Eagle92

Good ideas all, please keep them coming. SSS, Sad to say, but the LDS unit does very little, if anything, with our district. Their stake is based out of another council, and they do more with them than with us. Someone with an interest in being training chair has already got some ideas long the lines that you have. Problem is he is not on the district committee at the moment. I'm working on that. Plan on giving both participants and staff some type of booklet with the info in it as it is presented, and places for notes. Somewhere, probably int he attic, is my old BA22 notebook. That's something I did keep with me while I moved around. Base, Thanks for the offer, but I am on a tight budget and also do not know how many folks will even attend. I keep hearing a lot are interested, but only 2 folks, both staffers, have paid. I do not want to inconvenience anyone. SP, Do you have a copy of the ceremony by any chance? I was planning on taking elements of ceremonies I've seen and used for other things, but one specific to IOLS would be great. Stosh, Great idea! One of the things I am doing is trying to mix up the different abilties of the leaders, and see if a member of the patrol can teach the skill for the module with the staff in the background. I am thinking about giving the student about a week to two week notice to prep. One thing we got is we got some folks with great outdoor skills. Heck I'd put one of the CS leaders who plans to attend, if work lets him, against any experienced leader,and he could probably teach large parts of the course. BUT he also hikes the AT for fun. Again I want it hands on. Outdoors, I can understand. back it the day as a 19YO ASM, I did the outdoor potion of SMF and didn't learn anything new either. But I also did a lot of hiking and camping as a scout. Agree mastery cannot be met in one weekend. Goal is to make it hands on, get comfortable with the skill, get ideas to bring back to the PLC to incorporate into their program and keep it hands on. I go into program details in a moment, and I think you will like. DG, YOU ARE CAUSING ME HEADACHES NOW! Seriously though you are making me review the WeLOT book I have fully in the very near future. I admit I've done IOLS before, but no one has done WeLOT in my neckof the woods, and I discovered it was offered only one time in the council. Focus has been BALOO and IOLS. DEs and others have said have the WDLs take IOLS as they will get more out of it. Quazse, You are a mind reader, orienteering is a major concern. I haev already sent out an equipment list with the registration info, noting it will be cold and to be prepared. And a shake down will be done at registration. More on that in a minute. Eisley, In regards to Outdoors' comment, I found a statement in the IOLS to the effect that Leaders attending the course should get the skills signed off as they do it just as the scouts do. That concerns me greatly, and may be why a lot of folks think "One and Done" And we all know that there is no way someone with 0 background in the outdoors can master the T-2-1 skills in a weekend. That's why I want it emphasized that these are life long learning skills. Please keep the comments coming and I will post what my plan is to date in a bit. Finally THANK YOU AL VERY MUCH.

SP, For whatever reason, our training seem parochial. Someone from one district won't attend another district's training. Only time you see multi district ones is when the council is putting on the training, i.e. UoS, Venturing Weekend, etc. Don't know if it's b/c of the distances, geographically we are a huge council, or culture, but we do not have many joint trainings. I know that several districts would get together and do the SM Fundamentals course when I went through it. HeckI still have my SMF necker with the 3 district's names and the course logo on it.

DG, One of the things I am a little disappointed in in regards to the current BSHB is some information is either missing, or abreviated. I actually some of my older BSHBs to list equipment. I admit I have not read through the entire WeLOT book, but from what I've read so far, a lot of the information is the same, and the WeLOT book cites the IOLS book. But again I am still reviewing course material and coming up with a plan. I do know Scouter-T has some info on conducting a joint course and what is needed. Bart, I don't beleive we have a LNT master educator in our neck of the woods yet. But I am working on getting one of our adults who has a very strong eco-con background to help teach if available. If anyone could be considered a master trainer, I think it would be him since he has taught the eco con courses for over 40 years, including at Philmont. Also do you have a link to the "Tenderfoot to First Class" camp program, or is that one of the NCS docs you have? I ask becasue A) it sounds like a valuable resource and B) if it is the summer camp program doc, I want to know what is suppose to be done as we had issues at summer camp this past year. Please keep it coming.

Folks, While I've been in scouting for a long time, I do not know everything, I do make mistakes, and I do overlook things. So that is why I am posting here. Here's my situation. My district hasn't done a IOLS course this year, not going into details but they are legit reasons INHO. Three things spurred me to push into play an IOLS with 1.5 months of lead time. 1) There is a very big need as we have a bunch of new leaders in my district. 2)The NH incident in which a 31yo Eagle ASM got lost despite having a map and compass. 3)The two or three younger Scouts who got separated from their unit while backpacking. Anyway if you could create your own IOLS course, what resources would you use and how would you conduct the course? Here are the limitations. 1) Topics have to correspond to the topics covered in the IOLS syllabus, so no SSD and SA info as well as canoe camping. 2)It's going to be cold 3) You are using older Scouts, Venturers, and 18-20 ASMs to help teach the course (I know some adults may not pay attention to the youth and I am teaming them up with adult staffers to make sure the ADULTS behave. 3 of those younger staffers I have no reservations on, and 1 potential staffer is coming highly recommended by an adult staffer whom I know and trust). 4) Will also have some Cub Scout Leaders who want to get the WeLOT info,as well as prep for being ASMs when the time comes. Plus a few of them think the course will be fun. Ok have at it, and my staffer who is on the site can post too. Thanks in advance.

Just not the celery. Ok going back to the inlaws to get more DOCTOR WHO shows. Thankfully my sis in laws bedroom no longer looks like the 4th Doctor's T.A.R.D.I.S. But she still has her pet K9 and Romana I outfit.

That's one disadvantage with the new program: they do not relate how to make the things fun. I use the current den meeting plans as the foundation to my plan. But I've used my own expereinces, common sense, other folks expereinces, and other resources to make the meetings fun. I'll give a few examples. I had a bike cop do the bicycle meeting. I had a wood carver do the Whittling Chip class. I had one dad with experiecne with carpentry do another. I had someone with expereince doing story telling do the Folk tales meeting. The key is using your resources. Also I have a collection of older books that I use for ideas too. Why reinvent the wheel, when you can adapt somethign to your needs? Good luck.

A few comments from my perspective. 1) I'm old school. I think BP created the greatest youth program in the world, and GBB perfected it. And yes while times and technology changes, the goals and foundation of scouting, remain the same:creating better citizens physically, mentally, and morally through an outdoor program. 2)Outdoor program attracts youth, and keeps them. You have an active program that focuses on fun and adventure, and people will join and stay. Thsi is true even at the Cub Scout Stage. 3)Leadership skill CAN be developed using the Patrol Method and an outdoor program. I've been reviewing my old Brownsea 22 syllabus, and a lot of the leadership skills were taught using outdoor skills. 4) Technology has always been part of training. I don't remember any slideshows or movies when I attended BA22 back in the day, but the syllabus does mention those items, the equivelent of laptops, projectors, and powerpoints of today, in the syllabus as training tools. 5)From what I've been hearing WB21C is focusing more on management and is not truly incorporating the outdoor skills. Again this is second hand as I have not taken WB21C, and it may be just based upon local councils and how they do things (all scouting is local), but if taking the outing out of scouting is the trend, it is a grave concern as the outdoors is a foundation of the movement. 5a) Again it appears we are moving away from the outdoors. has anyone really looked at the current BSHB and noticed that a lot fo basic outdoor skills info is no longer in it? 6)Folks are getting too caught up on advancement, management, and other things, and not focusing on the Fun and Adventure that should be scouting. Kinda sad when a new SM, when told about an exciting HA program asks what merit badges will his boys earn. 7) In some places there is WB snobery, i.e. you aint got beads, you ain't worth spit. Fortunately I have not encountered it too much, a little of that was at NCS btu not a lot, but also a lot of folks think I've already done WB. When they were promoting the course at RT, my name got mentioned as having done it, and I had to tell the staffer later, no I haven't, which surprised him greatly. 8) While the patrol competition of WB has its place, it can go overboard and be inappropriate at times. Again WB came up at NCS, and once at an OA meeting. In a nutshell leadership training does have apart to play in Scouting, but it should not be goal of scouting, just as getting Eagle should not be the goal. And just as a mixed age patrol will have scouts of various KSAs and skill levels, our leaders have various KSAs and skill levels. We need to work together to develop out youth physically, mentally, and morally.

Why are you leading them, isn't that the SPL and PL's jobs Seriously though, yes it is a great feelign being in the outdoors with Scouts. I visited a troop this weekend as they were camping at the location I'm doing IOLS/WeLOT next month. It was what the doctor ordered as I was going through outdoor withdrawl, since I haven't been camping since Oct.

TT, To quote the DOCTOR," Bowties are cool."

If memory serves, 1995 WSJ had beer sales. I didn't buy any as I had a couple of liters of Virgin Cola that some of the Brits were trying to buy off of me. Wish they would sell it in the US.

I believe Green Bar Bill said "Train them, trust them, let them lead." At 16, kids can have a license to drive a car and go wherever they want, and depending upoin the the state your are in, with or without formal driver's ed training. I know I didn't do driver's ed until AFTER my license, and that was to save $ on insurance.

I can tell you that ASMs were not allowed as far back as 1985.

Fred, Trust me you don't want a lot of money in the council off, just enough to cover advancement. I've seen units that folded that still had accounts at the scout office that hadn't been used in years. Also I've had instances where I bought stuff at one council office, which then forwarded the PW to my council, and a week late they deducted funds and sent me the stuff I already purchased.

Ok as an "aqua rat" and former Sea Scout, I don't know what the problem is with jet skis. I admit I've never ridden on one, but I remember having a blast earning motorboating back in the day. I also had a blast with my ship sailing under power. So I don't see what the problem is. Also isn't "Outing three-fourths of Scouting?" Kids are in the outdoors, so what's the problem.

I know Beav can explain himself, but I think I know where he is going and will try to relate it since he hasn't answered. And please correct me if I am wrong. In regards to younger leaders, sometimes they are not taken as seriously by some parents, heck even other leaders, due to their age. They can have the exact exact same experiences and KSAs in scouting, but the person 10 to 20 years older will be viewed as more knowledable. I'll give you a first hand example. As a 21yo chapter adviser, we had a challenge going on with the district. I came up with an idea to solve it, but was pretty much ignored by the rest of the committee. One of the other committee members, one in his late 40s early fifties, hears what I am proposing, likes it, and then suggests the exact same thing I said, and everyone acted as if he was Moses coming down from Mt. Sinai. As for parents not listening to other parents, sometimes it is viewed as favoritism, i.e. they want it one way to benefit the son and not everyone else. By having someone without kids, it lend more credibility. Another first hand experience, we had a situation with one leader's kid being a "faster mover" i.e just going through the ranks at incredible speed. While the kid really knew his stuff, there were leadership problems. Dad was an ASM, and there was a serious debate going on b/c dad viewed the discussion as holding his son back, and favoritism to the SM's son, who was in the same patrol. Long story short, I, the leader with no kids in the troop, proposed a solution that satisfied everyone. Funny thing is this, 99% of it was the SM's idea.

OK I am giving up on this. I was hoping for civility, but it's not happening.I am just going to do my part, follow the rules, and focus on my scouts.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I like discussions and debates, debate being used in the classical not contemporary sense. But I think this is starting to turn ugly. Belay last, I think the topic is starting to become nasty and maybe we need to consider locking the thread. The original question was about what people thought and morphed into what was the official OA policy concerning parents and adult members attending Ordeals. I admit I am an old fogey, I quit being a youth in the OA in the mid 90s, and have been either and officer or adviser from '93 to about 3 years ago, although I may still be listed as an AA, I am not as active as before due to Cubs. So I have almost 20 years of SOPs, P&Ps, etc of information, some electronic, a lot paper, and some in both formats. So once I find the policy, and I may have lent the book out so it may be more time than anticipated, I will post it. But the policy of talking to parents and/or clergy about the OA and allowing them to attend if they still have concerns goes back to at least 1993, if not earlier. Compare my situation to the student who cannot recall the name of the battle in which the 101st was surrounded by the Germans in December and their acting CO responds to the German demands for surrender with "NUTS!" but can tell you all about the details of the battle. But getting back to the nastiness, can we just drop it now and lock the thread? Thanks in Advance, E92 PS, that is the Battle, or Siege, of Bastogne BTW. Don't tell any of those vets that Patton rescued them, they didn't need any rescuing .(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Base, I can understand where you are coming from. TRUST ME ON THAT ONE When I took over as chapter adviser a few years back, the OA was known as the "council's slave labor corps" as all we did was Work Work Work. We did two fun parties, Christmas and a pool party, as well as the lodge fellowship, but that was it. We never sent anyone to conclave b/c it occurred the same weekend that we worked an event on the district level. We didn't have any fun chapter events, etc. It's real easy to fall into the WWW mode. Part of that was that folks are use to one thing and cannot escape from the mentality. We started doing fun field trips like tours of a nearby USAF base, visiting local museums, and attending conclave, which was a major morale booster for us. But it was hard work to get the chapter to think outside the WWW mode. And the funny thing is: we've actually added not only fun stuff, but a community service project to boot. SP I read the article you linked too. Not doubting it for a bit, but there are some factual errors in it. I do not remember LFL policies on leadership numbers, but I do believe they do not have the 2 deep policy since it was designed for schools originally, But Exploring DID have a 2 deep leadership policy from about 1989 when it came out, until August 1998 when Exploring became part of LFL. I was an AA for a Post/Crew on and off from 1996 - 2001, and 2 deep was the rule.

Not to be a PITA, but if parents have the right to attend everything with their sons, then why does BSA specifically state in published policy that cannot attend one type of event? Wouldn't that be a YP issue too, in fact wouldn't that BSA policy that stated parents cannot attend in any capacity also violate policies expressed in YPT? But here it is, and it is probably from one of the most current BSA publications, if not THE most current one. Guide to Advancement, copyrighted 2011 and came out a month or so back, states the following 8.0.1.0 Conducting the Board of Review - It may help if the unit leader introduces the candidate, and if a few minutes are spent getting acquainted. The unit leader may remain in the room, but only to observe, not to participate unless called upon. The Scouts parents, relatives, or guardians may not be in attendance in any capacitynot as members of the board, as observers, or even as the unit leader. Their presence can change discussion dynamics. Emphasis is mine. So here we have a clear case of 1 BSA policy that appears to be in contradiction to another one. But is it really? Again there is a BSA policy on the topic of the OA and non-member parents, and I am working on finding it (will be talking to the current Chapter Advisor tonite at RT as I may have given him that book when he replaced me). But in a nut shell you talk to parents about any concerns they have about the process, and if they insist, THEN you let them come.

Don't recharter them until they pay. May sound cruel, but trust me on it. In the past my CO actually paid for everyone's registration, we just had to pay for BL. The rest of our dues went towards pack expenses. That changed last year when the CO began construction of a new youth center, so we had to pay out of the budget. We rarely have everyone meetings, except maybe the Christmas, BnG and "Graduation" at the end of the year. So we'd contact folks who were not may not be attending due to sports or whatever to see if they were still interested, and keep them on the charter if they were. Long story short we paid for folks who said they were still interested, and never came back once the season was over. It cost us a pretty penny.

I must be getting old, I can't believe I forgot he camp staff motto: Can't fix it, duct it. Can't duct it, chuck it. As for you Sailing, I'll give you that one,. LOL

I wouldn't put POR on the plank b/c they change so fast. I would have a designated position for the PL and APL kinda like this: -------------------------- ! PATROL NAME AND TOTEM ! ! ! ___________________________ % % !PL's Name and Ranks (1st)! % % ! MEMBER's info ! % % !APL's Info (last) !

Honestly it depends. I'm one of those who believes in a a little "sweat equity" in that the scout needs to do something to earn his way. My troop did 1 fundraiser a year, and I busted butt that entire weekend to earn my way for the year. We were responsible for sanitation at a county, ok parish 'cause LA is different, fair. It was a dirty job, but someone had to do it . My mom also helped by manning the booth we set up to sell food. When I went to jambo and Canada, I spent 18 months doing all kinds of things, every single fundraiser the jambo troop did and then some, to get the money. I busted it and was about to back out about a month prior, and got a sponsor for the last $100. That may not soundlike much, but it was 1989 and minimum wage was less that $4/hour. Now when I did BA22 training, troop put up money for 1 person to go. But the troop liked to send two of us, so I had a campership to cover 1/2, and I busted butt to cover the other half. So depending uponw what the expected outcome is, you either make them earn it, make them bust butt, but help if short, or if the unit will be getting a benefit, subsidize.

Sailing, This is a DUCT TAPE HIJACK, stick with the program why doncha

While it's been a while since I been with a troop, or worked camp staff, here are some things I've experienced, seen, or remember hearing about. 1)Kids whose parent were at camp getting them out of some of the "dirty assignments" like waiter duty, cleaning the campsite latrines etc. 2)Parents who were pressuring kids to complete x number of MBs in addition to FYC program (luckily a crusty old Marine MGySgt in charge of the program would tell the parents to knock the crap off and let the kid have some fun, just not in htose exact words ) 3) I've heard parents curse out scouts as well as insult and bash them and their own sons. Worse case was one parent helping teach a MB class and getting angry 'cause the kids couldn't do the skills yet. He cursed out the two kids in their canoe i the middle of the lake from shore, and everyone could hear him. He wasn't teaching the rest of the week. 4) I've seen pull politics into allowing their sons to remain at camp, when they should have been sent home for theft. 5) I've seen parents pressure staffers to award MBs that should not have been given. 6) I've heard about parents trying to pressure CDs into allowing their kids to stay after they assaulted leaders. The homesickness is hard, but manageable.