Eagle92

OK I'll bite. Yes I have used the $/scout. Purpose is to let folks know how much it really costs the council per scout to have a program. And yes some of the income comes from events fees, scout shops items, etc. But a big chunk does come from FOS. When I did FOS as a DE, while we did have a family campaign goal, we didn't break it down by units. We knew some units could not even give a dollar to FOS, while another unit's FOS donations would be considered in other campaign levels due to the amounts( actually that unit was not suppose to have an FOS presentation at all but I was informed after the fact). And of course everything in between. When I do family FOS now, I still mention the figure because I want folks to know how much is spent providing the camps, program materials, etc. BUT I also donot expect everyone to give that amount. A line I stole from a church's fundraising campaign, "Don't give until it hurts, Give until it feels good." And my intention is just that, I don't want anyone to feel obligated to give, but if you can please do.

Last I heard, no one, not NARA, not LOC, and not DOD could do anything about loss of info due to format change, except to advise updating info regulary. However when I was in grad school for the MLS, there was a proposal by NARA and DOD, not too sure about LOC's involvement, to create a mainframe that could not only update info from out of date programs, but also have the ability to integrate newer technology into the system as it came out. Don't know how far it went, but if memory serves the proposal was over $1 billion dollars. TT, I'ld not only put copies of disks inthe bank, but also mail copies to family members. that way if things happen the backup are out of town.

Sorry to get into this late, but I'll review my archiving books for more info as it has been a while, and I am no longer archiving. Some ideas I do remember. 1) With hard copy photos, write information IN PENCIL on the back of each photo. Ink in pens fade over time, and sometimes can ruin photos. Lead pencils avoid the problem. 2) If you are goign the electronic route make sure you do the following: A) USE .GIF, .TIF and other "non-loosey" files like .jpeg. A "loosey" file takes up less space, but everytime you open it up, you lose pixals, which over time ruins the picture. B)Make duplicate copies and store some offsite. If memory serves, the archival standard is 4 copies: one to work with, a backup to work with, one in storage, and one in storage off-site. What I've done is mailed out multiple copies of photo disks to family members, and one set is in the bank. C) This can be expensive, you want a very good, quality disk to store the info on, I believe one that has elements of gold on the disk. I admit I haven't done this due to expense, but the NC archives uses these disks, and it's recommended in the literature. D) Whenever a new format comes out, UPDATE YOUR RECORDS TO THE NEW FORMAT ASAP!!!!!!!!! This is very critical as if you don't and the program you originally put your photos in is not available, you are in trouble. True stories, there is an entire warehouse of information from one of NASA's probes inthe 70s that no one is able to access the information on because the program to read it is unavailable. Also it is easier to obtain and read records from every war and coflict in US history prior to the late 1980s, than it is to read Desert Shield/Storm records, b/c those records are on electronic formats that are no longer in use. Heck even the forms on micro film and fiche are easier to access if there is no reader than the Desert Shield/Storm records, all you need is a light and a magnifying glass and you can read the microfilm/fiche. Personally when transferring my files from my old computer to the new one a few years back, I was just barely able to transfer some of the older pictures because of older programs. And some of my documents have been lost as I was unable to transfer them to a new format.

While I knew about the anti-Catholic bias, I never encountered it until I moved to NC. One of the benefits of New Orleans is a very strong Catholic heritage: what other city would have 3 Catholic churches on the same intersection. Plus the parochial school system has 86 schools with 40,372 student, not all of whom are Catholic, you got a heavy Catholic influence. An aside, when my mom came and visited me the first time in NC and saw the church I attended, she was surprised at the size of it because, "it's smaller than the chapel at [my high school].

Base, Sorry you're right. I was projecting my pack's problem last year, mea culpa. Moose, Actually the Spanish Catholics arrived in North America before the Protestant English did, October 1492 to be exact. Although the pagan Norse got here before the Spanish, and of course the Native Americans beat everyone to North America. . Seriously though, even though Maryland was founded as a Catholic refuge, Catholics have faced discrimination historically in the USA. Lots of problems when LA Purchase came about between the Catholic French and Spanish and the Protestant Americans (hence the reason why medians are stilled called "Neutral Grounds" in NO,LA today). If memory serves other areas that had large Catholic populations had challenges when they became part of the US. The largest waves of Catholic immigration to the US started with the 1840s Irish Potato Famine. Irish faced heavy discrimination along the East coast. One reason why they started moving west fast. They were followed by the Italians and Germans. As to why JFK was the first Catholic president, lots of distrust towards Catholics still was rampant in the the 1960s. It was a very big deal, possibly a bigger deal than Mitt Romney being Mormon, when he ran for president, as only one other Catholic had ever run before. Trust me I have seen the bias first hand. I've had that incident above. I've heard commentary on playgrounds, I've heard it talking to my neighbor, and I've seen the shock on people's faces when they find out I'm Catholic. Sometimes it's worth hearing the bigotry when you see that look of shock, but most of the time it's not.

In regards to Catholic Church and attendance at mass, I guess it depends. I only remember 2 times going to mass during a weekend trip. Once when the IH of a brother troop came to visit us and did a mass in the field (we were about 30 minutes away from their church), and once when it was a 7 hour trip home. And although no one was required to attend mass, everyone did, including the non-Catholics. But a big part of that is most of the members of the troop attended parochial school, and part of going is attendandce at the school masses. And that was being with 6 COs who were either the church, or the Knights of Columbus. Now summer camp was a different story. Knights of Columbus councils in the BSA council were the ones that built the chapels at the camp. They also paid the salary of a Catholic seminarian to be the camp chaplain for the summer.

'Bear, Take it in steps with your son. I started out with F-Troop then it moved on to Davy Crocket series, and now the kids play with cap guns. Sure they like Jedi, Bakugan et al, buthtey do play with their cap guns too.

BSA, I go ahead and respond to those comments I can. OA members don't know. They are not anthropologists. Actually some Arrowmen are anthropologists, archeologists, and historians. I know someone who last time I talked to him was almost finished his MA or MS, and was looking forward to his PhD in anthropology. He got his interest in anthropology from studying NA culture and dancing. Since I talked to him over 5 years ago, I am assuming I can call him "Doctor" next time I see him. He's active in the OA: doing seminars, and teaching classes at NOAC, etc. Another Arrowman I know was an archeology grad student with an interest in NA culture, again from being in the OA. When I met him, he had a dream job: he was teaching Archeology MB at summer camp and doing some advance work for a possible dig. The school had been trying to get permission to do a dig at the camp. When Archeology MB came out, he got permission from the council to do some preliminary work as part of the MB program. So not only did he get paid, he also got college credit since it was a field project. I know I was history undergrad and took a course on LA colonial with an emphasis on NA-European relations. When I went to grad school for the history MA, I took a seminar I course on US colonial history, and focused on NA-European relations. Did a whole bunch of research on that and was planning to do the thesis on it, when it was announced that the prof doing the course was not going to offer the seminar II course, nor advise students as she been promoted within the department and had new responsibilities. And guess where that interest came from...Scouting and the OA. OA people are helping native tribes regain lost culture? That's ridiculous. Please name the tribes doing this. I will definitely call their tribal office and ask them if they have sought out help from the Boy Scouts on understanding their own heritage and laugh my head off in unison with the person at the other end of the line. United Houma Nation, and a book on their history mentions non-Native helping them out is The Houma People of Louisiana: A story of Indian Survival by Bowman, Greg and Curry-Roper, Janel. There was a journal article that came out prior to their book by these two authors that was copied and passed out at the 1994 NOAC. While they did not seek OA and BSA help i the matter, nor are the OA and Boy Scouts are not mentioned by name in the article and book, a lot of folks who have helped them in this process have strong Scouting and OA connections. When you call them, make sure to ask them about Jack Heriad. He's an Arrowman who produces Whispering Wind Magazine and a founder of LIHA. He's been one of those who have helped the Houma out. Also when I was planning on doing a thesis on Houma-European relations, the real reason for it was to try and find any possible information that may have been missed or overlooked. Had a good discussion with one of their former council members on the research I did, but the bulk of it was pretty much already known. And a lot of other have also helped out. I cringe every time I see OA doing native stuff. I've been in it a long time. I love the service. I love the people. The ceremonies, drums, and dancing make me embarrassed for the people doing it just like watching people fall on their faces in fail videos makes me embarrassed for those people. Yes I can relate to a degree as I too cringe when I see poor ceremony teams. Even folks who know better sometimes don't do the right thing in regards to ceremony teams, and part of it is expense, part of it is that alot of folks want the "Hollywood Indian" and will confront you if you do not meet the stereotype, and some of it is pure laziness on the ceremony team. But when you see a ceremony team that does their homework....WOW. As for the singers and dancers, well if the NAs I dance with at powwows are OK with me in regalia and dancing, then what the problem? Ditto with the drum that has accepted 2 of our Arrowman onto their drum, If they don't have a problem why should anyone else? (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

My thoughts. 1) Get more leaders. Talk to the parents and get them involved. A CS pack is ver leader intensive, even a small one. 2)Tell them where the resources are to get the pack running. Thankfully BSA doesn't say " Thank you for being a leader, bye bye." Training, resource books etc. 3)Help them come up with an ACTIVE schedule. Kids want camping, hiking, etc. 4) Communictaion. All the planning and work won't come together for success unless you communicate. 5)Find out history of unit/CO in regards to the community. The one time I did what MIB did, step in to help a pack out, it was as a DE chartered by my church. I stepped in b/c my Knights of Columbus council were the COs and I didn't want it to fail. Problem with the unit was a lack of parents at the church willign to be leaders, and a very strong anti-Catholic bias inthe area. Let's just say I got cursed out, had a letter pinned to my front door, and had parents taking their kids out of Scouting b/c Catholics were allowed to be Scouts. Needless to say I didn't think the unit warrented trying to resuscitate despite my involvment and the key folks holding it together moved out of town. Good luck.

Jeff, At one point, and please someone with a little more knowledge on OA history expand if possible, the OA encouraged folks to research and look into using local nations. I think it was the 1920s or 30s. I do know most lodges names haev something to do with the local nations, whether historic or current. For example, Chilantkoba mean Brown Pelican in Choctaw, and that lodge uses an English-Choctaw dictionary when selecting Vigil names. Occoneechee Lodge is named after a local nation, which subgroups still live in the area.

Maybe I'm naive because I have a good SE, and had a good DE, who focuses on program. Maybe I'm naive because the pack has had some challenges the past year. And maybe I'm naive because when I looked at the troop JTE some of them seemed to be normal expectations ( 9 camps out/year, Summer camp, 6 service projects, etc) of my troop growing up. But I see JTE as a tool to focus on the challenges a unit is having. Yes some of it needs a calculator to fill out. But overall I see it as a tool to help a unit out. Now I do know sometimes units have problems that seem overwhelming, had that last year, but even just looking at the JTE when in trouble could help focus some attention on fixing the challenges.

...what will be left to mark the passing of Native Americans? I would not worry to much about that. I say that because more and more folks are embracing their heritage. You have more groups receiving state recognition and fighting for federal recognition. Powwows, which were traditionally a Western thing are now spreading all over. Nations that have lost elements of their culture are now pursuing it, and sometimes using Arrowmen and former Arrowmen, to help in the process. Now in regards to having ceremonies cleared, only the nationally mandated ones, i.e. Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil, have been approved. I know at one time national had a recommended Call Out Ceremony, but I do not know if it was approved or not.

Growing up, our troop usually arrived back at the CO between 1:15 and 2PM, depending upon the CO we had. Since they were churches, if you go there before that time frame, there was no parking. What I found interesting is the comment about the Catholic Church that chartered a troop. All 3 COs of my troop were Catholic Churches and they didn't specify when to be back. And we also didn't do Scout's Own except at summer camp. But almost all of the churches in the area had evening services, so it wasn't a big deal. Now with the council I'm in, at council events they want you out of camp by 11AM.

I'm in the first school of thought when it comes to Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, and Venturers. Now in regards to Cubs, everyone helps.

See I've had the complete opposite expereince. As a youth in the OA, we actually had someone from the local nation come out and help us restart our dance team, and helped us with getting period regalia made for our ceremony teams. We also helped them out by passing information to folks about them since they are in the process of getting federal recognition. When I attended NOAC, we had Native Americans present, teaching classes, and judging dance competitions, including the head man of the Ponca Hethuska Society. At 2 seminars I attended, we also had local Native Americans present. When I did a Indian Lore MB class, I had a leader who was a full blood Native American sitting in the class as she wanted to find out what exactly we were teaching, and how she should go about doing the merit badge as she just signed up to be a MBC for it. I admit I was a little nervous with her there, after all there were over 400 different tribes in North America with different beliefs, customs, and traditions and I didn't want to offend her. But one of the best moments for me was having her come up after the session and start talking about how she was surprised and glad that the class was as good as it was. Another plus was that she also like some of the regalia I made. And I found out last year, one of the local drums was started at the council camp. Now I knew they were friendly with the lodge, the AIA adviser is very well known locally and two of our members sing with the drum. But I didn't know how strong the connection was until I was talking to the head singer after his Ordeal.

BSA, There are folks who do the right thing in regards to Native Americans, regalia, and ceremonies. But there are challenges: folks don't want to do the research to do the regalia right, folks don't want to spend the time or money to make or buy the items as authentic as possible ( i.e. a 18' hair roach at Crazy Crow goes for $290 for deer hair on the outside only and $345 for deer hair in and out). And some folks just get frustrated when they do things correctly and people tell them "that ain't an Indian costume." (had that happen one time when I was in my dance regalia). And yes there are Native American who have complaints against the OA, but there are also for who are not only for it, but even help promote Native American Culture within the OA. I won't go into details here, but check a few of my other threads on this topic and you can read about my first hand experiences with Native Americans helping the OA do things right. In regards to Adults and ceremonies and dancing. Correct in that adults do not dress in regalia and do ceremonies. They also cannot compete BUT they can dress out and dance at event powwows. Someof the most fun I had was after a day of judging dance competion, dancing at the powwow that night after the arena show.

Well there are no westerns on TV at this time. That will be changing in the Fall, or so I have read. As for my kids, they got hooked on F-Troop and Davy Crocket, but that's b/c we got the videos. Middle son cannot wait for CSDC b/c the theme is Wild Wild West, and he plans on bringing a few items to camp Then again I plan on bringing a few items to camp too

Fred, You have no idea of the grumbling these folks have done. They raised a terrible stink when someone new became DAC, told them that he is overall responsible for EBORs and that they were going to follow the book or can go elsewhere. They were reassigned different responsibilities, but somehow have been asked back aboard the EBORs. Only thing I can think of is that the DAC that replaced the one that corrected things asked them back on EBORs since the DE left.

Well this topic is about to become a very hot button issue in my neck of the woods, especially since I have a feeling part of the reason why the new GTA exists is b/c of some of the folks in the district. Anyway, some of the old-timers who have caused challenges and added requirements to the Eagle process somehow got back on the EBORs, and at RT started sprouting off "policy" from the old manual, it was actually their MISinterpretation. I had to remind them that a new policy book has come out, GTA, and it is available on SCOUTING.ORG, as well as a new workbook that needs to be used. Unfortunately I was talking to another volunteer about this issue who had a conversation with the old guard and they are adamant about keeping things the way they are. Things are not looking good.

Patrol camp outs without adults are now forbidden. All overnite activities must have 2 adults. Patrol day activities are still allowed. So any patrol hikes, service projects, shopping, etc is OK.

It all really depends upon the ceremony team and the script they are using. Have I seen cheesy regalia and cheesy performance, yes. Have I seen cheesey regalia and good performance, yes. have I seen awesome reagalia and cheesy performance yes. Have I seen awesome reagalia and awesome performance. You better beleive I have and it was inspirational. The problem is the concept of the "Hollywood Indian," and it's so prevelent that some folks, when they do authentic, period regalia, they do not beleive it is real and that a lot of research has gone into it.

Acco reminded me of an expereince I had. First weekend I worked at Kingsdown Scout Camp was the 20th annual Cub weekend. One of the highlights was climbing AND rappelling for them. In the US only Boy Scouts can rappell. Another proof of the BSA being risk averse is that some MBs haver estrictions on who can be an MBC. Now I can understand wanting to have someone certified as a lifeguard teaching lifesaving. But some of the others? For example Canoeing. Canoeing merit badge counselors must have either BSA Aquatics Instructor or Canoeing Instructor certification from the American Canoe Association, American Red Cross, or equivalent; OR local councils may approve individuals previously certified as such, or trained by an instructor so qualified. Luckily I've been previously approved for caneoing so council can recertify me. Closest I've come to the certs required was BSA Lifeguard, YMCA Lifeguard, and YMCA Lifeguard Instructor. But I have 3 fifty+ mile expeditions under my pfd, and numerous weekend trips. I've taught canoeing not only with individuals, but also at summer camp when the MBC was fired. And that was the week I was going for BSA Lifeguard (luckily I was already a lifeguard instructor andf didn't miss much in the class) Rowing. Rowing merit badge counselors must have either BSA Aquatics Instructor certification or equivalent; OR local councils may approve individuals previously certified as such, or trained by an instructor so qualified. Ditto above. Luckily sailing doesn't have any restrictions, yet at least.

Skeptic, There are some things that cannot be waived and the camping requirement for volunteers, stressing volunteers, is one of them. Pros are automatically eligible, even if they don't have a nite under nylon, b/c it is considered part of their job responsibilities (DEs are de facto chapter staff advisers, but depending upon their boss may or may not be involved), so they need to go through the Ordeal ASAP if not already a member. However this is the definition of long term camp: * A "long-term camp" is one consisting of at least six consecutive days and five nights of resident camping. A "short-term camp" is anything less than that. If memory serves, that can include one fo the HA bases and Jambo.

Folks, I think I have an idea of what's going on, and we all do this at times. And that is parochialism. We all see things through our own eyes, and situations vary not only from region to regions, but also district to district. So I think some of the negative attitudes SP is seeing is in his neckof the woods, which would not be viable in others. And I can see a little of that. I've seen a little of that attitude, thankfully not much. But overall I have to agree with Emb. Most of the adult Arrowmen I know are in it for the kids and are selfless in their service.

Yep they are. When an activity that has been around for 100 years get's banned, patrols camping out without adults, that's risk aversion. When scouts can no longer build full scale pioneering projects, i.e. towers, bridges, etc, that's risk aversion. When homemade stoves, something that was shown in the Cub Scout Leader's How To Book gets banned, that's risk aversion. When folks are seriously considering banning marshmellows and campfires, and it was mentioned on this site a whiles back, that's risk aversion.