the youth. 4) Camraderie. it really is true, no matter where you go, scouts are brothers. When overseas I was able on my days off to go kayaking with British Sea Scouts near the camp, or go to on tour with an English troop, or be invited to dinner with a Scottish troop. In the US, I've had leaders and former who have "done their good turn for the day" when I was in need. I've had them approach me in supermarkets and restaurants and talk about their time. I enjoy my friendships in scouting. And this was especially important when moving to new areas and not knowing anyone in the area. I admit my reasons now are a bit more selfish; I want my son to have fun and enjoy scouting as much as I have. But as my wife has pointed out on a few occasion (today was one of them) sometimes my son makes sacrifices because I am helping others. Anyway, the reasons above are why I stayed in scouting until I had a son old enough to join. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

back int he day I was taught there are 3 ways to conduct training. 1) Formal Classes, i.e. SM Specific class or an IOLS class. 2) Self Study, i.e. reading the material and taking a test. This is best seen with internet training now. 3) MENTORING (caps for emphasis),i.e. working with someone on a one to one basis. I remember taking the Explorer Leader Basic Training Self Study course to become a trained Explorer leader. Basically I was given the syllabus to read and learn. Instead of a written test, I had a "mentoring" session with the Exploring Executive to make sure I knew what I needed to know. Whoever thought of calling a "test out" a "mentoring session" is a genius. One thing that the national training committee did right with the update if you ask me.

Jrush, Please tell me you are joking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! BP, I may have blown this out of proportion, and I apologize. When I read the statement, I was blown away and very angry. I have do a lot for Scouting, and if I had to retake training it would be detrimental to the #1 purpose: program for the scouts. I keep up to date to the best of my ability. heck I find out things before the pros find out at times. IMHO any leader worth their salt will keep up with the latest news from national. Now whether they agree with it or not, or whether they think it will work with their unit, is a different story. Gotta remember I'm also on the district level, and I want units to get J2E. I also think some elements of it are better than the QU and CU programs it has replaced b/c it appears more program oriented. If a mod wants to close the thread, I have no problem.

Jrush, A little more than what looks right on a camping trip. It also insures that the adults are not a hindrance to the Scouts. Kinda sad when some adults cannot even set up a tent, and a patrol volunteers to help. Seen that 1 time.

Short, That is what is disturbing. It says tenured leaders once trained are always trained. BUT then contradicts itself.

Fish, Trust me council would love it if all events broke even form fees. But if we did that, some events would be beyond the reach of folks. Take BS summer camp as one example. I can tell you that the actual cost of a summer camp, i.e. year round maintence, cost of a ranger, getting staff, training staff, etc costs nowhere near what scouts pay. I'll give you an example. Camp Sea Gull in NC charges $959 for a week of resident camp. Camp Cheerio in NC is $875 per week. And Camp Hanes in NC charges from $579 - $719 per week, depending upon when you register and which camp program. Camp Boddie charges between $235 to $255, depending upon deadline, for their week long camp. Pamlico Sea base charges between $295 to $315,depending upon deadline, for their week long HA programs. The 9 day kayaking is higher, $310 - $350 depending upon deadline. And the SCUBA cert. is a flat $525. Also events do lose money. Again my 2010 CSDC lost approx $4. Yes it's not much, but I hadn't returned over $300 of supplies, it would have been a lot worse. Also the policy of this council is to keep training fees to a minimum so that folks will attend.I broke even when I did BALOO, but almost lost money due to folks not preregistering. I took a chance on photocopies. So surpluses from one event do help events that lose money.

All, HERE IS THE KEY POINT (caps for emphasis): Now, if BSA decided to make RT count as continuing training, and just brought up the individual changes here and there...then his example would work. ROUND TABLE IS SUPPOSE TO BE CONTINUING EDUCATION (again caps for emphasis) RT is where updates, and changes are suppose to be brought to folks attention. HECK if look at training codes, ROUNDTABLES HAS ITS OWN TRAINING CODES [bS RT is H06, CS RT is H14, sorry cannot find VS Huddle or Venturing RT ( or whatever it is now called) codes]. And thinking about it, I remember when I use to fill out a training report when I attended RTs back in the day. I think that is the problem, heck I know it's the problem. Someone at national thinks RTs are not being used. The training update even says that.

I too apologize. But I just found that funny. I'm one of those who should be wearing devices on my knots, 5 total on 3 knots. And I hate the things. I use to wear them once upon a time, but I've lost numerous ones, been stuck when backing came off, had problems getting to go through the shirt and the knot, and now the Sea Scout device is "restricted" and I have to order it through a council office (have no reason why it's restricted when the others are not).EDITED: So I was laughing at how much time I had wasted on those suckers. (end edit) But I when I was wearing those devices, I was wearing the shirt everyday working for supply. So I was very busy and active. Not sitting back, enjoying a cup of coffee, and asking scouts if they asked the PL. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Either they don't wash their clothes or they have too much time on their hands. ROTFLOL

Eng, You are correct in that parent do have a repsonibilty. They have a responsibility to keep their scouts safe AND review ALL leadership applications, including college age ones. EDITED: that's why you check references.(edit over) One of the best SMs I had the pleasure of knowing started off as an 18YO ASM moving out of the troop as an Eagle. At 20, he was the de facto SM, and at 21 he became the official, on the charter SM. After 20 years, he was still SM. EDITED: I have also found that GASers(Gray Area Scouters, i.e. 18-20 YOs who are adults for Boy Scouts, but youth for OA) tend to have better rapport, able to get even the most difficult and obstinate youth listen better, and influence the scouts better than us old fogeys.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Calico, I agree with you 100% While I was never denied a position, I remember being a 21yo OA chapter adviser, and being told I don't know what I'm doing, nor some folks taking me seriously. You are spot on.

And that is what I'm afraid of. Just when teh troop is finally getting the youth to lead on their own AND have enough adults to do things, it turns into Webelos III.

I'm glad that didn't happen to me. Not necessarily when I was in college, I stayed local, but after I quit being a DE, and moved to a new council while my wife was in grad school. 20 something with no kiods in the program, something must be up. Then again if they looked at the references provided, as well as previous scouting and adult leader experience listed, it should say something.

Resq, So you are in favor of having expereinced, and by national's new definition, previously trained leaders go through stuff all over again? Again I don't mind training, I'm in favor of it. But when you got folks who have been doing this 5,10, 30 years and keep current with new info via RTs, UoS, etc being told they are no longer trained I do have a problem. Now I've helped with training in the past, and will be talking to district committee about IOLS in the next few months. And yes national is encouraging folks who train to put their name on the rooster so they get credit for the new classes. But not everyone has the time to do that. And there are units that are struggling. Heck one troop I knew about lost an ASM, and couldn't go camping for about 2 months until the new scouts arrived and the new leaders could go camping.

Unfortunately the change of command was rather abrupt. When approached on Saturday, new SM said "NO," then on Wednesday it was annoucned he was the new SM. I know he did specifics at summer camp, but don't know about other parents who are stepping up. And they are former or current Cub parents. Good news is that the folks have camping experience. new SM is an Eagle, and he and 2 of the other new ASMs have BALOO. But they are use to car camping, with an emphasis on car. I have hokingly refered to his jeep as his backpack. Then again, I want his jeep . As for the old SM? he is continuing to be an ASM, but the OA is pulling him towards AIA, especially since his son is heavily involved with AIA. I admit I have not been that involved directly with the troop. I did train the SM, point a few like-minded, pro Patrol Method adults his way over the years, and camped once or twice with them. I see a lot of my old troop in that troop, and I don't want it to become an adult led unit like most of the others in my neck of the woods. One reason I visited their feeder pack first was b/c of the troop. Them, and the pack has a great program. Please keep the ideas coming.

Maybe national should revamp how Round Tables are conducted, as that is where new info is suppose to be relayed. If it is not happening there, and it sound as if that is the case, then ROUND TABLES are the problem.

FScouter, While you are correct, Bnelon is also correct in that it affects teh trained strip as well. In order to continue to wear it, you must meet the CURRENT requirements (caps for emphasis). As I see it, this will not only affect old timers like myself, but can also affect newer leaders who have not taken "This is Scouting," taking the older online intro course from 2 years ago(sorry forgot its name)instead. Also it could potentially affect our youth leaders. If Youth leaders in a troop hadn't taken ILST yet, taking the previous course, they are no longer "trained" and entitled to wear the strip. Nor would Venturers wear the trained strip who had taken VLST and not the new ILST. Grant you, the venturers with the old course can still wear the VLST strips. Good news is this, this is the same group that stated they would merge IOLS and WeLOT into one course, and have now changed their mind. I bet if a lot of scouters raised a stink, or if the JTE results are not there b/c of this requirement to have scouters redo basic training every time it changes to qualify, it may change. I can only hope.

Here's my challenge. Good friend of mine burnt out as SM. very understandable b/c he had has problems with getting enough leaders to help over the years. Troop is relatively new, about 5 years old, and is finally getting to the point where the older scouts are taking charge and doing things they want to do. Best example is that they decided not to attend camporee this year b/c it was a MB seminar. Very outdoor oriented, and do not push advancement. The New SM is the former CM of the pack, and some of the former CS parents have stepped up to the plate to be ASMs to help. That's Great, but something is worrying me and I cannot place it. I'm afraid the troop is going to turn into an adult led troop. What are some ideas, short of me joining the unit ( which I cannot at this time, hopefully in 2.1 years when oldest becomes a BS that will change ) what are some ideas to keep the leaders focused on boy led? I am encouraging them to get trained ASAP, and am even thinking of offering to teach an IOLS class to get them, and a few others trained. Also I know I keep talking about Boy Scouts being youth led to my Bears to get the parents use to hearing that NOW. And one of the new ASMs is also a bear parent in my den. Any other ideas?

I'm spinning off. more on the challenge in the spin off thread.

Forgot to add, on my budgets, we have a separate budget catagory for donations, so we know exactly how much the donations would have cost us. that way if we cannot get the donation the next year, we have an idea of how much to plan for.

Like I said it's been a while, but I remember 3 classes in the morning and 3 in the afternoon. The last two periods were when open swim, boating, and shooting sports occured. Now The freee sailing may have had a restriction that those in the sailing MB class have priority to get some extra practice, but I cannot remember for sure. SPL recommended taking 4 MBs max. That way we had time to do any paperwork, practice, work on projects, or take advantage of free time. Occasionally someone would get a 5th, but it was one that they started and completed, and had time to work on another one in the same period and it was usually a handicraft one. Rarely did we have someone earn six.

I didn't catch the "donations" that FScouter caught, But I agree 110% with him. All receipts, even if a donation, should be turned in becasue it does affect budgeting. I would also add do inventories of reusable supplies, i.e. rope, fire pans, etc. When I was day camp PD 2 years ago, I had no budget from previous years to work with. CD could not tell me what we had, what supplies she gets donated (other than the hay bales), inventories, etc. Ended up buying a lot of stuff to "be prepared" that I found out was not needed the day before camp started. Also found out stuff that was needed, and I did not know about or consider. Long story short: we went overbudget that year. This past summer, I used the budget from the previous year and was about $7 under budget. Would have been larger, and I would have gotten supplies for 2012, but the CD bought and used stuff prior camp starting, despite me telling her I have all the supplies already and copies of the PW she was printing.

Ok, I had an SM tell me that his troop decided not to go to a camporee that was turned into a MB weekend b/c "they have enough of merit badge classes at summer camp and want to have fun." or words to that effect. Has summer camp lost it's fun factor? It's been over 10 years since I served on a staff, and yes that was work, but it was FUN work But has summer camps lost their fun factor? Do the Scouts still look forward to getting away from their folks, being with their friends, and doing things that they don't normally do like canoeing, sailing, rifle and shotgun shooting, etc etc? Or has it turned into a big, week long "scout school?" Now I admit, I've said that Summer Camp is a great opportunity to work on MBs. It's a chance to live the patrol method for a week (ok you're not doing cooking for most units ) , you can take classes with your buddies,and have the time to work on things you may not haevthe chance to work on in the real world. But we always looked forward to the 2 hours of free time in the afternoon, depending upon if you chose to have MBs or other activities durign those slots, to have free shooting, swimming, and boating. We looked forward to the campwide games, inter-troop competitions, and campfires. Now I admit I only attended summer camp as a participant for 3 years: 12, 13, & 14. Those first two years were spent taking MB classes, but also having fun. I scheduled the last two periods off to have free swim, boating, and shooting. The third year I decided to do a HA program where I left base camp Monday after lunch and wasn't suppose to get back until Thursday lunch. So while I missed out on free boating, shooting, etc, I was having a different type of fun. So is there still a fun factor, or am I just an old fogey? And don't answer that last part, I know I'm old