Eagle92

in fact our troop won't even let the kids who eagled and aged out in our troop come back as leaders. I'm sorry to hear that Beardad. I think that is the absolute worst waste of a resource. You just spent up to 7 years training them, and then say adios. I do hope you encourage them and help them to find another unit to serve.

OUTSTANDING! (And yes the caps are for shouting )

If you want scouts to "master" skills, take them camping every month. Take them to district camporees that have competitive skills testing. Have patrol competitions. That's how they learn mastery. Darn tootin you're right. I'd also add having the older scouts teach the scouts.

Eng, Just make sure your SON forks up the money. It's not your or your wife's responsibility, although you may help out at fundraisers with him.

Moose, If you read one of the spin offs, the WHAT DO YOU BRING thread, you would know that I had a very capable friend screw up: He didn't tell anyone where he was going or when to expect him back. He just went on a day hike in the national forest he was working at that summer. He somehow ended up with a broken leg on a ledge and was out there for a week. Read that thread for the info. Anyway yes he endured some good-natured ribbing from his friends, yes he realized how boneheaded not telling folks about his trip was. And yes we all evaluated exactly what he did and didn't do. Pretty much the no telling folks was the mistake.

T2eagle, Yes we really do need more details before making a thorough judgement. Unfortunately in today's fast paced, news saturated world, what we are seeing and reading is not good for the BSA. Unfortunately in today's world, perception is reality, even if it should not be the case. While I saw the news article about the shelter, and that's ok, the challenge I have is this, how long did it take for them to make it and could the time be better spent doing something else? Also never heard about the morse code. If correct,that's cool. Also one article mentions a map and compass in their possession, and the one I saw didn't mention it. If they did have a map and compass, couldn't the time spent making a shelter be better spent figuring out where they are and getting out? Again a more thorough report needs to be done. Hopefully someone will debrief them,a nd we can learn form this lesson.

To all Marines, Devil Dogs, Leathernecks, whatever you want to be called: HAPPY 236TH BIRTHDAY! And thank you.

I didn't want to bring it up, but here it goes. the "One and Done" idea is not only detrimental, but will lead to more instances like this past weeekend in NH.

BROTEHRHOOD, It may be as this guy came aboard in December 2010. http://www.linkedin.com/in/tozzie Senior Director, Business Architecture and Performance at Dell Services (formerly Perot Systems Corp) VP, Product Management at SHPS, Inc. Director, Business Development and Strategic Planning at Fujitsu USA, Glovia International Architect, Digital Marketplace Systems at Perot Systems Corp., TimeZero Group Director of Operations & Advanced Applications at Nets, Inc Director, Production and Design at Nets, Inc. Product Manager, Integrated Systems Group at Aerotech, Inc. Product Manager 5200 Control System at Modicon, Motion Control Division Manager, Advanced Applications and Internal Training at Modicon, Motion Control Division Ron Tozzie's Summary Ron Tozzie has been a leader in startups, global technology, national service, and global consulting firms alike. He has always bridged technology and business strategies while leading Product Line Management in three distinct industries: Robotic Control Systems, Enterprise Commerce Systems, and Integrated Healthcare Mgt Systems. He has helped lead firms through high growth, tremendous change and large shifts in strategies. He specializes in business and IT strategy development and alignment, implementation, and change. He has worked on programs in at least 175 manufacturing facilities, in 12 countries. He holds an MBA in Finance from Carnegie-Mellon Universitys Tepper School, and an engineering degree. Specialties Business Strategy, Product Line Management, Performance Metrics, Business Diagnostics, Client Intimacy, Application Portfolio Rationalization, Application Architecture

It all depends. I use my old ALICE pack minus the frame. I do carry the ten essentials: knife, personal first aid kit, map and compass, knife, trail mix, light, poncho, etc. In addition I have my survival kit that I store in a M-14 magazine pouch. I also carry a weather radio. With the family I carry a lot more food and water, as well as some books or cards to keep the kids occupied. With the scouts, I usually carry a larger first aid kit. Depending upon how I'm feeling, and if I have space for it or not, I bring my stave. I know this is spun off the NH incident about and Eagle not being prepared. But I do want to tell you about another Eagle, one I know. This guy was the epitome of what the sterotypical Eagle should be. He loved the outdoors, taught at summer camp (I want to say camping and wilderness survival), and and knew his stuff. Anyway one summer he decided to work at one of the national parks. And on his day off he decided to hike on his own. You would think that's no problem, but he screwed up: he didn't tell folks where he was going or when to expect him back. So he goes on his hike, and something happens. I don't remember the particulars, but he ended up on a ledge with a broken leg and could not get out. No one knew where he was, and he was not reported as missing until he didn't show up to work 2 or 3 days after the incident. Somehow, again I dont' remember particulars, it was decided that he probably went hiking on his own, and a search was conducted. He was found on the 7th day. He did bring the essentials he learned as a Scout, and a few extras, in a day pack. While injured and hungry, he treated himself for first aid, had food that he was rationing out, and had supplies in his daypack to stay warm, get water, and purify it. He came out OK. I remember seeing him a year afterwards at summer camp with his troop. Yes I good naturedly ribbed him a little as he was a friend of mine from high school, but I listened to his first hand account and filed away that knowledge. And if memory serves, he talked breifly at the Wilderness Survival MB class that week about his expereince.

B, I must respectfully disagree. I have seen First Class Scouts, teach basic scout skills. Heck at one time you had to have First Aid MB in order to get First Class. And while the requirements for First Aid may have been updated due to changes in medical research, teaching the First Aid skills have been a part of the requirements since I earned FA MB back in the day(ok FA Skill Award was required for Second Class back in the day if memory serves, and I remember being told as a 2nd Class Scout to teach the skill award so that a Tenderfoot could earn it and get Second Class, and help me get to First Class). So historically BSA has expected Scouts to be able to teach T-2-1 skills that they have themselves have just learned. It was expected that skill be learned, and then reinforced by teaching the skills to younger scouts. And lets face it teaching skills reinforces the skill. One example I can give is that after 15+ years of not teaching lifeguarding, I was able to jump in, calm the victim, and get him to the side using the techniques that I was not only taught, but did teach until YMCA decided to no longer teach rescues without equipment. It was automatic responses from teaching those classes way back in the day. So yes, I do think it is a reasonable expectation of a Scout to teach those skills he has just learned. If we do not give our scouts the opportunity to learn these skills and teach them, we may end up with more 31 year old Eagle Scout leaders who get lost.

Bart, You would be surprised at the number of folks who are upset with the OA, and to be honest, not without just cause. I am a dancer, and got my start as a dancer b/c of the OA. But I do not dance at just OA events, nor have I learned form just OA dancers. So I have learned about some of the challenges. Sometimes OA dancers are very disrespectful, they think they know it all, and even have broken customs and traditions on the powwow circuit. I have had OA dancers, one such group surprised the heckout of me b/c they are supposedly one of the best lodges in the nation, remove blankets from benches that were not their own, sit on blankets that were not their own, and were rude and discourteous to folks in food lines during breaks in the dancing "becasue we're dancers!" when there were not only other dancers in line, but also judges. I have also seen where OA dancers have decided to do their own thing. Despite offers for help, despite being told by both the Native American community and the lodge, they decide they want to do their own thing, like making up their own dances and dance styles. It is embarrassing as an Arrowman and insulting to our powwow hosts. Another thing is that Native American Dance culture is alive and active. Some things worn in the early 2000s you may not see today, let alone somethign from the 1960s. But I see a lot of adults teaching and dancing Old Style and encouraging their Arrowman to do that style. But do you know howmany old style dancers I've seen besides Arrowman? 1 and he was an elder who after talking for a long time with him decided he was goign to wear his messy bustle and some of his Old Style regalia because our conversation brought back some great memories. Also our ceremonies and regalia worn are causes for concern. Our ceremonies come from a time when NA culture was forbidden, and they were not even considered citizens and allowed to vote. Thankfully overtime that has changed, but folks are not as knowledgable and respectful of that fact, nor our ceremonies. How many times have you seen folks forget lines, or worse, read them from a scroll, or even a podium? Also A lot of lodges, even ones with good AIA folks, have regalia that is really a carciture of what was actually worn. It's more 'Hollywood" Indian than actual regalia based upon actual research.

Eng, Yep the wife sends out messages from time to time and I get it. She's wonderful, she understands my addiction to Scouting, and as long as it is balanced, she if fine with it. It's when scouting begins to take over, as can happen, or things like holding my son back from a scout activity so that I do not appear to be letting him do everything and be the "leaders kid who doesn't let others do stuff" goes overboard. But I actually feel kinda bad for her at times. She lvoes the outdoors and has served as a leader with a crew while we were dating and first married, as well as a MC with a troop I was with. She's been asked to be a leader with a crew locally, and wanted to jump at it. But with 3 kids and her mom, it's rough. Hopefully as the kids grow up a little more. As for what happens if he decides scouting isn't for him? I'd probably do the right thing like you are with your step son: letting him do what he wants. Just as I imagine it is hard for you to understand Scouting, I know it's hard for me to understand sport at times. At the moment I've given him choices, and he has chosen scouts over karate.

EMB, I agree, the CSP, US Flag, shoudl still be on the working uniforms,as well as the WC and Bugs onother uniforms. But the national committee said no to all of that.

This past summer, I went camping with the family in the Appalachins of NC. We did various trails, stayed in a national forest, etc, etc. My wife thought I was going overboard carrying a daypack with the 10 Essentials and some other stuff "just in case" everywhere we went. Only used the food and water in the pack, but that was OK. Told wife about this article. She couldn't understand how that could happen to scouts, especially if they had a map and compass with them. I mentioned they may not have been prepared to stay over their alloted time. And that's when she brought up why i carry extra stuff that she thinks we don't need when we go on hikes and what not. Yes we do not know all the details of the situation. And yes the media does like to take things out of perspective. But from what is being presented, it does not look good for BSA. And I think form that we can all agree.

Calico, Can understand some of where you are coming from. I've been with "misplaced" youth before, and have been "misplaced" myself a time or two, especially when following the directions the wife is giving me (but that's a different story ). Anyway there ways to figure out where you are on a map if you have a compass. Simple triangulation does work. May not be as accurate as GPS, but it does work to give a location. Once that is found, then navigate to where the trail should be. Those where things I was taught to do, and have taught to scouts. I've also used those skills, especially at Vicksburg Military park. They have an outstanding, very challenging cross country hike. I admit I did not complete the trail the two times attempted (once was after a hurricane or tornado hit the area and caused some real damage that forced turning back as well as the park to close the trail until repairs could be made, another time after making it to where where the last monument, which were also markers for to shoot azimuths for the last leg, was stolen. How you can steal a monument without folks noticing is beyond me). And I agree trail markers are not always the greatest. While I personally like signs, I have used those faded painted spots on trees. But working as a team can solve that too.

Don't be so sure about being too old and crotchety. We have a 70+ YO SM, whose only consolation is a a cot when camping. Is your troop using the Troop Program features? It's a 3 volume set that outlines 36 months worth of program that a PLC can select to use.

I AM SO SAD AND EMBARRASSED, and I wasn't even there! You had a map and compass with you, and you didn't know how to use it. WOW

Sailing, RUB IT IN WHY DON'T YA That's ok, main reason why my last ship wouldn't get restarted is no longer around, so as Gandalf said, "There's always hope, a fool's hope." Gentle pushes and nudges are happening.

JoeBob STEP AWAY FROM THE PATROL CAMPSITE AND BACK TO THE ADULT CAMPSITE, IT'S YOUR TURN TO COOK (HOPEFULLY STEAKS)! Seriously, it's hard to step back, but you gotta do it, for your son's sake. He will get more out of the program, have more fun, etc, etc if you stay in the shadows. As for being a COR, go for it. You have an advantage on the district and council mostof us don't: a vote. As a COR you are part of both the district and council boards. You vote on things.

UC, I admit I'm one of those in a "piratical costume" with the CSP on my khakis, and usually wearing the blue pants of my old ship with the white shirt. But they are 'vintage" pre-2002 uniforms Yes a lot of looks and a lot of questions, even from folks who should know. I wore my khakis to a council meeting once, and the SE asked about it. I will say this, wearing the uniform, and pointing folks to the What Did You Do This Weekend Sea Scout promotions on youtube has sparked some interest. Heck oldest said he not only wants to be a Sea Scout, he wants QM, especially since I didn't get that far

Base, Part of the blame for volunteers paying to work does lie with UW. I remember a time when some, not all events, events in my council had the staff free. Usually it was training events that had food expenses like JLTC and IOLS that staff that didn't have to pay. Their cost was calculated into the event budget, as a way of saying thank you. But somewhere United Way chapters began to complain aboutthe practice. At least that was what I was told when I asked about it. I staffed one event for a week, and didn't pay a dime. But a few months later I staffed a weekend event, and had to pay.

Not so much the trained patch or J2E patches, although for a few I bet it is. Rather it is the feeling that for all the work they have done to get the training to provide a quality program for the scouts for all these years, they are now being told that it is for nothing if they want their unit to be recognized as a quality unit, or to be considered trained. For some it feels as if they have been slapped in the face by national. I hope I am not around when the PTC staffer in my district finds out about the update, 'cause I know what his reaction was when I told him that according to the district training report, he was not trained. Luckily he was in good company 'cause SCOUTNET did not have me listed as trained either, and I was training chair at the time I admit I was somewhat angry at this update. Grant you I'm involved somewhat with training, so some of the courses I will be teaching at some point in the future when I am asked and I can. So to a lesser degree I am not really affected. But I have a lot of friends who will be affected. I know of excellent units that I would recommend in a heartbeat to someone, but with this new requirement, they would not be recognized as excellent. And I have dealt with similar situation already.

Fish, I do understand what you are saying. Yes scouting is changing. But there is already a mechanism in place to keep leaders updated and trained to the latest info without going through basic training all over again. Round Tables are those continuing education courses. Also University of Scouting is another way of presenting changes. That's why you need to go to either a UoS or so many RTs to get your training awards. Also RTs do have training codes. Sorry don't have the time to look up UoS. You use the military example. But here's the deal though, when you join you either go through Basic Training, aka Boot Camp, or OCS if you go officer only one time. Once you receive that basic training, you never have to go through it again. Yes you receive advance training and keep up to date with that advanced training, but you never go through basic again. The BSA is now telling us that Although we completed basic training, we now have to redo it all over again. I'll now an example of now untrained leader. A WDL who did YP , Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, TCDL Specific, CSDL Specific, WDL Specific, and BALOO is now considered "Untrained" because he hasn't taken NLE's replacement: This Is Scouting.

Chao, Leadership tan is actually the old "working khakis" of the USN, although most but Dickies. And the khakis are for leaders and QMs. The old blue dungarees, i.e chambray shirts and jeans, are for the youth. As for why Sea Scout wear USN uniforms, it goes back ot the 1920s when CDR Keane USN (ret) became Sea Scout Director. BSA got approval to USN uniforms with modifications ( just like the original BSA uniforms were US Army Uniforms with modifications), and Sea Scouts continue that. At one time BSA did make the entire Sea Scout uniforms, but now limited what they sell, with most stuff coming from surplus or SHIPS STORES in CA. As to why it didn't go the way of Exploring, Sea Scouts is Traditional Scouting, and not career oriented like Exploring. As for big plans, every council, area, and regions is encouraged to do something special. The BIGGEST event is the KOCH CUP, with is a bi-annual regatta that brings Sea Scouts from all over the US, and world to race. WHere's sailing PJ when I need him