Eagle92

ALL NEW LEADERS, WHETHER WITH YOUTH EXPEREINCE OR NOT NEED TRAINING! (Caps for emphasis, not shouting) The advantage the ones with previous experience may, stress MAY, have is that they have a background on Patrol Method, Youth Led, outdoor skills, etc. But they need to learn their role: advising and mentoring. I'll give you a great example: myself. IT took me about a year and a half to stop butting in and doing the SPL's and LC's jobs. My problme was that I was use to being in those roles, and had not gotten out of that mode. They need to be trained and mentored. In regards to new leaders, SP sums it up. But I would add this: Cub Scout Leaders have a very hard time adjusting from CS mode to BS mode. this is based not only on my experiences, but also conversations with CS leaders who "freak out" when I talk about such concepts as patrol method, youth led, patrols camping away form each other and the adults, letting youth do the teaching, etc.

Don't see why not. Then again one of my green shirts still has "EXPLORING BSA" on it as the venturing strip national was giving away to us old fogeys was several shades too bright since my shirt at the time was "well loved" Also I was given a UK Air Scout beret, which I sometimes wear with the Venturing uniform. To paraphrase the Doctor, Berets are cool.

Nope you don't get to do the ceremony yourself. But around here you get to pick who you want in it, and when you want it. We had one done at an OA event, and if memory serves the LC put some of the stuff on him.

A few comments. 1) let me get this straight, the scout was focusing on getting an appointment, and didn't have time at the get go to do the POR, and now can serve, but the SM is not helping?!?!?!?!? This reminds me of when we had a Life Scout going to his EBOR, but they couldn't meet because it was too long afte rhis birthday for council approval, and had to go to national. Reason for the delay: he went to boot camp and some additional training. LUCKILY the EBOR, did have a "discussion" with the young man instead, and wrote a letter supporting him in his appeal. And I think his actual EBOR was about 2 or 3 minutes, long enough to say Congratulations you made Eagle" and shake hands." 2) A Venture Patrol Leader is the PL for the Venture Patrol,and has nothing to do wiht Venturing. Prior to August 1998, they were call Venture Crew Chiefs, but that got confusing when Venturing came about. 3) Error apparently is in regards to Star and Life as when I looked on SCOUTSTUFF.ORG for the POR patch, they are no longer made. I guess he's a regular PL again

Another reason I've seen merged patrols is b/c the camporee events require a certain number of scouts for events. I admit I do have mixed emotions on this. While it is obvious on the benefit of merging, esp if a patrol would otherwise be disqualified from participating. But it doesn't help over all. EXAMPLE, when I was a patrol leader, all of the scouts in the patrol came form the same school except for me and another Scout. When we had a competition we had to merge with another patrol in order to compete b/c that school had a mandatory Saturday function. BUT on another campout, with the same problem, we had a two man patrol. Were there challenges, yep, but the two of us worked it out, and ragged on the others a wee bit in good natured fun. We both knew that the rest of the patrol would rather be camping than in school.

Powerpoint, POWERPOINT, WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING POWERPOINT! One of the reasons why after talking about it, it was decided to do PM at crackerbarrell instead of at the beginning as in the syllabus. And you are 110% correct on the diplomacy bit. The "most successful troop" with YZ number of Eagles will hopefully be there, and it's gotta be done with tact. And yes it can take years to set up. In regards to money how will it be more expensive? I know food is cheaper in bulk, but one troop worked around it by having a "troop" menu based upon what the patrol brought to the PLC. But I cannot think of any other way. NYLT isn't necessary to make the switch. Is it helpful, esp is the SM is on board, I would say yes based upon my experiences with BA22 and JLTC. But it isn't necessary. One thing mentioned is the following: You've heard the saying, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" You have to show people how what they have isn't working (why they need to change), which if they've put a lot of effort into the program already they're not going to want to hear, so you have to be very diplomatic about it (truthful, but very kind, so kind that they actually want you to keep telling them more instead of shutting you out). So how to you tell a unit with 10-15 Eagles a year that they got it wrong? Do I use their Eagle Retention Rates, i.e. how many Eagles stay involved once they get Eagle? Do I use the number of folks from their unit that are in the OA? Do I describe the experiences of one of their Scouts going through the Ordeal who Eagled shortly thereafter ( that was not a pretty sight.) The particular unit I know of is kinda standoffish. They have an active program and do lots of activities, but it is not boy led, and focuses on advancement. Lots of helicopter parents who only care about their son getting Eagle. And few of their Eagles stay in the troop after their ECOH on Scout Sunday each year.

'Rat Not only NO but HECK NO I did it two times, three if you count my part time work, working for the BSA, and the two times were very stressful on the family. Although I wouldn't mind redoing their literaure, esp the current BSHB and their training literature. But to be honest It would be editing with some updating. You really cannot beat GBB. Back on topic Does anyone remember the booklets national made that focused on a particular Skill Awards, then when they did away with the Skill Awards, the T-2-1 skills on a particular topic? I remember them being in inventory when I worked for supply, but b/c they never sold. I was thinking they may have ideas.

Ok I am hearing some good arguments on why it won't work, now how do you COUNTER those arguments? In case you haven't figured it out, I am using you guys to prep myself for what I have a feeling will be one heck of a cracker barrel/Patrol Method session at IOLS. PLEAE KEEP THEM COMING both teh arguments against, and the counter arguments. Stosh, Good points all. Your post is going to really make me think on responses. One reason for the prep, I aint the fastest commentator. TT, 1) Lord of the Flys. The little savages will burn the place down if we let them. Answer: How do you know ever tried? If you give the scouts responsibilities, give them high expectations, and "Train them, trust them, let them lead," you will be surprised at the results. After all the BSA has been around for 101 years. Something must be working right. (2) Safety. They need constant supervision or there will be a TERRIBLE incident which leads us to... (3) Liability. We will all be sued when a boy dies because we let them do things on their own. Answer: Of course safety is the primary concern of all leaders, that's why their is a Guide to Safe Scouting, lots of training available, and tons of resources for leaders. BUT Scouting provides a chance for Scouts to learn and grow, and part of the learning process is making mistakes. Scouting IS the safe environment for Scouts to try new things, go on adventures, etc with leaders there when needed to provide a safe environment. EXAMPLE, When I was up in Canada as a Scout, it was one of my patrol mates who recognized I got hypothermia, and treated me, not an adult. Although they were there in the background and supervising. (4)Kids today are spoiled. They can barely go to the bathroom without adult supervision. ANSWER: I agree with you, a lot of kids are spoiled. But part of the problem is that parents will not let go. Let's face it when parents are calling their child's college professors and threatening to sue b/c the child got a B instead of an A, the problem is with the adult, not the child. Scouting provides the safe environment for the scout to do things on their own, succeeding, and failing on their own in a safe environment. Wouldn't you rather your son learn how to take care of themselves now, where there is a safety net, than after 4 years in college and they cannot cope? (5) We tried it and it didn't work. (6) We tried and the parents complained that the meetings were too noisy, advancements not getting done... Answer: How long did your try it for, what exactly did you do, and how did you inform the parents? ASIDE: depending upon the answer will base the rest of the answer. (7) Come on it has NEVER been boy-led. The adults manipulate the boys in whatever direction they want. How do you know if you never tried it before? If you call adults advising youth on the possibilities and what planning is involved for an event that changes the mind of the PLC b/c they realize a particular activity isn't feasible manipulation, then yes you are correct. But if you consider the same situation an adult advising his PLC what will be needed for them to do a trip, and they realize it is not feasible or worth then it is not manipulation. EXAMPLE PLC wanted to do something really cool with the Webelos for their overniter, and get some work done for Wilderness Survival MB. SM talked about all that was entailed, how the Webelos wouldn't have all the skills or equipment to do that right away, etc, and maybe come up with something different. And they did. Instead of individual shelters, they would make patrol shelters instead with the webelos being divided amonsgt the patrols. Also folks brought extra stuff with them, just in case it was needed. (8) Boys don't have the time these days. Maybe that worked in the past but today boys are too busy to participate and lead too. How do you know until you do it? And just like any organization, whether it's the Kiwanis, PTO, or Elks, have you noticed a few of the people do the bulk of the work? (9) The Troop method is easier and more efficient. For having Scouts getting rank or teaching classes, maybe. But do the scouts really master the Scouting skills? Also the real goal of Scouting is to make good citizens by allowing our youth to grow physically, mentally, and morally. And let's face it the PM has all the elements of our democratic republic: Scouts are members of patrols in a troop = states in the USA patrols elect PLs to represent the patrol at the PLC = citizens voting for the congress critters, Scouts vote for a SPL to lead the troop = citizens voting for the president etc. Eng 1) Tradition does not equal success. 2) Times change, the program should too. You're right tradition does not equal success, but if something has proven that it is effective for over 100 years, wouldn't you call it successful? I certainly would. As for the times change, program should, it depends. Tweaking a successful program to make it better is one thing. Heck it can be argued that BP tweaked the PM after Brownsea, as he had 2 patrol with 5 members in them, and realised that 6-8 work better. And Green Bar Bill could be said to tweak the program further with his ideas of the SPL and PLC. But sometimes change is very, very bad. Look at the New Coke fiasco. In scouting, we changed the program in the 1970s, and the BSA suffered because of it because they took one element that had made it successful: the OUTING in ScOUTING. As for defining "Work", and would define it as a the process that leads to the successful completion of a goal. While some will argue that Eagle is the goal, those that are really misinformed IMHO, the goal is the creation of good citizens. Short, >> The boys don't know what they want. Have you asked them? Have you even given them some options for them to choose from? Unfortunately in today's society kids are not given any choices to be independent. Heck we are event trying to make 25 years dependent still. So yes you may have a point they don't know what they want because no one has ever allowed them to have an opinion and express themselves. That's why Scouting is important. A good leader can get the scouts to come out of their shells and tell them what they want to do. A good leader works with the youth, aids them and helps them to grow. And part of that is helping them to realize that they do knwo what they want to do. >> The boys can't decide on anything. Well if you are not giving them a chance to think about it, how can they ASIDE rest of conversation woudl eb along lines of the above. >> The boys always make the wrong decisions. So you are telling me that if they decide to jump off a cliff, they would all do it? Also what is wrong if they make wrong decisions that leads to mistakes that forces them to learn? Example, a friend of mine went to Philmont with a SM who had been there many times, and knew very well the trek they chose. When there, the patrol missed a turning point b/c they were not paying attention, and the SM let them continue down the trail they were on until they realized they missed a turn a few hours later. Lesson learned: Gotta pay attention in the woods. >> The boys always choose the same old activities. If the boys like the activities, why not? Or how about suggesting ideas to expand on their favorite activities Example My old troop started doing a wilderness survival weekend as a recruiting tool for Webelos and it worked so well that it became an annual event. They mix up the some of the activities and menus, but it is essentially the same trip,and the boys love it. >> The boys always choose ridiculously overpriced or overly ambitious activities. Have you counseled them on the activity? Have you talked about them earning their way? One of the sad things I miss in the current BSHB is the idea of the scout earning their own way. If they want to do something ambitious, make sure they knwo all the details of it and see if they still want to do it. If so, then work with them to make it happen. Example I went to Jambo and Canada and paid a good bit of it. My leadership provided opportunities to earn my way, and also allowed my mom to help fundraise. And when we were short the last $100 and was backing down (and willing to forfeit all the money i worked for I might add), they were able to help out by getting me a sponsor. >> The boys aren't experienced enough to work without adult supervision. See above >> The experienced boys don't have the right kind of experience to do that activity without adult supervision. And whose fault is that? The role of the SMs is to train the Scouts. Grant you once you got a fully functional PM troop that has a tradition and expectation of the JR leaders giving back and mentoring the younger scouts, you won't have as much work to do training them, you are responsible. So give them TLSC, Heck go old school and use the 3rd ed. SMHB formula to get your scouts up to par. Butyou need to "Train them, trust them, and let them lead. >> We'll just stand back and watch without saying anything. that's not the role of a SM. You need to guide and mentor them. More later

DR, I'll be posting in response to you.later. All, I've tried to spin off 2 times and it aint working. So please go to the Patrol Method thread and respond to "Why the patrol Methods Does NOT Work Because...." to focus on that topic exclusievly. Thanks

Ok I kept trying to spin off and it aint happening. So here we go again. You and I both know the Patrol Method works. Heck it is the cornerstone of Scouting, the very foundation for all the methods and goals and ideals of Scouting. But we have parents, and unfortunately leaders, that do not understand the patrol method and say it doesn't or won't work, when 104 years of Scouting history show otherwise. So what I want to know is the following. A) What are some of the excuses for why it doesn't work that you have heard. B) How you countered those arguments, C) Examples of the PM in action. I'll try to post mine later.

DRM, I can relate to your IOLS quite well. When I did SMF, the outdoor portion,today's IOLS course, was stuff I already knew and had taught as a youth. I'll be honest I have several goals for this course. 1) get them to understand the patrol method. That's to be done by putting them into patrols and modelling it. 2) get them to understand boy led, letting the youth do the work, and essentially letting the scouts grow up. Part of the reason why i am using older youth on staff. 3)make them feel comfortable with the skills, let them know what to look for when their youth are teaching, and let them feel comfortable enough to pratice on their own to master the skills. There is no way you can master these skills in one weekend. 4)Make darn sure the folks know how to use a map and compass wo they won't get lost when their scouts get lost. Or at least they know where they are at, when the scouts get lost. BH, I'll be searching for the document for ideas. I've found some really good websites, and am using some older material,i.e. BA22 syllabus, 2nd ed. BSFB, etc. As far as the first aid at my camp way back when went, we did the skills at the health lodge, then went on hikes where some materials, basically stuff that was found in nature, were availble for use and we were given scenarios to deal with. EDITED: forgot to mention I am spinning off in the Patrol Method section about one session.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Good question. TBH I've never really encountered that problem until I became a CM and had 2 Hindus in my den. What was interesting is that they were the only ones to give me a Christmas present. Anyway when I was working as a pro, one of the other pros was Jewish. He was nuts, in a good sort of way, and at the company Christmas Party, he came out with Santa Claus dressed as "Hannukah Harry," and helped hand out presents from his sack.

Beav is spot on. But here's my comments 1) If memory serves, the SM can assign a leadership project in lieu of a 6 month POR. Is that still the case. 2) The requirments do not state that the 6 months in a POR have to be consectutive, so depending upon when he got Life, he may have met the requirement already. 3) In regards to Den Chiefs, while it is good to have them for the entire year, some packs can use someone with some outdoor expereince for the Webelos Dens. That may be an option. BUT being a DC is major, stress MAJOR, committment. Good luck.

So Basement, please consider Eagle92's great idea of having those beads presented at a pack meeting. Ask some cubs to be part of the ceremony. They'll get a kick out of it and never forget it. DDDUUUUUUHHHHHHHHH Why didn't I think of using the Cubs to present the beads?!?!?!?!!? Good one '77!

BDP, While he may not care about the beads, he's been through to much garbage not to get them. He has tried to provide a quality program not only for his unit but the district,and they keep making him jump through hurdle after hurdle after hurdle. If he's done half the stuff he says he has, and I have no reason to doubt him, then he deserves them. As for the shouting, I know how some hard of hearing, hard headed old fogeys can be, and sometimes shouting is neccessary. Sometimes a swift kick in the butt is what is really needed And that "DO LET THEM WIN!" should read "DO NOT LET THEM WIN!" ( bold to note change. still shouting though )

First Aid and Nation is very doable within a month. Again depending upon what partials are, he may be bale to finish those. One thing as mentioned with the holidays coming, some organizations have rearranged their meeting schedules.

I do not have much experience with the restrictive diets. But one on of my co workers has recently developed reactions to foods she has eaten all her life, and the specialists have no clue why. She has to keep an epipen on her at all times, has a couple stashed around the office and her home, and instructed the non-clincial folks in the department on how to use one, and has left written (and possibly notarized)instructions that if she goes into shock, any of us can give her an injection and take her down the hall ASAP.

Well the only vegan scouts I've ever met were 1 Aussie, and the 2 Tigers in my den who were Hindus. My vegan expereince was not scout-related, but was with a job I had. Part of the training they did was take the new hires on a week long canoe trip in FL. One of the trainers, and two participants were vegans, and forced the issue on us. At least they let us have MnMs in our trail mix. Yes they wouldn't eat MnMs b/c they use animal fat for the Ms.

Base, CALL THE COURSE DIRECTOR NOW AND MAKE SURE YOU GET THE BEADS! I am shouting at you b/c you have worked too hard, and overcome to many obstacles, and dealt with to much garbage to give up now. DO LET THEM WIN! As for a beading ceremony, I say do it at a place where you can share it with the folks you did it for: at a pack event. Good luck!

Moose, Well considering that the 2 one day sessions are in the syllabus and approved by national, I don't think they can say no to them since unlike the test out, there is an actual schedule put out by national on it.

Being an old fogey AND once a very picky eater, the case of picky eaters have been a round a long time. But now folks are being coddled. Heck some folks are even forcing the food issue. Back in my day, it was eat what we have or eat some peanut butter sandwiches. Getting tired of peanut butter sandwiches one campout, I eventually started eating as I was famished. Mom was so amazed that she even asked the leaders what did they do to her son But nowadays people are coddled so much that they do what they want. Heck I've had one trip that the menu was forced upon a group by 3 individuals out of about 15 to twenty. Long story short, the 2 true vegans and a "semi vegan" demanded and got their way: no meat would be served for a week long canoeing trip. Ticked a bunch of us off, but they forced the issue and won. Kinda helps if the trainer is one of the vegans. Only consolation was that were told that we would eat at an all you can eat buffet once we finished the trip and on the way home. Long story short, the buffet was closed by the time we got there and we had to order pizzas instead, but again we were limited to the number we could buy for the group and which ones we could buy. So 2 pizzas of the 6 or 7 bought had meat on it: one pepperoni and one meat lovers. The "semi vegan" then proceeded to eat some of the pepperoni because "I love pepperoni." I wanted to strangle the girl. And there was a lot of resentment about her over the pizza.

If you carry a copy of the IOLS syllabus on your thumbdrive, you might be an IOLS SM. From my 2001 printing page 11 states the following: Schedule for Two One-Day Programs This schedule divides the sessions into two one-day programs, preferably on Saturdays.... First Saturday is 8AM - 7PM Second Saturday is 8AM - 8:15PM Overnight camping is not required.(This message has been edited by eagle92)(This message has been edited by eagle92)

SSS, You ain't kidding about the vintage books I'm going back to the local museum to reclain the rest of my collection that they used for a scouting display. The website I liked above has some great info, and I've received permission to edit it. The very first thing I did was put in a backpacking quote from the 2nd ed. BSFB. Luckily, or unluckily as the case may be, that book is "so well loved" the cover is torn off, pages are dog eared, and notes from me and my cousin are in it. Not really museum quality, so I didn't lend it out. But I'll take it over the 4th ed. Don't remember much about the 3rd edition, but the 4th can't touch the 2nd ed.

If you got the time and talent for it, how about a traditional scout staff. PM me if you want a page with all the things you can put on it, i.e. measurements, scale, emergency symbols, etc.

Ok a few things before going into plans. 1) A site I just found tonite that I have found very beneficial to putting together info. http://www.bsatroop780.org/index.html These guys have an awesome website from I've seen so far, and I hope they let me copy and edit some of the PDFs they created on Scout skills. I hate to say it KUDU, but they are giving your website a run for the money as my favorite scout skills website 2) Base, I would hate for you to drive a long ways and not help out with gas. Plus I may have my eco-con guy. T 3)SP, No problem, and it sounds like something I already have, but for a differnt training. 4)SSS, MINDREADER. Ok here are my plans so far. Participants arrive, get put into patrols and are shaken down, group gear divvied up, etc. This is the Packing part of that module. Issue their scout staves, talk about hiking safety, hiking techniques, and give very introductory compass intro. They are then handed cards with bearings to their patrol campsites. Staffers accompany them. In the campsites, the selecting a campsite module goes into play as well as hints to make it a bit more comfortable. Also so some supplies will be in the campsite waiting for them. Once they are done, they continue shooting bearing learning where the other patrols are before returning to the HQ for cracker barrel. During cracker barrell Patrol method will be discussed, info on the rest of the weekend, and general CB discussions. After breakfast Flag session goes into play. First with the entire training troop, then split into patrols to work amongst themselves, hopefully with students teaching, but staffers on the sidelines. Then the session on Orienteering. If folks cannot teach, then we got staff to do it. GPS, we don't need no stinking GPS, we got compasses and USGS survey maps Also the facility we have does have a compass course already working out. Also may have a Patrol Challenge where each patrol makes a compass course for the other patrols to do for fun. Then 4 hours will be spent doing the 2 nature modules and lunch. One of the the things I remember doing after reading my old BA22 syllabus, is coming up with a nature display, and I think that will be worthwhile. Then comes First Aid. I know we have a few students who can teach the module, just need to remind them to 'adapt, improvise, and overcome," as one of the future students couldn't remember how to make a litter with 2 poles and a blanket since he is so use to the fold out ones and gurneys with his job. And again this will be by patrol Our focus will be the very basics and I will be offering them the opportunity to take a AHA Heartsaver FA/CPR/ AED at a late date for certification. I agree with Outdoor I view it as very important. But I admit I do not like how AHA teaches it, i.e. wathcing a video and little hands on/ interaction. Once every one get an understanding of FA, we'll be working in patrols for the next 3 hours on wood tools, building fires, and cooking dinner. Hopefully we won't need to use any first aid at this point. Forgot to add, the different patrols will be using compass bearing to go to different locations to do the sessions Only time they will be togther will be for the wood tools and dinner. One of the campsites was hit really bad by Irene, and there is a lot of work to do there. Idea is to help clean out that campsite, and use the wood from clearing out for fire building and cooking. After dinner is pioneering, campfire, and Cracker barrell which doubles as our Q & A session. Morning is Scouts' Own and LNT with everyone. then break camp, closing flag ceremony, and dismissal. As you can see I am trying to reinforce PM with the groups doing alot of patrol sessions. Also trying to do hands on with compass courses, using bearing to get from place to place, having supplies to do first aid instead of watching a video, etc. Also trying to reinforce the concept of "Train them, Trust them, let them lead," By having older Scouts, Venturers, and young ASMs actually rotate around with adults acting in youth roles, but staying out of the way unless the adults start screwing around and not listen to the youth. I am in the process of making both a book for participants, as well as a staff book. Looking at the current BSHB, I was disappointed in the insufficient , or lack of information on some topics. Hence the use of Kudu's website, and the other one cited above. So what am I missing, beside not delving more in depth on the Webelos side of things?