Eagle92

Fred, I did a little research on the topic by reviewing some of my BSHBs. There is a reason why old fogey's like myself and others uses words like "master skills," "show proficency," etc etc. And that is because those word WERE used in previous editions of the BSHB, and not just in the advancement literature for leaders. From the 9th ed, 12th printing, page 453 under the chapter entitled SCOUT ADVANCEMENT ...[bP beleived that]any boy who took the time and trouble to master (emphasis mine) certain Scoutcraft skills should be rewarded for his effort. And so he came up with this idea: He gave each scout who passed certain tests a badge to wear on his uniform. ...For all ranks , you are required to show active Scout participation in your troop and patrol.You are required to master (again emph. mine) certain Scout skills Either those exact same quotes, or very similar ones, are found under Chapter 27 ADVANCEMENT IN SCOUTING on page 589 of the 10th ed,7th printing. Now the 11th ed, 9th printing states on page 14 under THE RANKS OF SCOUTING Of greater value is what the badges represent. The skills you master (emphasis mine again), the wisdom you gain, and the experiences you enjoy.... So the expectation to master the skills was up front in the BSHB from the beginning. Older Scouts and adult leaders signing off didn't even need to express the expectation, except by their example, because it was already written in the BSHB. Unfortunately the current BSHB doesn't even have an advancement section as I can find. So I do agree with you, it needs to be put back in the BSHB. But until a new BSHB is out, leaders should continue with the expectation of a scout being able to do the skills required since it is in the additional materials, specifically the G2A, that we use. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

What age level? For Cubs, I'd try this: http://paulssupplies.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=422 $5 a pop, cheaper if you can use your COR's info for wholesale info. I do not have one, but I've used the company in the past and they are OK in my book. I am a repeat customer. Now if it is for Boy Scouts and Venturers, I love Silva. The 123 Starter reminds me of an old Polaris I had, and is more accurate than the Starter I had back in the day. http://store.silvacompass.com/products/345164/Starter_1-2-3 http://store.silvacompass.com/products/345165/Polaris_177 I still have both compasses, plus a vintage 1950s or 60s Polaris. My Starter I don't use anymore b/c it only does every 5 degrees. But it is usable still after 27 years. Polaris lasted about 20 years, and has a bubble in it now. I currently use the Hunter http://store.silvacompass.com/products/345163/Huntsman%20423?pid=9a740d1f23fc9b0d8c0f0c86847b3d48 Now it may be cheaper to buy this: http://store.silvacompass.com/products/345242/Compass_Carrying_Case_with_24_Polaris_compasses case and 24 Polaris compasses for 259.99, about $11/ compass. Also Campor and their unit discount may be able to help too. i saw these http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___60744 http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81191 http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___60745 http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___81216 Good luck

Another non-WBer, but did the old the BA22 and staffed JLT, so I hope I have some cred on this topic. Further I had to play a similar game in PDL-1, Ethical Controversies, which came from Exploring if memory serves. Again I hope this non WBer has a little cred on this topic. Part of the problem as I see it is that instead of unifying the group, these games can sometimes destroy the group if not handled properly. And yes there is a lot of training to doing that properly. Unfortunately from all these discussions, most staffer runnign the game do not have enough training and expereince to see when the game is causing more problems than it is suppose to make you think on. On another note, I think that what happened last weekend in NH is another reason to review WB as it is currently, and bring back the outdoor skills. Knowing folks who did the old WB, and based upon my own experiences with BA22 and JLT, i do not see someone with the training ending up int he situation that occurred.

Oak, But it IS (emphasis, not screaming at you) written GTA says: It is important thus, to remember that in the end, a badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much a reward for what he has done. emphasis is mine. And a very similar quote has been in use for a very long time in previous advancement books. Also as mentioned by a previous poster GTA states that teaching the skill is part of the learning process. 4.2.1.1 The Scout Learns He learns by doing, and as he learns, he grows in his ability to do his part as a member of the patrol and troop. As he develops knowledge and skill, he is asked to teach others; and in this way he learns and develops leadership. So not signing off on a requirement until after they have done "his part as a member of the patrol and troop," or has taught the skill are legitimate reasons, and not adding to requirements. Unfortunately the BSHB cannot have every single rule, tibit of info, etc in it. Otherwise the book would be to big to be practical. Trust me the "District Operations" book that DE's get is a 3" binder, and it doesn't everything in it, let alone the Field book and HB information. Also in reviewing the current BSHB to prep for IOLS, I've noticed that some basic, commonsense info from previous editions is no longer in it. Hopefully the info is in the various MBPs on the topic. So again the BSHB is not the end all be all. Ratherit is a tool for the boys to use. Remember our job as leaders is to train, guide, and mentor these young men and ladies in our charge. And we have additional information and training to help us in that goal. And that includes the G2A, G2SS, and other resources. That's why we as leaders have expectations bases upon these resources. We expect a scout to be proficient in a skill, because it is stated that the scout should be able to do the skill in order to wear the badge. That means we have to make sure that who ever is signing off on requirements knows that the scout must be proficient in a skill by being "able to do" the skills that are required. Now folks are correct in that retesting is allowed. And we all agree that it is as it should be. Section 8.0.0.0 has all the details on BORs. BORS are suppose to determine the quality of his experience, decide whether he is qualified to advance and, if so, encourage him to continue the quest for Eagle or the next Palm. pp44 . In a nutshell the rest says that while retesting is not allowed, asking questions about expereince is how you determine if they met the requirements The answers will reveal what he did for his rank. It can be determined, then, if this was what he was supposed to do. GTA pp 45. So even if the requirements are signed off, say by an overzealous PL, if the BOR determines that the requirement was not met, then they have no choice to deny the rank, counsel the scout, and write up their recommendation for him to meet the requirements as well as appeal the decision. Again I am not trying to be mean, add to requirements, etc. I am trying to follow policy. And I have seen first hand leaders try to add to requirements, bully scouts, etc. Remember I'm the one who had to confront a DAC at his EBOR when he asked "what if we told you that we think you did not meet the requirements?" And when I asked why was told, "because I didn't approve your project." had to remind him that the project was approved by one of his successors 4 year prior, the project went off as planned, and that all requirements were met when the project was completed 4 years prior, so I do not see a problem, and if there is I want to know who I would appeal this decision to. As you can see, I've been on both end of this conversation.

Actually if memory serves, only 4 months POR is needed for Star while a First Class Scout. Again the rule is adding to requirements, and appealable.

That's why I like everyone wearing "uniforms" even if it is only the same troop T-shirt.

Sexual abuse is more than a pet peeve with me, and you do not want to knwo how violent I would get to help a person in need. I've had friends sexually assaulted, and dated a girl who was raped, there are emotional scars. The physical violence done to them is nothing, again NOTHING, compared to the emotional and mental violence they caused on someone for their entire lives. In regards to scouters and "bragging," I know that no one ever brags about it, rather they just tell the truth about the situation. And yes I have seen the results of one molester at a camp who "fell down the three steps in front of the cabin," and have no problem with what the staff did. I also know the police had no problems either, 'cause off duty office was one of the staffers dealing with the situation. Don't know if child molesters in the UK are treated as scum by their fellow prisoners as in the USA, but It would not hurt me in the least if they were.

Base, 1) Sorry to hear about that as that is uncalled for. Yes my troop has asked folks to leave a campsites before, but it was in situations that the sites are reserved, and that has been at state parks, not in the back country. 2) "Scouters" and I use that term very loosely and hence the quotation marks, are not living up to the Law: they were not helpful, friendly, courteous, or kind. 3) WRITE SOMEONE ( emphasis) The only way that a corection can be made is if someone knows about it. I'll give you an example. Have one non-profit that no longer allows Scouts to do service projects. This was an abrupt change as they took all comers, and a lot of folks who needed a quick project before turning 18 would go to them. had to hear the reason 3rd hand: one Life Scout screwed up royally and was told to stop what he was doing and leave. He screwed it up so badly, that the organization had to hire a professional to fix the problem, using money they did not budget. If it wasn't for the fact that one of the board members is affiliated with scouts, no one would have known. We are trying to fix that problem.

KC, Not my specialty either, but one of the MDs whose specialty it is wanted me to get some articles on the topic of the brain fully being fully developed at 25. He read some of the articles I got him and said "BS." Don't remember exactly what he said, except the "BS" part, but it was something along the lines that the brain scan differently based upon the data it is collecting, and that while something is being learned, brain scans are different. So a 20 something in school brain scans are different from most older adults, but if you take a scan of a 40something student, the scna would be similar to a 20 something.

Ok it's been a while since I was with a troop. But I will tell you my experiences growing up. First off, youth signed off on the T-2-1 requirements. PLs, members of the Leadership Corps (what may equated to venture patrol today) which is where the expereince scouts servng as instructors, QM, scribe, etc were placed, ASPL, and SPL were the only youth allowed to sign off, and they made sure that you knew the material before signing. Almost forgot, 1 exception. SPL and SM would assign Second Class Scouts to teach First Aid skills to another scout(s) in order for you to complete that FA MB requirement, and get First Class ( FA MB was required for FC at the time). Again we didn't just sign them off once they did it. We made sure that they knew it, and seen them use it or practice it. Secondly, youth sat on BORs for T-2-1. Again this was allowed until 1989, and I think it was a mistake to take youth off those BORs. Why? because we did know who had their act together and who didn't. We knew who had scout spirit, and who didn't. We knew who the troublemakers, and ones who worked with their patrols. Third, we expected those who had the badge to have the skills, relying on them to perform, and teach the new scouts in the patrol. Further when things hit the fan, we expected you to react, not loligag around. Two examples: it was another scout who recognized that I had hypothermia, not one of the adults, and he and the others helped me out. The second example was the time we had scout with some bleeding, and automatically I took off my necker and used it as a bandage to stop the bleeding. While I was upset b/c I did lose my GBB signature on the necker when it was washed, I bet GBB would be proud that I was able to treat a hurry case though. Fourth, we had a troop that was not only adult run, but a MB mill. Let's just say that there was some animosity between the two troops. Yes they had a lot of eagles, and yes they won some local summer camp awards, but we knew who was in charge of their troop, and who was in charge of ours. Funny thing is, when they lost their SM, that troop folded within a year. When we lost ours, we kept on going. Now other troops that were like ours in that they were boy led, and had the youth signing off on advancement like us, well there was some good-natured competition, but there was a lot of respect and interaction between us. Heck we had a few joint camp outs, and we had members from going on HA trips with each other. As far as advancement motivation is concerend, the troop I was with didn't really focus on it. More concerned with camping and hiking. Except when someone was near 18 and needed a little extra push. SM might remind them that they may want to focus on Eagle, but he left it up to them, no pressure.

Sorry Fred, but you are wrong. A person does not sign off on something just because they do it one time. GTA even states that "a badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much a reward for what he has done." emphasis mine. You do not sign it off after they just learn it. You let them use the skill some and practice. you give them time for them to get comfortable with the skill before signing off. Then once it is signed off, THEN they need to keep using it and teach others.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Trainer, Now you and I both know that what your troop is doing in regards to POR is incorrect and is appealable for a BOR. Sorry ot hear that there are no other options for troops. Sometimes you have to adapt and overcome. Sometimes when folks through obstacles in your way, go right through them. Good luck.

Guess I better get the Blackbeard CSP my council did. Seriously, I would ask for a copy of that letter as I think someone is pulling your leg.

Bart, Please tell me you are joking about no more pirates?!?!?!?!?! We are in the middle of the "PIRATE NATION" (East Carolina University), the two scout reservations are on waterways that were the home of Blackbeard, and the Pamilico Sea Base has Jolly Roger sails on all of her boats, has several pirate flags hanging in the main building, and has incorporated skulls and crossbones in its ship's patch back in the day. Also we have incorporated Pirates into our CSDC themes, wish they woudl do so again this year since it's the Sea Scout Centennial, but oh well, I was outvoted. So Pirates are a big deal in these neck of the woods. You sabe me? Which NCS did you go to, and did you see the letter? I ask because a few years back there was a scouting urban legend about no camoflage on scout properties, and someone expanded it to no more military surplus gear either. No such letter could be found, although folks said it was internal, and as for military surplus gear, I know several camps I worked out would have a problem becasue they do use such gear.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Trainerlady, Mixed emotions on your son. While I am glad he was told to know stuff he should have learned in order to advance, I do think they should have stayed longer since he took the time to review the material after being told to do so. He should not have been asked to come back next week. Also I do not like SMCs, or BORs for that matter, to be interrogation sessions. The SMC should be a time to mentor and counsel the scout, and if needed point out any challenges he may be having. Also I am very upset with the way the troop operates. You are correct in that it is Webelos III. The youth should be teaching the skills. The youth, IMHO, should be the ones signing off on the T-2-1 requirements. One of the few good things to come out of Urban Scouting on 1972 was allowing scouts to sit on T-2-1 BORs, and in 1989 they did away with that, although some units continued with the old policy until informed at a later date. I think that was a mistake on national's part. Is it possible for you to look to a more patrol method oriented troop?

Chao, Air Scouts, at least in the BSA, have been gone for a while now. Well my pack has its regatta tomorrow, and the chair has asked me to wear my Sea Scout uniform. Now I got to redo some stickers since oldest stole my First Class Anchor for the sail.

What I'm saying is that there's a strong enough correlation between age and immaturity and poor judgement, that I can understand if a unit uses age as a consideration when deciding whether to accept or reject a unit leader application - especially if the GASer in question is personally unknown to them. Ok this is my opinion, and my opinion alone. I think the reason why there is currently "correlation between age and immaturity and poor judgement" is that many kids today do not have any sense of responsibility, they want things handed to them. I saw this while student teaching at the HS level, and I saw this when I taught at the college level. Heck I one college student tell me point blank that I "can't fail me 'cause my job is paying for me to go to school." I had a mix of adult learners in my class. From the 20 somethings trying to get a degree to get better jobs, to the 50 somethings who had tons of expereince in their field, but now were required to get the degree or lose their job. And the younger ones, the ones who had no responsibility, were the ones who demanded their grades, and complained when I wouldn't give them the A they wanted. I've met scouts who have had some responsibilities, both in scouting and outside. In regards to a unit selecting its own leaders, yes they have the right. BUT irregardless of who is applying they should be checking references. And if they don't want to check the references of someone due to age, I say it says more about the unit, than it does about the potential leader.

Fred, The quote A Boy Scout badge recognizes what a young man is able to do; it is not a reward for what he has done. is also on p23 of the 2009 printing of the ACPP. Now we all know the G2A replaces the ACPP. So here is what the G2A says It is important thus, to remember that in the end, a badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much a reward for what he has done. ( bold emphasis is mine) p 19 and A badge recognizes what a young man is able to do and how he has grown. It is not so much, a reward for what he has done. p 45. So if a Boy Scout is not proficient with doing something, I am not going sign off the requirements. Nor would I encourage any jr. leaders to sign off a requirement until the scout is proficient. An aside about these skills. Did you hear about the NASA astronaut who fixed a problem in orbit using the square lashing he learned as a scout? I believe the shuttle's arm broke, and he stated he could use a square lasing to fix it. NASA engineers then spent the next three days trying to figure out how they could fix it to the maximum benefit using equipment on the shuttle. The result: the engineers said that a square lashing would be the best thing to secure the problem with. Or how about the service member, I believe a Marine, who's sent overseas to Afghanistan, and the unit is having problems with the tents. Apparently several of the plastic pieces to adjust the guy lines broke. He fixes the problem by using the taunt-line hitch, and is then told to teach every member of his unit how to do that knot. Proficiency.

Fred, The standard in Cub Scout is for the Cub Scout to do their best. Beav is not doing anything but stating the rule. And yes Cub Scout leaders who move up DO have a hard time adjusting to Boy Scouts and the new standards. I've seen it when I was an ASM. Heck I was talking to two CS leaders today who could not understand how a SM could let his scouts be 300' away "unsupervised." I tried to tell them that the scouts need to do things on their own, letting older scouts help them out, and the adults are in the background for safety and guidance if needed. These two trained CS leaders could not comprehend that. "What about new scouts who just joined and don't have those skills?" Well you put them in a patrol with those scouts who do so that they teach him. 'But how do they show things to the adults to sign off?" Well In my troop and in others, PLs and older scouts signed off on the T-2-1 ranks, and adults signed off on S-L-e. "What if they don't know anybody in the troop?" That's what the meetings are for, as well as teaching skills. And sometimes the former CS leaders keep applying CS methods to the Boy Scout Program. Also in regard to ranks (b) In Boy Scouting, recognition is gained through leadership in the troop, attending and participating in its activities, living the ideals of Scouting, and proficiency in activities related to outdoor life, useful skills, (emphasis mine)and career exploration. p 75 G2A. I do not think "one and done," show proficiency.

""Whenever any question arises pertaining to the suitability of "young adults" to serve as Scouters, several "young adults" regularly pipe up listing out their qualifications." Didn't catch that, question is what is the problem with listing credentials? In the medical field, you use credentials. I see folks credentials on their badges everyday at work. In academia, you see folks credentials. When you apply for a job, they want a list of expereince and credentials. So what is the problem with a young adult leader doing the same. Heck I've seen a few young adults with more experience and training than older leaders. Heck my 14yo den chief had more outdoor experience than the WDL did, and that is why I lost him last year. So again what is the problem?

I pipe in on this conversation, even though I am now an old fogey with a son in the program, because I remember the challenges and obstacles GASers face. I do not like to see anyone abused or mistreated, and I have been abused and mistreated. I've had folks ignore me because I was "young." I've not only been told I do not know what I am doing, but had that screamed at me once, because I was 21, and the "adult" had been in scouting longer than I have. I've had people say I'm lying about my experience on the district level, serving as an OA chapter adviser at 21 and 22 years, when I was a pro b/c I just got out of college. But what was interesting was this: the people in the know, the people who helped train and mold me, the ones I look up to as mentors and role models, they had no doubts. Sure they helped me out when needed. Sure I had a few conversations that helped me become a better leader. So I had no problems within the troop. I had no problems with the training folks I worked with. I had few problems with the OA folks I worked closely with, unfortunately it was an Arrowman who screamed at me but he was a flap wearer and rarely saw him at events. So yes this thread hits home a little.

KC, But did you get the "Catch 22" in your statement? I think in any line of work or vocation, you get new folks who may have Knowledge, Skills, and Abilities (KSAs)to do something, but not enough expereince to apply it to a particular situation. And the only way to gain the expereince is to apply the KSAs in situations.That's where mentoring, coaching, whatever you call it comes in. I know for a fact I made mistakes when I was a brand new ASM. I had been ASPL for so long that I continued in that role to a degree instead of letting the scout run things. I was too involved. I had to get mentored by older, more experienced scouters, some of whom had expereince helping us Gray Area Scouters (GASers) make the transition from youth to adults. I know when I was a GASer, as well as a 21-25yo scouter, I was ticked off when folks based their opinions of me only due to my age. I was active in the OA on the executive committee and a Vigil when I became chapter adviser at 21, yet i had folks scream at me that I didn't know what I was doing in regards to the OA. When I moved to another council as a pro,I had folks question my expereince and KSAs in scouting. It wasn't until folks saw me working at an Ordeal, helping out with training, going camping, and one time even mentoring a Scout at a camporee, that I had folks say, OK he knows his stuff. As for all the stuff I did as a Scout and young leader, I still have folks amazed at what I did. I had a lot of fun, and gained a lot of expereince.

Sherm, You are correct in that, and if memory serves, that's the policy in the UK. Once you get age out over there, you look for another group to join. Can there be issues with a new adult and his buddies, absolutely. I had a few jokes pulled on me, and one challenging youth did have some issues. And if the young leader is having some challenges movin up into the role, and mentoring doesn't work. yes dismiss him. But I do suggest giving them a chance.

LV, #1 reason why BSA was looking for a new jambo site was DOD was sued, and essentially lost teh suit if memory serves. Hence AP Hill is no longer available. So BSA needed to find a new Jambo home. And instead of just using the area 1 time every 4 years, they decided to turn it into a HA base. Sad thing is the military looses too. Good friend of mine attended '89 Jambo, but with the Army. His unit used the set up as a training exercise for refugee operations.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Eng, And your point is? Seriously the purpose of the leader application si to find out about the leader, VET HIS REFERENCES, get his info to do a Criminal background check, etc, By basing judgements only on age you lose out. What about the 18 yo life guard, ot for that matter teh 16 and 17 y.o certified lifeguards, who saves lives? What about the 18YO life guard instructor who trains and certifies people to become lifeguards? What about the 19 yo EMT? What about the 18 YO soldier, Marine, sailor, airman, or guardsman defending our country? What about the 20 yo RN who is taking care of you or a family member in teh hospital? Shall I go on? Age should not be a factor. Their knowledge, skills, and abilities are what need to be the factor. I'd rather have a 18 yo with the outdoor KSAs, heck I'd take my 14 yo former Den Chief, as a leader of a group of scouts in the outdoors, than some adults I know because the adults lack those skills. IMHO, one of the disadvantages with sports compared to Scouting is that adults tell the kids what to do all the time in sports. Kids do not have the chance to take initiative or lead like they do in Scouting.