Eagle92

SP, The Order is a brotherhood of cheerful servive, the ones who not only strive to live the Scout Oath and Law, but serve their fellow Scouts by givign back to them, not only in the unit, but in the council, and beyond. One of the best ways of providing service is to maintain scout camps. The OA is one reason why the Boys Scout camps I've been to and worked at have been significantly cheaper than other, comparable camps. OA members provide their time, talents, and resources to maintaing camps. As for picking up a broom and dustpan, heck that's easy and I'd do it in a heartbeat. I've busted butt clearing out a COPE area all day and got dehydrated from the fire we made. That was a birthday to remember. PLUS I got to run that course that summer as one fo the first two COPE directors. I've been wet from rain and covered in mud b/c of a project I was on at one Ordeal, and will forever be appreciative of it b/c that event was when, as a pro, I was really welcomed and accepted by the volunteers in attendance (and unknowingly ticked off a council exec board member in attendance when he commented on my dirty appearance, and I quoted Chilantakoba Lodge 397's unoffical motto "a clean Arrowman is a lazy Arrowman" at his immaculately clean uniform). And wore a tear or two down my face when I saw the destruction of my camp after a hurricane, and resolved to the best of my ability to do whatever I could to help fix it. And that included being knee deep in "quicksand" trying to dig out a busted up Zodiak that ran aground, was punctured in multiple places, and had to be dug up. Again using a dustpan and broom would be a snap. Platy, While I wish that was the case, I know of folks who work a lot behind the scenes, putting in untold number of hours to get things done, and few folks know about it AND THEY WANT IT THAT WAY (caps for emphasis). I've met youth who put their time, talent, and resources into organizing and running events, taking months to plan things, and few people realize what is actually involved. They might be seen only when assignements and equipment are being passed out. They might be seen only when a problem arises and they fix it. And I have met a few who just see it as a job needing to be done. In the best example of that, one adult (he had just turned 21 prior to the Vigil Committee)was constantly behind the scenes, making public appearances only at meal times in which he was passing out food, and at the campership patch auction in which he was trading, and donating a few patches for the auction. Outside of those times few people saw what he was doing.

I have to third what others have said: there is no requirement for 2 deep leadership FROM A UNIT (caps for emphasis) by the OA. What my chapter has done in the past is meet at a convenient McDonald's buy dinner there, and drive as a chapter to OA events. This is especially good when we have candidates.

In regards to commitment, all I asked of both adults and youth is the following back when I was a CA. 1)Try to attend 1 work event and 1 fun event each year. I don't care if the work events are at the main camp 1.5 hours away, when the chapter does something at the local camp .5 hours away, or one of our community service projects, just help keep our camps running. As for the fun events, i don't care if it's a party, fellowship, conclave or NOAC, just have some fun. 2) When you show up at the district camporee, bring ya sash and when all Arrowmen are asked to come forward for the Call Out, come out. OH and if we ask ya to get a candidate form your troop and present him, please do. 3)Attend the Candidate Information Session and Chapter Social in February. 4) let us know what's going on with ya. Can some scouters go all out for OA, absolutely as I was one of them. But I also didn't have any unit responsibilities. Now that I am a DL, the unit is my #1 priority. If the council wouldn't schedule OA events simultaneously with CS events, I'd be at more OA events, and I know of a Chapter that wold be willing to help staff some CS events.

No tats here, due to a variety of reasons. 1) I hate pain. 2) After having an "Easter egg" size infection from an unclean needle (doc put the needle down to answer the phone, picked it up and gave me the vaccination)that had me in the ER for one procedure, then weekly procedures in a different doctor's office for about 3-5 weeks, I HATE NEEDLES! (caps for both emphasis and shouting, I HATE NEEDLES that much ). 3) Remember the story of "Gimlet Eye" Butler who had a large EGA on his chest, only to have the artwork essentially ruined when he got shot. 4) Knew someone who had a tat with a girlfriend's name on it, and he always told me "DON'T GET A TATTOO" (Caps for him shouting at me). Now do I think they look cool, some of them. I've seen some that look freaking awesome and some look very horrible.

I sent you a PM with instructions. I have the BA22 syllabus, annotated, and a JLTC syllabus.

Well doing a quick lit search i found this in regards to AZ http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2011/01/04/20110104arizona-law-standardizes-knife-regulations.html Apparrently anything with a sharp blade used for cutting is a knife, and is legel irregardles of size. So that two-handed Scottish claymoe is a knife under AZ law and is legal. What I found is this interesting stat near the bottom of the article Ritter's statistics show that knives are used only occasionally as a weapon. Fewer than 1 percent of crimes involved knives, he said. And most of those knives come from the kitchen, he said. "They usually stem from domestic-violence issues, and what is available in a domestic-violence situation?" Ritter said. "Oftentimes, it is the kitchen knife."

Base, No way will the pro's man the keg for membership; that will get them arrested for helping underage drinking. But they will not only man the keg, but also play bartender for FOS pledges. And yes, I've seen it happen.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

So resteraunts, school cafeterias, your own home ad nauseum, all have "deadly weapons" in them?!?!?!?! I hope you have permits I'm sorry that society has come to this ridiculousness. Knives are tools, just like a baseball bat, screwdriver, fork, pencil, chairs, etc.

SR, I agree with you 110% And I think your dream is every CA's dream; I know it was mine back in the day. I personally liked my old lodge's way of doign things. Yep they had a different border for Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil for the most part, special event patches being the exception, but there were no restrictions on them, and there wasn't a big deal about the different colored borders.

SR, Gotcha and understand 110% I got a few ideas to solve the problem. 1) Have photos attached to the applications. 2) If the individual has a nickname, use it. 3) If you can't use photos, ask questions, or if a youth write the questions for him to ask, about the individual. We had an outstanding adult, just turned 21, who was one of the folks "behind the scenes" busting his tail to make sure everything went off without a hitch. The guy had about 5 folks nominate him, but the youth couldn't place him as he has served behinds the scenes. Luckily he was an adult, and when I asked a few pointed questions (isn't he the one who does XYZ, ABC, JKL, and IOU?)for clarification on who he is and what he does, you could see the lightbulbs going off. And that's when I suggested to the Vigil chairman to have photos of those nominated at the committee meeting. Similar reaction to another adult. He is so well known by his nickname, that when his real name was used for the nomination, no one, youth and adults alike, knew who he was. It was only at the end of the nominatin letter, when his nickname was used did folks have the lightbulb go off.

SR, Yep folks who are not active in the chapter and lodge do get Vigil, but sometimes it's for other service to Scouting. A good friend of mine, who got Vigil with me, was not active for 2 years with his chapter b/c of college/military service. He contributed by working summer camp staff during the summers when he was available.

I was told the purpose of the 7 hours of service in order to buy a flap had several reasons. 1) Encouraged and rewarded folks who attended OA work events 2) Discourage "flap wearers," i.e. those folks who "sash and dash." 3)Discourage trading of lodge flaps (but in reality this had the opposite effect sicne the flap's value has increased)

Skip, BSA is not like the UK or other European scout associations where alcohol is permitted. You bring a pint to a BSA event, they will kick you out. Biggest shock I had was when I first showed up at Kingsdown Scout Camp, which was the staff BBQ dinner nite, and pints of bear and some wine was out to drink at dinner.

From someone who dealt with a similar problem, I can tell you be prepared for the negative consequences when you report it. If the new family told you this, I would write a letter to the SE stating such and then drop it. let it be in his court. But keep a copy of the letter. Sometimes folks are warned about the alcohol and are given a second chance. In my situation, that's what's happened, and I was persona non grata for the rest of summer camp because I reported it.

But more so with the weapons ... I would be pretty ticked if anyone gave my kid a weapon without my prior knowledge and approval. So your kids don't get any presents? I hate to say it, but just about anything can be used as a "weapon." A baseball bat, baseball, forks, pencils, ad nauseum. The remote control helicopter's battery can be used as a bomb to explode. Name something, and it can be sued as a "weapon."

2Cub, Good question. My understanding, and I stress UNDERSTANDING so if someone knows better please let me know, is that the national insignia for the OA is the sash, not the flap. Thus the sash represents membership in the OA. The lodge flap represents membership in the local lodge. As such each lodge can set their own criteria, as long as it is within National policy. When the policy to remove distinctive borders came out, national stated that restrictions on flaps were allowed, although discouraged. From the 07-8 Operations Update The Order of the Arrow policy on lodge pocket flaps appears on page 58 of the Order of the Arrow Handbook. Several clarifications have been added to this policy. The following revised text will appear in future printings of the Handbook: "Lodge pocket flap. Cloth lodge emblems (flaps) are made available by most lodges. National policy requires that these pocket flap patches be made of, and embroidered on, cloth, and must be of a size and shape so as to cover the right breast pocket flap and not extend beyond the outer edge of the uniform pocket flap. They usually show the lodge name and totem. All OA patches must include BSA or the Boy Scout emblem in their patch designs. Chapter or clan flaps are not permitted. There will be no honor distinction denoted by the flap or flap border. Beading of flaps is against uniform and insignia policy. The national Order of the Arrow committee recommends that no restrictions be placed on the purchase of lodge flap patches. [emphasis mine} Members may only wear the lodge pocket flap of the lodge where their dues are paid. If the lodge has been certified as a National Quality Lodge, members of the lodge may wear a Quality Lodge pin on the pocket flap. Only the most recent pin awarded may be worn, and it must be mounted against the left vertical border of the flap." The clarifications are in the last sentence of the first paragraph and in the third paragraph. These policy clarifications are effective immediately. On a different note. I'm wondering how many lodges have 2 different flaps: one for the khaki shirts, and one for the green shirts?(This message has been edited by Eagle92)(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

In regards to the different colored borders. the purpose for them I was told was to tell who is what when they are not wearing a sash. It wasn't about prestige, "I'm better than you," etc, but to recognize who was an OA member and whether they were Ordeal, Brotherhood, or Vigil when no sash was present. In regards to no flap when folks become members, lodge bylaws state that service hours are done by members. And people are still sore at the removal of the borders. Now one thing the lodge does have are "trader flaps" ones that have no service hour restrictions. They are not suppose to be worn, and to be honest I really do not see them on uniforms, although I may just buy a few next time. Also some special events have "participant flaps" and "supporter flaps" Support ones are more expensive, and help the scouts going to the event. I haven't seen folks wear any supporter ones, but I've seen participant ones worn, heck I have one on one uniform shirt. Calico's last para is spot on. Heck I know a few Vigils who as soon as they find out they will be at an event, email the youth in charge, sometimes the advisor if the youth's email is not available, and want to know where they can help out at. 2Cub, Right now they do not get a flap in their new member packets, instead gettign the OA ribbon. Next OA Ordeal they attend they can now get a flap, or if they go to conclave, NOAC, or Jambo, they can get one of those flaps. Again I don't like it, and I have, when I could, given out a flap or two to new members who busted butt during the Ordeal. It's not much, but I try.

Ok I spun this thread b/c it was hijacking a thread. In regards to different colored borders on flaps, I admit the lodges I've been in save 1 had them, and I was pretty upset when national did away with them as I saw it as a tradition in the OA. Yes I agreed with the youth who said, "If you can't have different colored borders, then why do we have different sashes as they represent the same thing." Now I didn't go as far as to turn my sash inside out, or remove it completely in protest of the national policy at the lodge meeting as many were doing, but I could understand some of the feelings. But over time I changed my views on the topic. I met to many folks who were ticked off not because it was a tradition, but b/c they wanted that Brotherhood or Vigil patch. It seemed as if the only reason for becoming Brotherhood or Vigil was for a stupid patch. That's not what the OA is about. So I am slowly in the process of converting from the old honor specific flaps to the new non-specific ones. It's taking some time to convert all my uniforms b/c there are service hours restrictions on the flaps. More on that in a bit. Now in regards to giving the flaps out to new Arrowmen, I an 110% for it, and was one of the few adults who was working with the youth who wanted to change the lodge's position on the matter. As I stated in the original thread, it was a slow, tedious process, not only b/c of tradition, but b/c it was viewed as a means to make Brotherhood goals, and of course the patch collectors. But when national forced the issue on honor specific flaps, for better or worse, it caused a reaction that caused even some who were for new members getting flaps to change their position. In this respect it's back to square one. I do know of a few adults who will give away flaps to new members, and that's another reason for my slow conversion process. Now I do have mixed emotions on service hour restrictions. I do like it better than some lodges' restriction of one or two flaps per lifetime. And I like the policy a heck of a lot better than the one proposed by the patch collectors in my lodge to restrict it to one flap available for purchase to each person at each lodge event, i.e. about 5 per year. As mentioned in the other thread some folks cannot make lodge events for a variety of events: conflicts with their unit, conflict with another district or council event, etc. But most Arrowmen I know have no problem doing chapter workdays or service projects. But I can see the possibility of some folks coming to another OA work event just to get a flap. But in reality I haven't seen or heard of it. Usually those who come back and get a flap stay a spell and have fun.

If it's Ok with folks, I'm spinning off the flap issue. back on topic. You got to have a program that attracts people. You gotta have folks enthusiastic, and you gotta have some fun with the work. Word of mouth is the best way to market, and if Arrowmen are having fun, they will stay, at least until they leave for college and/or military.

Since I've never dealt with this before, I decided to come to the experts. I should be getting my dutch oven in this week. It's a preseasoned Lodge 6 qt. Question is this: do I need to strip off the factory seasoning and reseason it myself, or is it good to go. I've looked around and hear both sides, but again comign to the experts.

OGE, There are no more Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil distinctive flaps as national got rid of them in 2008 or thereabouts. 1 flap for all members, although there are special event flaps out there. My lodge was not happy with this decision. Instead of a flap, new members get the universal ribbon instead. Do I like it, not really, but the youth have decided. And trust me the youth will not decide otherwise at this time. EDITED: the national policy change ticked off the members that much. The debate over issuing an Ordeal Flap, when national allowed them, came very close to being changed in my lodge as a small group of youth Arrowman had been pushing for an Ordeal Flap for new members for several years, and it was getting closer and closer to coming about. But when national decided to do away with individual borders, that set matters back. None of the youth liked that policy, and when the lodge voted on the by-laws to change the lodge flap policy to conform with national policy, no youth voted for the change, lodge officers abstained from voting since they too disagreed with the policy. Again the LA had to step in and say there is no choice in the matter, the by-laws will be changed to coincide with national policy, which is also in the by-laws. In essence the vote really didn't matter, and that further ticked off the youth.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

OGE, The youth of the lodge as a whole voted to do away with Ordeal flaps, and only have Brotherhood, Vigil, and special event flaps (i.e. Jambo, NOAC, conclave, etc). Rationale I got from them was that it encouraged folks to get Brotherhood. Also all flaps had a 7 hour service requirement. This was prior to national mandating that there be no distinctive border lodge flaps, which ticked off the voting members of my lodge (an aside, when the issue of changing the lodge by-laws to reflect the national madate came up to a vote, the youth rejected the national mandate. LA had to change the by-laws by fiat). With no distinctive borders now, the lodge still kept the restriction that MEMBERS (caps for emphasis) must do 7 hours of cheerful service to buy a flap. So new members still do not get flaps when inducted. They have to come to another Ordeal, or workday to get a flap. I may not like this policy, but every single time someone brings up the idea of changing it, the youth reject the change. The last time I was observed a vote, the idea of issuing 1 flap at every OA event to each participant as part of the fee was rejected; the youth want to keep the service hours requirement. So in my lodge at least I do not see this happening. Also there was some loosening up of when to wear the OA sash in the late 1980s and 1990s. Beleive it or not, you could wear the OA sash with the "professional uniform" of navy blazer, white shirt, etc.

SP, Every lodge and chapter is different and what may work in one area may not work in another. I saw that b/c we have done what you said and our numbers have lacked in the past. Here are some of the things we did in my neck of the woods in addition to what you suggested. 1) Got really motivated youth and adults that really pumped up OA spirit. If you don't have motivated and spirited members, how can you be appealing. 2) Gotta do more than just Work Work Work. One of the biggest challenges I faced as OA CA was that one of our fundraisers and events was the district Webeloree, which coincided with with a fun OA event: conclave. In about 10 years, no one save a chapter chief who turned lodge chief had attended conclave b/c of this event. After 2 years of begging and pleading to change the date which the activities chair refused to do, the person who took over the event said "Yes we'll move the event b/c I want to go to conclave." That was a big morale booster. 3) You gotta have fun activities. We've had pool parties, tours of military bases, etc. 4) You got to be visible. This was one of the biggest challenges with adults b/c historically OA members didn't wear OA sashes except at OA events. Add to that that my lodge did not have an Ordeal Member flap, only Brotherhood and Vigil, and you didn't know who OA members were. So the youth decided to include normal district events as OA events, hence more visibility. Some resistance from some adults, but it worked. 5) if you have a ceremony, drum, or dance team, do it right. We had a drum and really did well for a while, performing at various events through out the district.

Mr. B. Long story short the modern Powwow is more "pan Indian" than tribal specific. It's my understanding that the modern powwow descended from the various Wild West shows, and really took off after WWII when folks would visit their buddies for different local powwows and society dances, and then brought them home so to speak. Although I'm willing to bet you see few to none Southern Straight dancers at Northern powwows that are done by tribes that have a history with Northern Taditional and vice versa. Usually you can spot tribal differences if you know what to look for,i.e. certain designs, patterns, and colors in the regalia. Now for their are private events that do occur that you have to be invited to attend,i.e. a Ponca Hethuska Society dance. These private events are cultural specific. But some have lost elements of their culture, or their culture has morphed. One example is language. I know the Eastern Band of the Cherokee teach Tslagi in their schools, and if memory serves, have the street names written in the language as well. The Lakota are trying to preserve the language, and one thing they are doing si using the game SCRABBLE to teach it to the younger generation. But some have lost the language. I know the Houma speak French instead of their original language.

A few comments. 1) I will readily admit I am a selfish prig of a leader at the moment as my #1 concern is making sure my oldest is having fun and learning things in Cub Scouts. #2 concern is for the rest of the Cubs in his den that I am den leader for. #3 is the Cubs in my pack. And on down the line to district and council. I admit when my pack was having some challenges last year, I was thinking of transferrring to another pack, b/c my son was not havng as much fun as he wished, plus some of the headaches we were having. Luckily a new CM and CC turned things around, but again my #1 concern is my son. 2) that will change a bit next year. Middle son will be a TC, and I will be his TCDL. And while I will have some concerns about oldest, Middle son will be #1 priority, followed by oldest at #2 and middle son's den at #3 on down the line. Personally I think oldest is ready to do his own thing, heck he already has to a degree at CSDC since I'm not following him around, and my only concern is finding a replacement for me as DL. My ADL has been asked to be ACM for 2012, and CM for 2013. Very good choice in my opinion. 3) Scouting needs to be fun for everyone, adults included. Are there challenges, yep. Are there situations that may stress you out, yep. Are there times you want to rip your hair out, yep. But those moments should be few and far between, or something that can readily be laughed at once they are done. IF YOU ARE NOT HAVING FUN,THEN YOU NEED TO RECONSIDER YOUR INVOLVEMENT AS A LEADER. (caps for emphasis) 4)If your involvement at the council/district level s interefering with how you work with your scouts, i.e. taking you away to much, stressing you out, etc. remove the source of the stress and focus on what is important: your scouts. Can it be hard, yes. Will folks still look to you for info and to be incharge, yes. But you need to get rid of the stress and focus on your scouts. 5)If your unit responsibilities are taking you away from your child, and it is a problem, you need to step away from that responibility and focus on your child. Best example I can give is a lifelong scouter, even when he had no kids in the program, who was a DL, and CM with a pack while oldest was a CS, and is now again an ASM. His younger son has some special needs, and when he joins Cub Scouts in June, dad will NOT be in any leader position with the pack in order to give 110% of his time to his son.