Eagle92

JM, Problem is that the advance outdoor leader skills course use to be WB. WB was a week long, and you lived the PM 24/7. You worked on outdoor skills in addition to leadership skills.

Folks, Thank you one and all. I think she has the maturity to handle it without another female present. But I wanted to make sure about YPT/VYPT One thing I did not mention, as I did not want it to influence the discussion, is that I am trying to get her dad to staff the course.

83, As others said, do what you can with the unit you are with. It makes a difference, trust me. One thing we have in our favor is what I call the "multiplication effect." You do your best as a leader to make a difference in the lives of your scouts. And while they age out, go away to college, etc, they will remember what you did for them. And when their time comes to step up to the plate, they are going to do their best to follow your example. Don't believe, well I got two dads in my den who were scouts, one getting Eagle, the other Medal of Merit for saving someone's life. Both have stories of their time in scouts, one is my ADL and is trying to do things like he did them, and the other cannot wait for his son to be a Boy Scout so that he can find a troop like his own growing up. While not a CS leader, he is on the district committee. I have a friend from my old troop whose son is Wolf age now. Guess who is a DL. Guess which troop is the pack is affiliated with, and he cannot wait for son to join it? See what I mean. And even outside of scouting, the guys I knew are makign a difference and living up to the ideals of scouting. They are businessmen, Marines and airman, they are volunteers. I think my old SM Mr. Joe would be proud.

Mom, There is a process for scouts with disabilities that can be applied WITH THE COUNCIL'S APPROVAL prior to beginning on the badges.

But the training is also for Venturing leaders, that is why I have the concern.

MD, FCFY came about when Exploring was mostly career interest oriented, and hadn't split into Venturing for traditional posts, and Exploring under LFL fro the career oreinted posts. It was strictly a tool to get folks to stay in the movement. As far as Venturing upping the age, I do not think it will happen since they just lowered the age to 13.5 and completed 8th grade.

I'm posting this question in Venturing and not training since I feel more folks in this forum probably have dealt with this here.Here it is: Suppose you have an 18 year old female GASer (that a local term for Gray Area Scouter, i.e. the 18-20yo group) who is an ASM with a troop, but is also a Venturer. You have a training event coming up, specifically IOLS, and she is attending the course that both Venturing and Boy Scout leaders will attend. So far she is the only female showing up for the course. So which set of Youth Protection Rules apply? As an ASM there doesn't need to be another female over 21 present since she is an adult. BUT since Venturing leaders will be there, and she is a Venturer, would she be considered a Venturer, and need a female over 21 there? Not trying to stir the pot, I just need to know about this. While I've dealt with male GASers, heck I was one way back when, and knwo how to deal with it, I've never dealt with this potential situation before. Thanks in advance.

Good point, very good point.

MM, You are not joking when you say that folks expect scouts to be experts in traditional scouting skills, even the brand new Scout whose crossed over a few days before is expected to have mastered first aid. I guess the key is to have all of your camp outs do what you would do on a big trip. treat every cmapout as an adventure and keepthose LNT practices in place everytime as it should be.

Thanks for the info, it helps me see where you are coming from. Now you are right that I am an old crumodgeon, then again everyone 21 and over is according to the BSA. Luckily I dont have the bifocals yet, but that may be cause my scouting days are a wee bit later than the 60s. But I do have gray hair, although blame that on 3 boys. As for the bio before a BOR, I do hope you are joking right? Me personally I think a Good evening ladies and gentlemen, my name is___________ I am a _____________ Scout and I am requesting a BOR for ___________________ rank is in order. It introduces yourself to folks, and lets them know what you want. As for your responsibilities with the other adults, you are not joking one bit about the importance teaching adults to put their hands in their pockets or playing cribbage. Biggest challenge I see with new leaders is having them unlearn. Please keep up the good work. In regards to the Whitey scene, Yep a few of the scouts were in the troop a little longer, movie doesnt say how long but I guess a few months tops. But if you recall, Whitey is the first one to get to First Class, and he was leading new, Tenderfoots, remember back then Tenderfoot was the first rank almost equivalent to Scout today and you needed that to buy your uniform. But as you point out repetition, repetition, repetition is the key to keeping those skills sharp. Did I mention repetition is the key to keeping skills sharp? Actually the reason why the BSA got rid of patrol camping without adults had to do with a summer camp in UT. That camp took about 30+ inexperienced scouts learning Wilderness Survival without any MBCs to supervise them while they were learning the skills. That was mistake 1, you do not let scouts alone without adults until they, or their PLs, know exactly what they are doing. Mistake two was the group built a bunch of fires during a fire ban, and those fires caused a forest fire that detroyed several thousand acres of land, and cost the BSA millions. The ban had nothing to with a properly trained PL taking his patrol on a camp out without adults with the SM and parents blessings. Heck there was no patrol that had worked together and were a team involved in the incident; it was a group of individual scouts. Also I believe the policy had to be changed because several states will equate allowing scouts to camp on their own without adults like it has been done since 1910, to child neglect or abuse, so the lawyers got involved. Unfortunately our society does not believe that folks under 25 can be responsible for themselves, unless they are in the military, But that is a different story. Question is this, what is the best way for a scout do demonstrate a knot or any skill but to actually use it for the purpose. For example if you have a hiking and camping troop, you are in the outdoors every month. What is wrong with having a scout learn the knots at the meetings, which is where part of the learning takes place, then have him demonstrate his ability by actually setting up a tent using the knot, or a tarp using the knot? As for whats not mentioned do you mean in the BSHB or do you mean in the BSA literature? You are correct there are no requirement for scouts to setting up dining flies on two camp outs. Not and creating your own rope. Not and properly coiling and storing a rope. Not and blindfolded and behind your back. etc.in the BSHB or in any of the BSA literature. BUT BSA literature does state that they need to be able to do the skills required for the badge. So if the requirement says demonstrate a knot, he needs to be able to do the knot. Now this is where I think the misunderstanding between us comes in at. You state It also means passing the test (singular, no retest). That's explicit in the program. Once a requirement is complete it's complete. My questions is this: when are you testing? Are you testing as soon as they do it right the first time, i.e. in a meeting or at the very first session, etc, or are you allowing them time to practice, do it on their own, feel comfortable with the skill, then allowing them to show you the skill for sign off, or in some instances with my troop, the Scout or adult, after seeing the skill used on a hike, campout, or used for real (remember when I taught first aid and the scout used it for real the next week? ) asks for the book to sign of the requirements. See if you test right after the scout has the skills session, without him having the chance to practice it on his own and really know the skill, thats where the mistake is, and G2A even says that. A badge represents what a scout can do, not what he has done. Being able to do a skill just after being taught at a meeting is rarely, if ever, being able to do something. It takes practice. Kinda like riding a bike, or driving a car.You dont leave the kid alone on the bike the first few days without training wheels. You dont give a scout any type of license after the first driving school class. Unfortunately Ive seen that happen to many times and that is not learning. And I think you would agree with me on that too. Now in regards to the question I asked about what a SM is suppose to do, we agree. We teach the scout the skill. We also agree that we do not take the rank away from the scout, whether hes been wearing the badge a year, or he hasnt gotten it yet b/c the scout office ran out of them and they are backordered. Once the BOR says he earned the rank, he has the rank. And we both agree a SMC is not Pass/Fail, once a SMC is held, whether the SM thinks the scout should go to the BOR or not, the SM must, stress MUST, sign of for the scout having a SMC. And the scout can proceed with the BOR if he still wants it, even over the concerns of the SM. BUT the SMC is just that a conference. Its a chance for the SM to guide and mentor the scout. Can a SM suggest to the scout that he should not go before a BOR until XYZ issue is resolved, whether it is problems with a scout skill, behavior issue, problems while doing his POR etc, because the SM knows the BOR will look negatively on the issue, YES, in fact I think it would be negligence of the SMs part if he did not fully prepare the scout for the BOR, and that includes raising negative issues. BUT the scout can say thank you very much, please sign here as I want my BOR tonite. AND THAT IS THE SCOUTS RIGHT. Wouldnt you agree that part of an SMC is bringing up concerns a BOR may have, before the scout gets blindsided? Trust me being blindsided at a BOR is not fun, especially at your EBOR, been there, done that. I do know that I would have been extremely angry with my SM if he had known in advance that the DAC on the EBOR was not going to approve me for Eagle b/c the DAC didn't approve my project, and he didn't tell me when I had my SMC. He was surprised by that as well when I told him. Now I mention the history of rank advancement because A) our current advancement policies are based upon them, and B) Those are the expectations of both old fogeys like myself, and the general public. There is an expectation, based upon the history of the scouting, that an Eagle Scout would have the skills to use a map and compass and not get lost, which has happened. There is an expectation that an Eagle Scout, heck any scout as I discovered, can do basic first aid. And the GTA says that some who wear a rank that has requirements for it should be able to do it.

As someone mentioned to me once upon a time, would you want the scout to take care of you if you were injured in the woods? If you don't think the scout can handle the skills, they do not need to be signed off on them.

2Cub, Even parents who should know better, say one who earned both Eagle and Exploring Silver as a youth, act like that. My cousin was pushed, and pushed hard to get Eagle so that once he got into HS he could focus on sports. Uncle also pushed me, and to a degree he did succeed as I was on the fast track to Eagle at 14. But I was also having so much fun in scouts, that the fun took over. Uncle couldn't understand why I waited until 18 to get Eagle. Oh well I guess I didn't miss much with him not attending my ECOH. Luckily my first SPL in the troop had just come off active duty from the first Gulf War, and was able to attend. He got all my uncle's, as well as my cousin's parts in the ceremony since they didn't show. I think it worked out extremely well IMHO.

Just ignore the entire thread. I found the info I needed.

Jay, Either you A) must have a strong OUTDOOR program, GREAT FOR YOU! B)You have told your scouts what the expectations are, i.e. mastery of the skill or to use today's GtA they are able to do the skills, they truly learn and retain the skills, and the Scouts and leaders signing off on the requirements make sure the expectations is met, again GREAT FOR YOU! OR C) all the above. I'm leaning towards C with ya. But unfortunately I have met scouts who do not know the skills. One of whom wore an Eagle badge and medal, as well as his sash, who couldn't tell me anything about some of the MBs he earned when I asked about them.

Grant you this is the CS level, but some of the work my son has done in his home school work were either inspired to be doen by his TC, W, or B CSHBs. Also some things that were planned to do with his den, he did in school. The important point is that the work has to be done between June 1 and May 31st in order for it to count for the advancment in the book he is working on. I also know that 2 of the Scouts I counseled for CitNat and Cit World who were also home schooled had their parents incorporate what I was doing with them into their school work.

Ok, I'm in the process of getting some topo maps from training, and found free, I don't know their exact name but for argument sake call them, Topo maps from the US Geological Survey on the internet. In some aspects I like them better than the old school topo maps, b/c they use satelite images with the topo info on top. So you see the actual quad instead of a drawing of it. But one thing I noticed is that the grids on it were crooked. Then I noticed that the grid is a UTM grid, not the old Lat and Long. grid. Doing research, I can see how UTM makes it a bit easier to find your exact location since it is based on the metric system. I like that. But my question is this, since the grid is crooked, which whould be used to represent true north: top of the page,or the UTM grid lines? Also in regards to marking the map for declination, should I create Lat and Long lines, then do the Declination ones, or should I use the UTM grid lines and use declination off of them. This old fogey is trying to learn a new trick, so please bear with me. Thanks in advance.

What Base's troop is encounering is not the program. The comments are not scoutlike at all. As you know I was one of those scouts who busted butt at fundraisers to support my scouting career. I was fortunate in that although the unit ended up in a very wealthy part of the suburbs by the end of my career, it started in the lower and middle class neighborhoods, and took all comers. When you joined the troop,it didn't matter if your dad was the repo man, carpet salesman, the career sailor, the cardiologist, nautical engineer, or, my personal favorite, the VP of the local Anheuser Buscher bottler, everyone was treated equally. And that is how scouting should be. But I have seen the actions and heard the comments and remarks. Heck I was subject to a few myself. It's not scoutlike, it's demeaning, and really has no place in scouting.

That and, knowing national, there would be no knots with the First Class Anchor on them for us fogeys who earned awards that can use the "bug" device Still can't figure out why it's restricted when the other devices are not though.

I know some folks complain, heck I heard complaints from two CS leaders whose sons will cross over next year, but I like it when parents are either discouraged from going on camp outs, or if the do come, are asked to stay in certain areas away from the Scouts, until they are completely trained. I do not know if my troop had that policy or not, but I do know that the adults had their own set of activities to do in camp, some of it similar to what the boys were doing, and we didn't see parents, and rarely other adults, except in passing and at campfires. To paraphrase Master Yoda, Cub Scout leaders have much to unlearn.

A thought just occurred to me based upon something that happened to me. I wear both the Key knot and Training Award knot, one i got for being on the district committee and meeting the requirements, the other for being an ASM and meeting those requirements. I don't wear devices as stated previously. One of my friends saw me with the Key and commented, "I never knew you were an SM?" It took him a minute or two to realize the knot is used for multiple awards.

ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Having a DC is not a "good problem," it is an AWESOME, WONDERFUL STUPENDOUS, AD NAUSEUM PROBLEM! and yes that was all screaming. Can you tell I like DCs? Google Den Chief ceremonies and they are out there. I've also seen folks modify DL investiture ceremonies for DC use. Key points to remember: 1) Make a big deal of it as it is. 2) make sure a job description, whether full or abreviated is used so that all know what the job entails But I want to say. 3) Make him publicly agree to various parts of teh job description, kinda like a swearing in. 4)Now here is where old age gets me. I want to say the CORDS are presented by the CM, or other CS leader, at the pack meeting, with the POR patch being presented by the SPL at the troop meeting. Either way, one item is presetned by the pack and represetns service tot he pack, the other item is presented by the troop reperesenting service to it. ONE WORD OF ADVICE ( emphasis now, not screaming,) Please make sure you use your DC appropriately. make sure the DC does stuff and leads activities, not just 'babysit' a den for the DLs. I quit working with one den b/c they were not using me to do things, instead I was babysitting. I didn't like that, and at the end of the year I switched dens. That made a world of difference.

Tampa, When I was first told to do sign offs as a 11 or 12 year old Second Class Scout, I had to teach and sign off on First Aid Skill Award, I asked how would I know when to sign off. I was told when I felt comfortable with the scout doing the skills on me in an emergency situation. I was given a what if situation: what if "Owl" was the only person with you and had to do first aid, would you trust him to do it right and save your life? That stressed the importance of me signing off, and reinforced the expecation in the BSHB that when I signed off on something, the scout needed to have mastered the skill. A few years later when I was up in Canada, I got hypothermia. We were a "district" contingent or troop, i.e. we had scouts from every single troop go, but it was one of the scouts from my troop that recognized that I had hypothermia with my shivering, slurred speach, couldn't speak properly, and faint blue ting. If memory serves, it was one of the scouts that Owl taught FA SA to that recognized it, but I could be mistaken. So I must have done something right Do not get me wrong, I am not knocking former CS leaders, heck I am currently one myself. But after 4-5 years of training to do things fro your den and being a leader, it is hard to step back. And the opposite is true; I sometimes have to remember that I'm working with CSs and cannot expect them to do things like a Boy Scout. Heck one of the dad commented he couldn't be a DL, because he still rememebrs all the stuff his troop did, and soemtimes cannot adjust. Although he does plan on being an ASM when the time comes.

"As I think I mentioned in the other thread, we don't give boys patches as he learns different plays in football, different pieces of music for the band, or his part in the school play." No but we do give out varsity letters, trophies, etc when they achieve goals though. I remember getting my 4 letters in JROTC Drill Team once I qualified for, and competed with, the varsity drill team at the end of each year. And we even got trophies to boot. I got my cheerleading letter at the end of the year for making practices, going to camp (yes there is sucha thing as cheerleading camp) competing in a competition, going to all football and basketball games, and going to a city wide sports foundation fundraiser ( which was awesome b/c I got to see one of our alumni tearup when I thanked him for the scholarship bequest he gave as I was one of those on it). And I even got my letter for being on the chess team. So even in sports there are physical rewards.

Just reread my post. One sentence should read I have seen many a CS l;eader move up to BS and continue the CS model, and I pray that it doesn't happen to me when all 3 of my boys finally become BSs. I don't think I'd have the time for scouting if I had 34 kids.

One of the things I remember from my old BSHB is that a Scout pays his own way. I know I busted butt to stay in scouting, as I couldn't afford it. My troop sponsored me to attend BA22, paying for 1/2 the fee. BUT there was a committment to make to the troop. Also I almost didn't go to Jambo and Canada at the last minute. even busting butt, I ended up a little short. I got a sponsor with no strings attach except have fun, and give back to scouting. I've been trying to give back to scouting for the past 19 years now, and I don't think I'll ever be able to pay back what that trip meant to me even if I live to see BSA's bicentennial. I know some troops with deep pockets, and I do not begrudge them those pockets either. But I do wish the scouts would earn their way as I think they appreciate the trip more.