Eagle92

BD, Like I said it was a VERY interesting meeting Long story short, the resident camp NCS certified people are suppose to train and certify CS folks to run weekend camp outs. Problem is those folks are Boy Scout Leaders, and have little to no involvement with Cubs and could care less. So no one knew that for about 8 years national had these policies. No one knew that there are standards and requirements that need to be met in order to have these events. etc etc. Plus some of the rules do not seem enforceable when you have multiple packs camping, i.e all food storage containers must have thermometers and records attached. As for Moose's idea of filling out a budget, collecting monies and turning in expenses, it sounds like a winner to me.

Moxie, THE HECK YOU DID EARN THAT NEW KNOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes I am screaming at you ) Seriously there have been times that national has done away with awards, and quit producing the knots for them, but allow folks to wear a newer knot in it's place. For example, Silver Fawn recipients, ladies who had earned the council's highest award available to them since the Silver Beaver was restricted to men at one time, are allowed to wear the SB knot since the SF was discontinued and SB rules changed to allow women to earn it. Another example is the old Webelos Award. Folks who earned it are allowed to wear the AOL knot since that award turned into the AOL. Also if memory serves, folks who earned the discontinued Explorer Awards: ACE, Ranger, G.O.L.D., Young American, etc can wear a current issue knot that I cannot remember. SO GET THE UNIT LEADER AWARD OF MERIT KNOT AND WEAR IT WITH PRIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep there is a waiting list and a half for Jambo ASM spots. And some council start working on that item as soon as the previous jambo ends, so that the SM and ASMs are already in place except the 3rd ASM who needs to be 18-21 if memory serves. Staff is another option. It's cheaper as you are not going with the council contingent and thus not doing the extras. BUT you may have to arrive earlier and leave earlier. In regards to testing, I don't know the details of your son's condition, nor is the the place to go into details, but you do know that there are medical staff at the Jambo? Heck I was thinking about applying on med staff for 2019 to see if the med staff needs a medical librarian to do research for them if the need arises

Base, The two or more packs together = a council event is not a local thing, but national. Found that one out last year when a bunch of CS leaders attended out first ever class on CS camping at the council level,sorry forgot what it's called, and discovered that there are national standards, procedures etc that need to be followed when runngin one of those events. Needless to say it was a very interesting training.

Kudu, Question for ya, why don't you put the gung-ho Scouts in one patrol so you do not need ad hoc patrols? Is it b/c you need the gung-ho scouts in the various patrols to mentor the others? I would think that one gung ho patrol could inspire the others to perform, esp with inter-patrol competitions? Again this is curiosity on my part. I've been very fortunate to have been in some good troops that have not faced the problems I've read here. Thanks

My thoughts, and this is from someone who has seen it all. 1) We need more district level scouters who care, especially UCs, who are willing to hold the DEs to the fire. I know it was talking to my discom that I found out we had problems. They not only held me accountable, they went out of my way to help me fix the problem. Did it cause some friction with upper management, not at first b/c I was doing the job and getting things done. But once some units were not rechartered, or their charters changed to Learning for Life as it should have been, then it caused problems and I eventually quit. But if it wasn't for the district volunteers, and more importantly my brand new wife who was also a volunteer, supporting me in doing the right thing, It would have been worse. Also I know of one case where an observant district commissioner was able to spot a few ghosts, real ones and not ones that were rechartered to keep the youth registered and active as possible until the bulk of the leaders got back from a deployment. Long story short he was able to get the problem solved. 2)We need UCs that do the job of visiting units, advising as needed, and helping with recharter. A good UC doing his job can spot the ghosts. If we used volunteers more in the recharter process than pros, the temptation is lessened. 3)We need to take some pressure off the pros about membership. Yes organizations need to grow, but IMHO a good program is what keeps folks involved. I've heard from a pro in a different membership oriented non-profit that he had similar problems with his organization. Problem was his folks were dying off, and few are eligible for membership. 4)Make the sacrifices to clean up ASAP, and start form scratch. This is the difficult part and can have major repercussions. But I think it is worth it. 5) Another option is to bust butt to restart a few of these units, and it can take a lot of work, or start new units and transfer the charter to the new CO and unit. But as mentioned, BSA national has come up with ways to prevent this from happening again.

I admit I am biased AGAINST NSPs as when my troop implemented them, they did not work. However I know one SM who swears by them, but he has this catch: once they they stay in a NSP only for a few months, I think until after summercamp. reason for that is that they are with their friends and are comfortable until their first major trip with the troop, summercamp, and then they get to know the folks a lot better in the troop, make new friends, and decide where they want to go. Again my troop had 2-3 mixed age patrols, depending upon numbers, and a Leadership Corps of older, experienced scouts who had PL expereince and had troop level duties. Every 6 months scouts had the opportunity to change patrols and elect PLs. Unually folks stayed with the same patrol their entire time in the troop until they got into the LC. The exception was when starting a new patrol due to numbers, then volunteers would be asked to start a new patrol. Sometimes the SPL did have to select folks to be part of the new patrol. Some ideas. 1) do not use ad hoc patrols if possible. Can it be hard, yes. Can some events require a minimum number per patrol, yes (and i do not like it either). But by not ad hocing it, ti will stress the importance of everyone's role. 2) If possible, again IF POSSIBLE , avoid having everyone form the same school in a patrol. I say this b/c my troop had to deal with over 10 different public and private school schedules, so you could not make everyone happy. I vividly remember a camporee that was scheduled when one school had a mandatory saturday event, a test I believe, and all but me and one other person in my patrol was at school that weekend.

Base, I know I PM'd ya, and hopefully you didn't think I had the attitude that it is not a big deal because it is a big deal, a VERY BIG deal. I quit being a DE over the pressure to continue falsifying membership by my superiors. But a few years back, after major membership scandals in TX, AL, and GA, BSA came up with a membership verification process. Don't remember the details of the process, but there is now one in place, and I hope that it is working. Now will some folks sign up at Round Up, pay their fee, and either show up at a meeting once and drop, or never show up to a meeting, getting their "recruiting prize" and being happy. Yes, and I had that happen to me with my den. So some folks being on the membership rolls b/c the fee is paid and they drop is going to happen. But I know first hand that there is pressure to meet membership goals, and some upper management council folks go ape in regards to membership. I've heard stories of folks going to cemeteries and getting names and DOBs. I've heard stories of folks using the phone books. I know with some of my units that were ghosts, the units were real units that over time folded, and they kept getting rechartered. I have heard of COs not realizign that they are still chartered with the BSA. As I said, a few years back, a verification process was created to keep this from happening. I want to say about 2007 or so. Unfortunately you can thank Ronnie Holmes and his AL mess, among others, for that. On a positive note, to keep members and grow, all you need is program and leaders to organize it.

Don't remind me of the Eagles who can't perform. I admit I'm rusty in some skills, and I may inadvertantly do things "old school" and not the current BSA way. And I may get my lashings' names confused, heck I admit I forgot how to tie a regular square lashing 'cause my troop always used the Japanese Square (JS Mk2 I found out is the technical name) But by jingo I can go out in the outdoors and survive, and I expect that of an Eagle. But I am also old school. Mastery of basic scout skills was experessly written in the BSHB of my time, and expected from us by the Jr. leaders. who were in charge.

Gotcha. To a degree I like that policy b/c it would insure that folks leading troops have some outdoors background (sorry IOLS does NOT make you an outdoors expert, heck I am still learning new things and I've been around a while), and we hopefully would not have repeats of NH. Plus I would have more attendance at my IOLS training this weekend But I know folks who have strong outdoor backgrounds who have not taken IOLS yet b/c of time constraints. Luckily national does allow a test out, but some council do not allow it.

Forgot to add, the purpose of having their own district is to get someone focused on their needs. Yep DEs get some training on all aspects of Scouting, except Sea Scouts (yes I have met pros who did not realize they still exist). But Venturing has some really advance, specialized needs that can get overlooked by district folks.

Moose, In some councils, you have a pro who specializes in Venturing and is the go to person instead of the local DE. Yes the DE helps the crew, they are part of the CO in his district when asked, but the Venturing DE (or is is Venturing Executive [VE) is the one ultimately responsible for commissioner council level committee and council level program for Venturing. CAVEAT: I was just looking over on SCOUTSTUFF.ORG, and notice that while the Exploring Executive emblem is still being made, there is no Venturing Executive emblem. back in the day some councils with large enough numbers of Explorers would have a pro doing what I mentioned above. The SrEE my old council had was AWESOME and even helped trained me when I needed it. When Venturing came out in August 1998, it was suppose to follow the same format. I know the EE I was working with was still responsible for Exploring units in the council, and was responsible for the newly moved over Venturing units as well. Don't knwo if that format is still the case, EMB can better answer it.

Base gives excellent advice. If I may digress a bit to packs in general I'd appreciate it folks. 1) I'd add that when you go shopping, bring your own weight to put into the pack and try it on. 2) Do not buy online UNLESS you are buying a replacement for one you already have. You really need to try them on, put some weight in them, walk around, etc. 3) If you must buy online, make sure you do your research and try to find someone with the pack you are interested in and try it on. 4) Make sure you go to a reputable store with knowledgable folks. Yes REI, Campmor, Cabellas et all are good. Sometimes your local Scout Shop will have someone knoweldgeable on staff (I think the guy who replaced me at my old store knew a little about backpacking since he did Philmont). So your expereince may vary. 5) DO NOT BUY A "BLUE LIGHT SPECIAL" PACK!!!!!! (Caps for shouting this go around, and yes I'm showing my age) Been there, done that, and had the external frame break halfway through it's first week of real use (I used it a bit at summer camp prior to the weeklong backpacking trip) I WAS MISERABLE! If you are going to buy a pack, save your money and buy a good one. If you take care of your pack, it will last years (My replacement pack for the one above was a used USGI ALICE Pack that's now 25+ year old and oldest will be using it shortly. Very minor repairs have been made on it. I also have an old Wind River internal frame that's 12yo and is in great shape). SAVE UP THE MONEY AND BUY A GOOD PACK THAT WILL LAST (caps for emphasis) Ok digression over back on topic I'm told that Osprey's are excellent and have great customer service.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

KC, Thanks for the clarification. I should have known that there would also be some legal ramifications involved.

Ideally that is how it is suppose to work. That's why you have the same COR for all units chartered by the same CO (at least you are suppose to, I knew 1 CO that had 3 CORs, but that is a different and VERY long story, and also pre-SCOUTNET which would catch it today.) Does it happen, not always. But that is the ideal.

SB, Unless your council mandated, as far as I know IOLS was not mandatory to take Boy Scouts out. Jay, What's his specialty? Again I've had several first responders say they do not want an MD around unless they have an emergency background. They are too set in their ways and cannot adapt. Again this is secondhand. But if he is teaching outdoor oriented first aid skills, don't get me started on ARC and AHA first aid courses, then that's a different story. FORGOT TO ADD FOR ALL, new updates are backtracking from previous update.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

'Skip, Where are you folks going to be at? I know each activity center has stuff, I personally love Youlbury's tower, ranges, and museum. Also any guidelines you folks need to follow? Over here it's the Guide to Safe Scouting, and it can be a little uptight compared to you folks.

HMMMM interesting. All I can find is the headman's info. Oh well here's his info Michael A. Ashline Director, Supply Group (704) 588-4260 or (704) 583-9475 Hate using the 5" guns when the 40mms will work just as well. But ya gotta use ya resources, and hit the target. (ASIDE, yes I've been watching SONS OF GUNS and the episode BLOWING UP THE KIDD. They have an absolute AWESOME overnight program, better than the USS ALABAMA and USS YORKTOWN, and a fraction of the course. They actually have tour guides assigned to you to give you the normal tour, plus go some extra places if you want. Tour guides get "interrogated" by the Tim Nessmith before they are able to give tours. Trust me I know. Best placed I ever worked at.)

Base, Post 58 sounds like a post a friend of mine was in. He grew up in a rural New England area where the local ambulance service was an Explorer post. They had equipment, ambulance, did training, and had certified EMTs as members as I think the age at the time was 16 for the cert at the time ( late 1970s.)

Ok I was about to say that OA stuff wasn't supposed to be on sale except a few minor items, but things have changed and they can. HOWEVER restricted items like the ceremonies books, chapter adviser patches, sashes,etc are required to be secured and paperwork/proof needs to be offered to buy. They are not suppose to be on the floors but behind the counters. Actually the SE has a LOT of influence over the shop, despite the shop being nationally owned. They can change that, heck they can mandate that NO OA restricted stuff be sold, at least last time I worked for national. We did not sell anything OA related except what could be ordered via the web, restricted OA position patches (and we verified who they were) and DSA knots (we had a few folks who could get those and they were known personally by the staff). If the SE doesn't want to get involved, call the regional VP of supply. He can fix it in a jiffy.

OGE is correct, MBCs are district committee folks, so unit level folks usually don't sign the forms. But I do know places where the procedures are not followed. What's funny is I have 3 membership cards: DL, MBC, and Dis Com. Member. Bad news is that you can sign up for as many MBs that you feel you can handle teaching. Now the DAC is suppose to review the MBC apps if memory serves, and there is an additional form that is used to tell the DAC whether the MBC you want to teach is part of your vocation, avocation, or something you have specialized training in. Don't know how many folks use the form though, and don't know how many just sign away in order to have an MBC for the topic. Good news, at least for some, some MBs now require MBCs to hold specific certification in order to teach them. So if dad tries to sign up for Swimming, Lifesaving, Canoeing, and Rwoing, among others, then that's a no no unless he has the certs.

It's been pretty much hit on the head. Webelos are Cub Scouts that are part of the pack, but they can do some things extra b/c we are preparing them to be Boy Scouts. Advancement and camping differences have already been mentioned.

Base, If memory serves, you can go to your council office and ask to see a copy of their budget. It may be the previous year's though, and that is acceptable, again if memory serves. I also know there is an online database online somewhere that you can look up their tax returns from the latest year filled, which would probably the same thing shown at the office. If you give me the time, I may be able to get the website for you. I do believe you have to register for it, but it is free to do so if memory serves. I think it's guidestar.org. One thing that you may need to remember, although each district has goals, it's based upon amounts raised in previous years and not amounts it actually costs to operate the district. Some district's can barely afford their DE, and I've seen a few that can not only pay for all of their events, but also the DE. So other district's will help out in that. And yes those districts usually merge. But sometimes they do not for a variety of reasons, I'll deal with that later. Also some things are used by all districts,i.e camps, council office and office staff, supplies, etc. And part of a district's goal is to cover that as well, if possible.

PappaDaddy brings up a good point. My thoughts are that the council is there to support the scouts and units, and using unit accounts to pay FOS should not be done. Unit accounts are there to help scouts earn their way, i.e help pay dues, buy uniforms, pay for events, etc. As a scout is suppose to do if you read the old literature (sorry haven't seen mention of that lately with Boy's Life or Scouting talking about $90 jeans). While it's good to get them in the habit of giving to charities, that is not the intent of the account Grant you my views are based upon my personal experience of being one of those scouts who was only able to stay involved because of busting butt at fundraisers and using the account for almost everything.

Base, They way I did it when I was a DE and I think they still do, yes I was the one who started it in my council back in the day and they still do it, was take the total operating budget and divide by the total number of youth. I did round up so $91.36 became $92 per scout. Now the brochures we used showed where all income came from: FOS, UW, event fees, gifts-in-kind, scout shop sales, etc. And we also showed where the expenses went to as well: supplies, council properties, salaries, etc.