Eagle92

Isn't that program called Venturing Seriously though, I don't know. Advancement has been with us since BP started the program in 1907. While some problems might be solved with no advancement, NO MORE FCFY and debates on "One and Done vs A scout mastering a skill, YEAH!!!!! . I think we may end up like Girl Scouts, and start dying off. Let's face it, folks like to be recognized for their achievement. It's human nature to want to learn something or do something and be recognized. Scouting allows that. One problem I've seen with teenagers and college students today is that they expect things to be handed to them. And unfortunately that is starting to creep into scouting as some of the discussions are showing. And that is a problem.

In regards to national's search engine, as a professional librarian who is trained to do research I can tell you it is horrible, stressing HORRIBLE. I have found it easier to use whatever term I am looking for and "and scouting.org" to find the info I want than to use the BSA's search engine. It is that bad. In regards to Rick's troop, I quote the 9th Doctor RUN FOR YOUR LIVES That is not how a troop is suppose to be run, and I am amazed you still have any new scouts still.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Fred, With no disrespect intended, what's your history in Scouting? I know you've been a den leader in Cub Scouts, and are involved in rebuilding a troop now, but were you a scout as a youth? Have you had family that were in scouts? I ask becasue the comments you've been making appear that you've have not been involved in Scouting a long time as a whole, and are relatively new to the Boy Scout program. See I was a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Sea Scout, ASM, AA, OA chapter adviser, ad nauseum. Also I was a DE for awhile, so I've been around as you can see. Also I've had family members involved in scouting. One uncle was an Eagle and Silver Award recipient, a cousin was Eagle, and my older brothers were in Scouts for a spell. In addition to going through the program, I've also attended a bunch of training too, SM Fundamentals, Explorer Basic, CS Leader Basic, National Leaders Training(aka All Hands) Conference. And I have staffed a bunch of training too. In fact I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm about to get asked to be district training chair again. Reason why I mention this is to give you an understanding of my background, and help let you know where I am coming from and how Boy Scouts is suppose to be. As I mentioned elsewhere, not all the info is in the BSHB. You got to use all of your sources in conducting a program, and that does include stuff not readily available to the youth. Now you say that boys advance at their own pace using explicit requirements and that an SM doesn't need to tell them when they are ready to advance. That's partially true. Yes the requirements are in the BSHB. But so has some form of the phrase "master the skills" in regards to scoutcraft and rank requirements since at least 1927's 3rd editions BSHB ( p98 Many of your Second Class skills can be mastered on actual outdoor hikes and then demonstrated (emphasis mine)in your Second Class Adventure ) So the expectation of mastery of scout craft skills has explicitly told to scouts up until the current edition. Also since the founding of the BSA, someone with experience and training certifies that the scout knows the skills. 1st ed BSHB states scouts pass tests to show that skills have been learned. For example, To earn Second Class a tenderfoot (sic) must pass, to the satisfaction of the recognized local scout authorities.... pp 17. The 3rd ed BSHP states that you must ask your ...Scoutmaster just what is the way to meet these requirements.... p 98. It also states ...tests are given by the Scoutmaster of the Troop in all communities....This does not releive the Troop Committee or teh Local Council of the responsibility of maintaining standards in all requirements p 10. That book also states that advancement must follow "strict adheance to the standards as set forth in the official publications of the Boy Scouts of America (emphasis mine) pp105. So since at least 1927, BSA has recognized that units and councils are responsible for adhering to standards in BSA publications, such as the G2A. So since 1927, BSA acknowledges that the BSHB does not contain all the answers to advancement. That is where leaders who go through training, read BSA publications like G2A, and set the expectations for the boys to meet the requirements. As for the swims test and requirements, remember the term "mastery" has been used as the expectation in the BSHB. To paraphrase the G2A, the rank represents what the Scout is able to do, not a reward for what he has done. And I have met scouts, heck I was one, who passed the swim test by the skin of their teeth, but if asked to do it again may have some trouble. Because it was expected for me to "master" the swim test, or in today's terms do the swim test proficiently, there was no way I would ask for a sign off after doing it one time. It was only after I was comfortable doign the test did I ask for sign off. As for the hike, you are correct in that there is more to safe hiking than map, compass, and a few rules. And the expectation has been that the scout knows everything that is involved in a safe hike. Since the 1st ed. BSHB, details on hiking have been given, and it was expected that they be applied in their hike. And the expectation that the scout can do it without adults has been around since the 1927 3rd edition. In fact one of the First Class requirements at the time was the following Make a round trip alone(or with another Scout) (emphasis mine) to a point at least seven limes away ( fourteen miles in all), going on foot, or rowing a boat,and write a satisfactory account of trip and things observed and page 225 states Not more than two boys may make this hike together. In the 1965 7th edition BSHB you have the following Second Class requirement in regards to hiking: 2(a) Take three hikes, each on a different day, of not less than 5 miles each with your troop, your patrol, an adult, or another Scout ( all emphasis mine) who is at least Second class (b)Before each hike submit a hike plan for approval.... Now one thing to remember up until the 2011 G2SS, Scouts were allowed, with the permission of the SM, to go camping on their own WITHOUT ADULTS. Don't believe, just look up that thread. Even today, according to the G2SS patrols can do things without adults, except overnite activities, with the permission of SM and parents (p 16) So when patrols hiked and camp back then, they probably did it without adults around. So again the expectation has been that the scout has mastered specific skills, and can use them with out adults around. To use today's terms, scouts have the ability to do the skills, and can do one day activities on their own, based upon official BSA publications like the G2A and G2SS. So being able to do thing without adults is implied and expected by the BSA Beavah's analogy is actually spot on ( why didn't I think of it ) Just look at the historic literature to see that. Today's standards have been built up on the ones in the past. I actually disagree. I think the "one and Done" attitude comes from several areas. A) is national's emphasis on FCFY since 1989. Leaders with little to no scouting background see that, and feel pressured to meet up to that program. B) Well meaning CS leaders still cannot get out of the CS mode of having scouts "do your best" to achieve rank. Again CS's have different standards b/c the CS program is designed for scouts to learn and do new things, not master specific skills. I have seen many a CS l;eader move up to BS and continue the CS model, and I pray that it doesn't happen to me when all 34 of my boys finally become BSs. Now I agree with you that the boys should be doing the teaching and signing off. BUT have they been coached, trained, mentored, whatever you want to call it, to do it right> have the expectations that they are expected to not only learn the skill now, but be able to do it whenever needed relayed to them? Signing off is a big responsibility for a new PL, I remember how nervous I was b/c my name was going in the HB, and I wanted to make sure that I did my job of teaching them and keeping the expectation. BUT what is a SM suppose to do if a Scout cannot do the skills that he is suppose to be abel to do? What if a SM see's that Tommy Tenderfoot is having problems using an ax when he passes the axe yard?, and Tommy wants a SMC that nite for Second Class? What if something happens on a trip, and a scout gets a sprained ankle, and Sammy Secondclass has no idea of what to do despite having the requirement signed off, and then wants an SMC for First Class at the next meeting? yes the SM can advise the Scout that he thinks some work is in order still and advise the scout to keep working on the skills before going to a BOR. BUT as we know if the scout wants a BOR, he gets one. Now whether the BOR agrees with the Scout or the SM is a different matter, But I hope that a socut would listen to the SM and wait. May I make a recommendation? If you haven't already, watch Follow Me Boys. Yep it's fiction, but I think the scene where Whitey is on the hike with his patrol and makes the rescue is the best example of what a First class scout should be able to do, back then and today, and all without an adult being present.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

In regards to the original question, I quote the late William Hilcourt: "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." "Scouting is outing." Nuff said.

I wonder if the boys themselves ever think about any of these issues at all. One reason why I want scouts to signoff on T-2-1 requirements, especially if they have been trained, know the importance of signing off, and expect the skills to be mastered liek the old BSHB says, or expect the scout to be able to do the skills. i've found boys are harder at times than the adults and expect more. In regards to 30 requirements in a single weekend campout: HORSE HOCKEY. Scouts need to MASTER THE SKILLS and a single weekend won't cover it. That has been the expectation as posted int he BSHB up until this last edition. It needs to be the expectation still, and IMHO a scout being able to do the skill per the G2A is mastering it. Now some scouts getting eagle at 13, I have no problem with as they have mastered the skills. My cousin was one of those. And I have met an occasional one besides him. But I've meet a bunch that I wouldn't trust with my life in the outdoors. FCFY needs a double tap to the head. IMHO it's b/c of FCFY that we get idiotic statements about 30 requirements in a weekend. It's b/c of FCFY that we have adults focusing their units on advancement only, and not letting the scouts grow at their own pace, really learn the skills, let teh kids lead no matter how much of a Chinese firedrill it will be, and most importantly HAVE FUN.

Irsap, I can't explain how you know when a scout really understands teh skill, can do the skill, and ready for sign off. Closest I can come to describe it is to use the comparison of an objective test versus subjective test. An objective test wants just the facts, i.e. True/false, Multiple Choice, Fill In the Blank, etc. It's learning and testing, but not necessarily mastering the content as was described int he older BSHBs. Whereas a subjective test, i.e. short answer essay, essay, thesis, etc, allows the individual to not only answer the questions, make connections to other areas, and expand into some detail what he knows. It allows for the individual to show what exactly they know and can do. that's why I like scouts to practice on their own after learning the skill, and use the skill a bit before sign off. If they are having problems, of course help them out, coach them and encourage them. I see "one and done" as an objective test, it's only good for the short term, not the long term. Whereas getting the scout to truly be able to do the skill is like the subjective test, allowing greater knowledge and better understanding in the long term. In thinking back to all the times I've taught scout craft, as well as working with my cubs ( remember cubs do have a much different standard), some of the signs I look for not only include being able to do the skills, but such subtle signs as confidence while doing it, comfortableness of doing it, and when first learning a new skill, the light bulb that "Oh yeah I got it now." Sometimes the sign off may be at after the monthly camp out where they used the skill throughout the weekend. It might be at after a second month's camp out. Or might be the next week, when the scout uses some of the first aid you taught him the week prior in a real life situation, and responds automatically without realizing that someone is behind him watching him. One of the guys I taught the FA Skill Award to did just that. But as we all agree on, we got to have a program that puts the 'outing into Scouting,' and allows these scouts to no only learn and use the skills, but teach them as well. On a personal note, sometimes we read more into these conversations than is really there based upon what's going on in our neck of the woods. It seems as if Fred may have a challenge with a leader who allows folks to sign off on requirements, but then retests them before signing off on the SMC and getting them to a BOR. (please correct me if I'm wrong). While it's good for a SM to catch any problems before the BOR, an SMC is not a retest session. In my neck of the woods, we have a troop that is adult driven and advancement oriented. Leaders want everything they do to have some advancement goal to it. Heck I was talking about our wonderful HA base and it's program for older scouts and ventureers, www.pamlicoseabase.org , and I was asked what MBs do they earn for the week. I've had some dealing with scouts from them, and with the exception of 3, they seem to be pencil whipped ranks. And they have an outdoor program, but for whatever reason the basics are not really emphasized. And once their scouts get Eagle they usually leave. Again there are exceptions: 2 of the 3 exceptions I mentioned Eagled and remained until college. 3rd is Life, working on Eagle, and plans to stay. But all three are/were active in the OA, and one works on summer camp staff. So maybe I should say an active outdoor program that the scouts are in charge of is needed

Fred, Back up one, did you say that the SM doesn't trust those he approved to sign off requirements to verify that the scout actually have the skills ?!?!?!?!?!? Ok I think I understand where you are coming from now, and if the above is the case, why we have been going round after round on this topic, when we both agree on those side discussions, which essentially would negate the entire topic IMHO. Signing off on requirements is a BIG deal, as it should be. Those who sign off need to be trained, counseled, and coached into whole entire process works, both youth and adults. Expectations need to be very clear. As you pointed out "mastering skills" is no longer in the current BSHB like it has been in previous ones, so it is incumbent that the SM uses his resources such as the GTA to relay what is expected. Also those signing off should know the 4 steps. As Green Bar Bill wrote: "train 'em, trust 'em, and let 'em lead". let them do the signing off and do not go back behind them. Yes sure make sure those signing off are doign the job properly, that's done via the SMC, and if needed remediate both the signer and the signee.

Base, Maybe I hung out with too many pre-WB21C WBers, but the stuff I heard and saw them do for their tickets usually went beyond what they would normally do with their units. My understanding, stress understanding, was that the ticket not only applied what you learned, but also took you out of the comfort zone so to speak, and do some new things. Now I admit I haven't done everything in scouting, I got 3 excuses to go to one of the HA bases like Philmont, N Tier, or FL, but I am doing alot already in scouting, applying what I have learned through the years, and honestly don't see how I could fit in ticket items, let alone WB.

Besides the fact that we would have alot of grumpy people if we said training didn't count (especially when IOLS changes in the near future).. WWWWWEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLL NOW THAT YOU MENTION IT Try telling long time, experienced leaders that according to the council records, they are untrained, especially the three beaders and the PTC staffer Luckily they were in good company as I was aslo listed as untrained, and I was the training chair. When I commented on the lastest Training Update at RT, I had a lot of folks ticked off, to the point some said they would quit if this was how BSA was going to treat them after they have spent all the time, energy, and money to get trained in order to provide a good program. They were insulted and disgusted. Luckily national is backing down some.

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Fred, You're right, someone that has expertise does conduct the swim test. Once upon a time, I was one of them too. And I knew who the weak swimmers were, despite passing the swim test, and encouraged to work on their abilities. As I mentioned, up to 2009 when the current BSHB came out, scouts were expected to master skills per the BSHB of their period. Passing the swim test one time may not be mastery of the skill depending upon the scout. Again MASTERY OF THE SKILL (caps for emphasis) was the expectation not only of me as a PL, ASPL, or ASM, but also of the Boy Scouts of America Handbook up until 2009. Today the G2A says that they must be able to do the skill. In fact the GTA doesn't even say do the skill one time and get the badge, rather the badge represents what he is able to do. To me that is a clear statement against "one and done." Now as to why I would not change the tag. 1) It is a sense of achievement to pass that test, and encourages the scout to master the skill of swimming, per BSHBs pre 2009, or to use the 2011 GTA wording, encourages the scout to be able to do the skill, in this case swimming. I was one those who did not pass the swim test the first go around, instead having to take instructional. Was I able to pass the swim test by mid week, yes. Did I master swimming by passing the test, no. Did I continue working on that skill the rest of the week, even after passing the swim test, darn tootin I did. 2)Peers are sometimes the best motivators and teachers, and by having someone work with him in the swimmers area may help him gain proficiency. Yes my friends helped me out. Did I limit myself to the shallower areas of the swimmers area in the lake, yes when I was tired. But I was encouraged to practice, gain endurance, and become proficient because of my friends. 3) As you noted, trained personnel are around the aquatics area, and using BSA rules and regs, a BSA aquatics area has more certified folks, and a more secure area than public pools. HECK in some instance the folks working on Lifesaving MB are better trained and prepared than certified lifeguards from ARC and YMCA. As a former YMCA Lifeguard Instructor, I was extemely disappointed when YMCA followed ARC in doing away with nonequipment rescues. Unfortunately BSA Lifeguard is now ARC with BSA terminology and also no longer works on nonequipment rescues. Fortunately Lifesaving MB does require them still. So I feel more comfortable in a BSA setting than a public pool. Now to the side discussions As for unsigning something signed off, who said anything about that? I agree with you, you find out who signed it and mentor them on how it's suppose to be, in this case according to the GTA and the scout being able to do the requirement, not just one one time and be recognized. As for the scout in question, yes you work with him so that he can do the skill. part of the learning process, according to the GTA,is being able to teach the skill to others. I've found that those who are a little week in a skill will work extra hard when they are tasked to teach the skill. As for programming and ensuring the scouts have the skills, once upon a time you didn't need to worry about that. If they had the badge, you expected them to have the KSAs to go with it. But you still practiced those skills with the group. You through in unexpected scenarios, not only to keep them on their toes and make it more fun and challenging, but also so that they can be prepared in case something happens. As for scouts signing off on T-2-1, yes once it's signed off, it is done. HOWEVER you need to counsel, mentor, and train your scouts on expectations and what it means to have the skill signed off, i.e. the scout is really able to do the skill and not just "one and done." If you find problems with a particular scout just signing off and not ensuring that that those he teaches can really do it, you may need to counsel and mentor him again, or worse, take his ability to sign off requirements away. But more importantly you need to work with the scouts signed off to insure that they truly know the skills and can do it. Again a badge represents what a scout is able to do, and is not a reward for what he has done.

What Short said. 9/10 times if you tell the council folks you will pay your own way, they approve ya.

MIB, You'd be surprised how oftern some folks change. I changed councils 5 times in 7 years. At one point I was registered in 2 different districts as a leader (Explorer post was AA for was in 1 district, the troop in another). And I'm in a council with 2 major military bases in their jurisdiction, and additional ones in adjacnet councils, one base is less that 15 minutes fromteh council boundary. As for how you are doing your live classes, you are spot on!

Jay, I hear ya about program. Yes if you have an active program, "advancement comes as naturally as a suntan, somethingthat happens when in the outdoors" as BP once said. Problem is you do have units with little to no outdoor program. 4 campouts and summer camp for JTE?!?!?!?!?!?! Also some folks have become so focused on FCFY, that they forget everythign else. "One and done" I believe is the term some use.

KC, Round Tables are the 'contining ed" or "continual training" that us old fogey are suppose to use to keep up to snuff. CSRT and BSRT even have their own training codes for SCOUTNET. However RTs seem to tbe the problem. Moose, if ya on FB, check out the BSA Training Team group. You are correct in that the folks in Irving are listening to some of us old fogeys, and are now allowing district folks to say if older training should coutn or not. I see issues with the new policy b/c a scouter may be considered trained with the odl courses in one district, but if he moves to another district, possibly in the same council, he will be considered untrained.

When FCFY came out in 1989, the rationale behind it was that research showed that those scouts who achieved FC within 1 year of becoming a Boy Scout tended to remain in scouting. If memory serves, no mention of troop program, or recognizing youth for that matter, was mentioned in the literature at that time. It focused soley on retaining membership. I'll try and do some research when I get home on this matter, and try to get the 1989 info if possible. Also I think, you all know how old age affects us, that over the years FCFY shifted somewhat from retaining members, to creating Eagles. To be honest I tried to to avoid FCFY stuff because I have seen it in action and do not believe it works. At least if you are tryign to develop folks physically, mentally, and morally. Now if I can find the info disk, FCFY was a session, and my computer can read it, I'll post info on FCFY that I got from the All Hands conference. Every info presentation there had an abstract listed on CD. I beleive FCFY was oneof the classes, but you know my opinion of FCFY, and I didn't attend it. I was more interested in the Venturing sessions. SP, Unfortunately that Cub Scouter's attitude is also the attitude of some Boy Scouters. Unfortunately I think the old school scouters are slowly getting outnumbered.

Base, GOOD FOR YOU!!!!! (and I am screaming at ya, but in a nice way, heck i'd slap you on the back and shake ya hand if i was there, esp. withthe challenges ya faced) Just make sure you document every time you try and contact your TC. And I wouldn't wait to long before the deadline to contact the CD or the staff advisor if the TC keeps putting you off.

Yes, belay that, HECK YEAH DO AWAY WITH FCFY And yes that is me screaming at the top of my lungs. Can't you tell I just luv FCFY I thought it was stupid when it first came out in 1989, and continue to find it stupid. The goal of the BSA is to grow our charges physically, mentally, and morally, not give out badges. I've seen leaders who beleive "one and done," and the kids are hopeless in the outdoors. I've seen candidates for the OA who cannot pack a backpack properly. I've read about an Eagle who gets lost. Shall I go on. Put the "Outing in Scouting," focus on skills development, adventure, and keep the youth in charge. Create a program, and they will come. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

Joebob, Several problems IMHO with advancement today. 1)FCFY. There is such a strong emphasis on getting FC within a year that getting the rank become the end-all, be-all. Scouts and leader forget what has been written in previous editions of teh BSHB, and for leaders, in the ACPP and current C2A, which have used such words as "master the skills" and "the badge represents what the scout is able to do, not what he has done." or words to that effect. Hence we get the entire "One and Done" debate. 2)Time requirements for T-2-1 removal. I think that national's removal of time requirements, in an effort to get more people to FC in a year, hurts because it again focuses on rank advancement and not having a scout truly learn and be proficient in the skills (GTA describes learnign as being able to do and being abel to teach the skills). I reveiwed some of my old BSHBs. In the 1960s, the time requirements between T and 2 were a month, and between 2 and 1 was two months, so it was possible, stess possible, to be FC in 3 months. I do not know about 1972 ed of the BSHB, but in the 9th edition, if you hit all the BORs exactly on time, to go from Scout to First Class took a minimum of 6 months. But you had 2 months between Scout and Tenderfoot to master the skill awards needed for the rank. You had the 2 months between Tenderfoor and Second Class to master the skill awards needed for that rank. And you had the 2 months to not only master the skill awards needed for that rank, but also get First Aid MB, which required you to teach the First Aid Skill Award. The time requirements emphasized learning by giving you time to grow. 3) Focus on Leadership. Yes Scouts should be leaders. But the leadership skills and abilities can be taught and learned via the patrol method. IMHO too much leadership and not enough outdoor skills. 4) Program. I was amazed, belay that, SHOCKED to find out that for the J2E program a troop needs to only do summer camp and 4 campouts a year. As BP has stated, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING" (would the editors of the current BSHB do the math and correct their incorrect quotation), and "Scouting IS outing." best way to keep scouts involved, even if they do not seek Eagle, is to have an active program that challenges them.

Wilton, To answer your question about national staff and their accommodations, I cannot say where the CSE and national key three, or other sr management folks, will stay. But I do know a number of national executive staff do stay in the same accommodations as everyone else: military GP tent, cot and foot locker. My old boss staffed her first jambo in 2001, and got a dose of what I dealt with at summer camp for 2 months.

Lisa, Please, please, PLEASE do not push your son. It will come back to bite you in the butt in my expereince. My recommendations is the following: have one of the older scouts, or leaders that your son is comfortable with to discuss the situation with him. No pushing, just a chat. But I will say this, compare to some eagles I have met and read about, I'd rather have some adults who only Star and Life with me in the boonies than them.

E, AMEN! again PROGRAM PROGRAM PROGRAM Rat said The scouts' ability to learn and achieve high standards isn't the problem. The adults often set the bar low, and the program goes from there. That's one reason why I like Scouts signing off on the T-2-1 ranks, as well as them sitting on BORs at that level too like they did in the 1972-1989 range.

"Dad, You stole my thunder in this thread.

IMHO, Allow him to keep his tag at camp yes. Best way to practice is to do it. Plus with the swim buddy and LGs around, I'm more comfortable than at public pools. As for signing off the requirement in the book, not right away. I would want him to practice and keep workign on it and improving. Upon reflection, I think another reason for the 'One and Done" mentality is national's emphasis on FCFY and the doing away with time requirements at the T-2-1 level. back in the day, a scout had the time to "master" the skill per the BSHB. There was no hurry. And yes I know about the research that supports FCFY, and I'm willing to bet the real reason for A) keeping the interest of the scouts, and B) Them advancing in the 12 month period, was because of PROGRAM. Develop a PROGRAM and they will come.

Only time rank was really emphasized in my troop growing up was for certain leadership positions, and usually the PORs had the an additional requirement of being a PL for a minimum of 6 months. In my old troop, you had to be First Class or higher and served as a PL for 6 months to be eligible for election for SPL. ASPL had to have the same rank and expereince Also to be a member of the Leadership Corps, which was your older scouts, you had to be at least First Class, been a PL, and, voted into the LC by the current members. Ok it wasn't a technical vote, more like the current members agree that a FC scout had the KSAs to join and have troop level responsibilities. But honestly we had folks coming to meeting and doing stuff who had no interest in getting eagle. They just wanted to have fun.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)