Eagle92

SR, I never went through WB, I was asked to attend, repeatedly in fact. Now when I did SMF as a 19yo, my tentmate was a 40 something. Again we were both adults and it didn't matter. But when I did my cruise as an 18yo sea scout, my cabin mate was a 16 yo. So yes there is an inconsistancy. That's why my council came up wiht an unofficial term for the 18-20yo crowd Gray Area Scouters (GASers for short). I know when intermixing events occured, like OA events, the way things were divided was under 18, 18-20, 21+ male and 21+ female.

So now we have 13 year old Boy Scouts attending the same leadership training class with 20 year old Venturers. Of course, Wood Badge lowered the age for participants to 18 and if they are registered as an adult in a Troop, they can attend. Confusing? At the NYLT Course Directors Conference a few weeks ago, the age issue came up. Basically, the rule of thumb was that you certainly wouldn't want to put 13 or 14 year old participants in patrols and tents with 18 and 19 year olds. Then they said that if they are older than 18, you should be steering them towards Wood Badge anyway. Then why did you change NYLT to include Venturing? Actually in regards to WB, 18-20 year olds could always attend IF serving as an ASM and had completed training. I was asked to attend WB in the 19-20 year old range (I didn't complete SMF until I was 19) as they would have waived the 2 year tenure requirement since I came from the ranks so to speak. even if they didn't waive the 2 year tenure, a 20 yo could attend WB. Now WB is open to all 18-20 year olds, whether they are registered as an Adult ADL, AWDL, or ASM or as a youth with a ship or crew. only requirement is that they have completed basic training for their position. So here it is, if someone is 17 and under, they go to NYLT, 18 and older, irregardless of adult or youth status goes to WB21C As to who to do the ages thing. Remember Venturing LOWERED the age to 13.5 AND completed 8th Grade.

In regards to PORs remaining on after they are finished with the job, does your units do a uniform regularly? Yes my troop did one every week and it was part of the patrol of the year competition. But also there was an expectation that you only wore the POR you were in, not any past ones. And gentle reminders form the SPL tended to work. Me personally I don't like velcro on the uniforms, but I've seen it used by adults.

There are no national rank requirements for any POR, not even Den Chief. That said I know the troops I've been with have usually put First Class for SPL, ASPL, and other troop level jobs. HOWEVER if you need to put a Tenderfoot in a job because they can do it, and do it right, What's stopping you. The troops that I've been with, with the exception of one, have been established units with long histories. So the leadership culture has been there. But if you are starting from scratch, or restarting a unit, you use your best scouts to get the jobs done, irregardless of rank. And if the rankign scouts complain, tell them the truth, the younger guy is doing a better job, and that unless they start performing as well, if not better, you won't reccommend to the SPL that they take the jobs.

I don't know. But using my troop's model as a reference, I would say it's implied. ASPL was the PL of the Leadership Corps. He's the one who worked them, made sure they did their jobs, mentored them when needed, etc. He was the only non-elected PL as he was apointed by the SPL. I know every troop has it's own experiences, but when National did away with Leadership Corps in 1989, and created venture crews for the older scouts instead (and since 1998 called venture patrols) my troop continued with the LC model for the venture crew. When Venturing came out in 1998, the venture crew became a Venturing Crew, and still followed the old LC model, with the addition of 18-20yo ASMs being members. To my knowledge that was how the troop, and crew, operated until Katrina changed things. EDITED: Thanks for the link Fred. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

Base, Yes, with tongs of course Seriously though, I can see some folks misinterpreting the chart. I know I had my Cubs doing cookies in a cardboard box oven twice now, in addition to foil meals. #1 Complaint at CSDC was that the cubs didn't cook.

This is how the system worked in my old troop. The Leadership Corps, as the patrol of oler scouts who did the troop level PORs were callled, had the following requirement: 1) Had to be a First Class or above. 2) Had to be a PL for at least 6 months, preferably longer. 3) The current group had to vote you into the LC. 4) SPL to appoint you to a POR. 5) SM approved it. That way folks who had been trained already were in the PORs and they had leadership expereince form their term as PL.

Did anyone notice a few interesting things in the chart referenced by OGE? #1 Bow saws can be used by Webelos and above? OK where is that on the Whittling chip as I do not beleive Webelos can earn Totin' Chit. #2 Wolves and Bears cannot do outdoor cooking? What about Wolf Requirement 8e e.With an adult, help to plan, prepare, and cook an outdoor meal. and Bear Requirement 9g. With an adult, cook something outdoors. Me thinks there needs to be better quality control and editorial review at national. I know The How To Books have directions to make foil meal packets and cardboard box ovens to cook in the outdoors.

I'm one fo those who made the comment about power tools and scouts. I may have been thinking CUB scouts, b/c there is a no power tool rule somewhere, gotta find its exact location. As for scouts, we all know no chainsaws.

I think the idea for the project, the planning, organizing, recruiting of workers, fundraising, etc should be done by the Life Scout. However, the scout needs to use his resources to get the project done. Say for example a Scout wants to do a "Toys for Tots" drive for a a local hospital, and he has an in with someone at the hospital who can hook him up with the folks to get it approved on that end, I have no problem. If a scout has an idea to build something sketches it out, etc and then talks to a professional about the idea, bringing out the drawing he made and allowes the adult to not only redraw them to professional standards, but also suggests improvements that the scout can choose to do or not, I have no problem wiht it. I don't even mind the adults working on the project, as long as they do not try to take over the project. Sometimes there are things that only the adults can do, like using powertools. But if the adult hands the scout the project to do, the adult does the organizing, etc, and it is really the adults project and not the scout's, THEN I have a problem. BUt if your troop doesn't want adult involvement, that's your decision.

Base, In 83's defense, he may be encountering the challenges I'm facing in my neck of the woods. In this area it's Cub Scouts and their leaders that are treated as second class members, not the Sea Scouts and Venturers. My personal favorite quote from someone who should know better since they are a WB21C 4 beader is that,"Cubs don't need to camp." But this is a positive thread on success stories, not a negative one. So I'll talk about what is going on in regards to Cubs in this area. Despite several years of neglect, since a key CS volunteer passed away in 1999 (and she was encountering resistance with her programs I might add) the CS program was seriously neglected. That changed with a new SE who is program oriented. First thing he did was get a CS outdoor committee organized. next he got 2 council wide CS camp outs organized at 2 of the 6 council camps in October. This actually encouraged some of the districts with council camps in their territory to do their own CS family camp outs at the same time to A) save travel times, and B) avoid some of the crowds (one of the camps had serious crowd issues that are soon to be taken care of). These have become annual events now and people look forward to them. Secondly for the BSA's Centennial, he got a "Cub World" going at the council camporee. While everyone was located at the same place, Cubs were in one area, Scouts and Venturers in another. Two separate program areas both groups, except the waterfront was open for all and the midway area. Third one of the council camps is becoming "Cub Friendly (CF)." The council moved the rowboats fromm the main camp to the CF one b/c they were not being used during the year, and the CF camp is the only one that Cubs can go boating on. He also had the OA do do some serious repair and maintence work a the camp, which really benefits everyone. Finally, and this has some controversy in my neck of the woods, he is doing some improvements to the CF camp. They are expanding the parking lot and roads and enlarging some of the campsites by taking down trees that need to be cut, i.e old and decaying ones. Most folks don't have a problem with it, but a few do. The big controversy is clear cutting a section of camp that is not being used and reforesting it. I admit I have mixed emotions on it, but the campsites affected are overgrown and no one is able to use them currently as some of the areas you cannot tell are campsites with the brush. Talk is that they are planning to redo some of the campsites, and add waterlines out to that section of the camp. BSo with all the good stuff the SE has done so far, I have some faith in him, especially since the camp is the one he grew up at as a scout. So overall I am very hopeful.

Do all you can to mentor the scout, but do not do the project for him. Sometimes the best lessons are learned from failure. Give you an example. We had an Eagle candidate who planned to do a project for a local NPO. He worked very hard on it, but he screwed up, and screwed up royally. He didn't follow the wishes of the NPO, he did not look for advice from professionals who are parents in the troop, he did not take advice from the professionals when offered, he did not plan or promote the service project until the last minute, and I can go on and on. NPO basically told him stop, we don't want your help anymore. Scout realized he screwed up, and publically admitted it. Now he is trying to start the prject process from scratch again, and I hope he learned his lesson, and does not repeat any mistakes.

Trainer, 1) Glad the interrogations are over. 2) Any SM worth their salt will know their scouts, and work with them,not against them, at their SMC. My oldest has some speech problems, and I know how he can get at times when he gets nervous. Again a good SMC knows his scouts. 3) Think the outdoor program will improve to reinforce those skills.

Beav, Not only ranks, but MBs, and in one instance Skill Awards. Long story short, lots of folks had to turn in copies of their HBs to get the records straight as dates of BORs and MBs for the rank didn't match, or time between ranks didn't match. One thing Fred reminded me is that if a BOR is finding a problem, saying a number of scouts not learning skills, part of their responsibility is to work with the SM to correct the problem.

Actually you can download for free USGS maps from their website. They are not the typical topographical maps though. They are actual sat pics with the topographical information on top of them. I think they are actually better since it the actual image and can get a better idea where you are. Also they have the UTM grids on them. I admit it threw me off since the UTM grid has it's own declination which is different than MN, but what's cool is that you can figure our your position to w/in 10 meters with the map, and then relay that info easily.

A couple of things. 1)Yes the expectations need to be set out in advance and everyone is clear on the matter: youth and adults alike. If a SM doesn't think a scout is able to do the skill until he checks them off, then NO ONE BUT THE SM should do the signing (emphasis not shouting)I also think it says something about the SM's trust with his youth and other adult leaders, but that is a different story. As GBB said, "Train them, Trust them, Let them lead." 2)If adults are signing off on skills being learned, and then bouncing a scout back because the scout doesn't know it, then the problem lies with the adult, not the scout. The adult should not have signed of the requirement until the Scout is able to do it, using the GtA language ( or mastered the skill using previous BSHBs). FURTHER the adult should have guided the program so that the skills are used regularly.

Beav, Don't be too sure about the BSHB not being an offical document. I know when 1 council's records were messed up( if memory serves the registrar put the date SHE put the information into the council computer records and not when it was actually earned), they used copies of the scout's BSHB and the signatures from it to process the records.

Base, Not to be nosy, but I am , What has your pack done to retain scouts?

Even in NC, there are concerns about snow and survival shelters. I know last year one troop that started out with survival shelters, moved to a permanent shelter, encased the sides in plastic and had stoves on to provide heat b/c the weather forecast was way off with a bunch of snow and lower than expected temps. that had over a foot of snow and got down to the teens. So I would not be concerned if this happened again with the troop, and they had Webelos with them, b/c I think they did the right thing. Some of the new scouts, and they had a bunch of them, didn't have the proper gear for as cold as it got. But in talking to three moms, one of whom has a son in the troop already who was one of the news scouts, all said no way are the Webelos ready for survival camping in the cold. Oh well. But yeah they enjoyed it, and did it again in the spring.

ROTFLMBO

Been a while since I worked summer camp, or taught at a MBU, so please bear with me. 1) Do the Leaders' Guide list any advance work that needs to be done or state that you cannot complete the MB unless you do advance work? I ask because I remember when I was a scout, we knew which MBs could be completed that week, which ones were a challenge to complete, and which ones that required work to do and bring to camp prior to completion. I know for some MBs I did a lot of work prior to camp for, bringing the stuff with me to show. And when I worked at summer camps, it was the same way with prereqs and workd to do prior to camp being listed. And I have placed information in the MBU book stating which requirements needed to be done prior to the MBU, and I had a bunch of scouts do the work and bring the results with them. 2) I admit I have mixed emotions on the sumemr camp staff issue. I've seen some excellent, extremely knowledgable folks teach the MBs, and I've seen some idiots who I wouldn't trust to use the skills he was teaching in an emergency. Thing is, it was both youth and adults that fell into both categories. I personally like, for lack of a better term, a "mixed" approach. Youth and adults who really know their stuff teaching the classes, as it really should be. In the case of the youth, their area director whould be supervising them, i.e visiting their classes periodically, to insure that they are actuallty doing what they are suppose to be doing. 3)Sometimes folks will feel pressured by the program director, scout's SM, etc to give away the badge. Had that happen to me once with Lifesaving MB. Sorry but your scout didn't do the requriements, and I am not going to give any MB, especially the truly important ones that will save someone, away. PLUS your scout was the one disrupting the class and goofing off which didn't allow me the time to have anyone complete the MB. 4) There need to be limits to the number of folks in a class. You can only teach so many folks at a time. Either limit the numbers,or get more staff.

Ok how about my old troop's Webelos Overniter idea. Now remember this is in SE Lousiana/ SW MS area, so it can be warmer in February than other places. What we would do is have a "wilderness survival" weekend. We would split the Webelos amongst the patrols and teach them some knots and lashings. Then most of the morning, and a bit of the afternoon, was spent building "survival" shelters for the entire patrol. That way A) everyone spent time working on a good shelter for all and no one had a poor shelter B) built up esprit de corps amongst the patrol members, C) got the Webelos and Scouts to know one another better D)In case it got cold, more people=more body heat to keep warm. Once everyone had their shelters complete, we had some pioneering games like Chariot Races and Walker. Also did some games like Capture the Flag, Manhunt, etc. Now we did some utensiless cooking, and some regular cooking. Overall it was a fun weekend with both Webelos and Scouts having a blast, and it became an annual event. In fact I have a pic of one of the troop's Eagles, who was an ASM, in college and just back from Afghanistan at one of the weekends building his own shelter 15 years after starting these campouts. Everyone has fun.

WOW, I am not envious of your situation. I would have a talk with him about expectations, how, yes he was signed off on the skill, but more importantly he needs to know it as the badge represents what he is able to do, not what he has done. I'd tell him that he needs to practice basic scoutcraft because as a PL, he is expected to be able to not only do them, but teach them. And tell him that he needs to talk to the SPL about what skills he needs to teach in the next few months. Also if there are problems with the POR, talk to him about it NOW. Tell him what your expectations are, tell him how you are placing the responsibility on him because you know he can do it. More later

A few phone calls to tell the parents to pick up the kids NOW will solve behavior problems.

I'm more concerned about the Sea Scout Centennial next year.