Eagle92

HEHEHE Archivists are cool.

Just curious, when did the sports and academics program start requiring paperwork to buy the stuff? I notice that Internet Advancement has a place for it, and so does PACKMASTER. But it is not advancement. Thanks

2Cub, TRUST ME I AGREE WITHA YA SOMEONE NEEDS A BUTT CHEWING! (emphasis not shouting) That's a challenge I see getting to high up the food chain, you forget WHY you are doign what you are doing: THE SCOUTS! As to patch redesign, actually all the ranks were redesigned in 2010 for the centennial, and that caused MAJOR shortages. They are back to normal, and those councils that kept the older patches in stock in the back did OK, or so I've heard, when they converted back to the non-centennial design. I've heard that those that turned in the non-centennial designs did have some issues getting htem back. Now I think the Eagle patch has a minor redesign for the 100th Anniversary of the first Eagle Scout. To bad they didn't make Centennial Sea Scout insignia.

Ok a few comments from teh peanut gallery 1) "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." Green Bar Bill himself penned those words along time ago. Yes historically Cubs didn't camp, but that has changed. CUBS WANT TO CAMP! (Caps for emphasis, unless you are one of the folks in my council who says "Cubs don't need to camp." Then I'm scraming at ya, or at least wanting to ) I have lost Cubs because "you don't camp enough." I have Cubs bothering me at every meeting now asking when we are going camping again. Heck my own Cub and his brothers pester me almost every day about it. 2) Scout camps are used year round, not just for summer camp. 3) In regards to day camps, they are a legitimate use of council camps in the summer. I know my old DE told us how his old council operated an entire summer of day camp and resident camps at one of the council camps. Blew my mind away with that one. 4) Having planned CSDC, I can tell you a lot of the headaches involved in planing are removed. You do not have to worry about multiple sets of rules ( BSA's and facilities). You do not have to restrict activites because the facility will not allow it. You have less security issues. You get the scouts use to the council camp (OK this may become a problem when your son thinks he owns the camp because he goes all over it not only with his den at day camp, but also with you when he helps with set up and take down ) and more importantly "SCOUTING IS OUTING!" as Green Bar Bill also penned. I know when my den had to plan a day camp at NCS with a bunch of restrictions on the activities fro our project, it took a lot of the fun out of camp, and a lot of the Outing too. So please do not discount CS use of council camp facilities. 5)RS brings up a very good point about renting. Again day camps face this all the problems all the time. I know that my old council camp had some waterfront issues, i.e. the dam busted and their was no waterfront. We had to rent the pool at a neighboring camp. While everything did work out, we did not have the access to swimming as normal, and of course no boating activities. An aside: the #1 favorite activity at my day camp is something that we could not do int he past due to facilties: Fishing. We do a special 1/2 day Webelos program, and the other half the do BB guns and Archery. We didn't not schedule fishing for them except as an option to take the place of water games. There was a revolt by the Webelos! Many said the only reason they want to come to CSDC is for fishing, archery, and bb guns, in that order. I would hate to see what attendace would be if we moved to a different location that did not have fishing. HMM need to ask CS son about that. EDITED: I just reread the original post and it did not state summer camps, just scout camps in general. So CSDC and resident camps that use council facilties and the challenges they face when they are not on council properties ARE valid discussion points IMHO. Cheers!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

CC, In regards to the rank and other restricted items, be advised that sometimes it is out of their hands. I know my boss use to estimate what we would need using some formula she came up with (it was based on sales the previous year and round up stats) and ordered it right after inventory in January. The problem is that sometimes the warehouse is out of stock.

Base, Some type of "permanent" camp is needed. If council's didn't have camps, then indiviudal units would. I know in some countries, that's how it is done: The unit has their own camp, as long as the owner agrees to let the unit use it. If memory serves, there is a summer camp in MS that is operated by three troops and was started prior to the council having their own. They own the land outright, and all three troops have their own buildings at the camp. The use it year round for meetings and camping, and allow other scout units and other groups to rent the place.

I actually recommend getting them big so that they grow into them. As my old boss uyse to say, " Big enough to grow into, but mot look like a clown." I actually hemmed my son's pants in a way that the pants were not cut but simply folded in a way to allow them to be rehemmed as he grows. It's working.

BS, When the No Patol Camping Policy came out, there was a thread that did have links to a story where scouts did burn several million dollars worth of forest. HOWEVER it wasn't a patrol camp out with a group of scouts who have been together for a while, know each other very well, and have their SM's approval. Rather it was a summer camp Wilderness Survival MB class that had two Scouts teaching the course, take the scouts on their overniter, and leaving them on their own. And The scouts in charge ignored a fire ban.

In regards to learning languages and going abroad,I had this conversation with some folks when I was in the UK. The countries are so much smaller over there, that if you drive 2 hours, you have went through one country, and just entered a second country. Some people over there don't grasp how big the USA is. Kinda funny when someone expects to make a quick drive from NYC to New Orleans for a visit.

Our biggest problem is finding out who is coming to training period. When I've done BALOO, we had maybe 6 people attend, and 3 showed up the day of the event. With IOLS, I specified to contact me prior to registering. Luckily everyone but one did, but 2 called me and the 3rd told me in person the day before the event. We did our IOLS from Friday Night to Sunday morning. We squeezed n a lot of info. We won't mention names, will we SCTDAD, but the guy doing the first aid was freaking hilarious and was tops on everyone's list.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHHHTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I second 'Rat's suggestion

Yep I remember reading that story. And it is a coincidence that the fuel policy changed shortly thereafter. It's like a lot of other things, i.e. no patrol camping without adults, no pioneering projects over a certain height unless inspected and folks are wearing helmets and hooked up to a belay system, etc.

Moose, I like the idea of an IOLS patrol meeting prior to the event to cover food and other stuff and allowing the patrols to make their own menus. If memory serves, that was how it was done for my SMF. I know the day long session covering today's SM Specifics and a bit of IOLS had the meals provided for. But I want to say the model troop meeting session and our patrol meetings were used to prep for the weekend trip which woud be today's IOLS. But My memory is going fast with my old age.

Especially ones that are shown in such publications as older BS Fieldbooks, CS How-To Books, ad nauseum.

Well I haven't taught SM Specific, but I know BALOO had about $15/person in photocopies. I was so concerned b/c we didn't have enough preregister to handle the copy costs and food. Luckily we had enough last minute folks show up to cover costs. As for the IOLS course I taught, I spent over $70 for photocopies for all 15 participants and staffers. Now $16 of that was for 2 topo maps made on a plotter that I can reuse, but the rest covered applications, handouts, etc.

Eng, 1) national shops have employees either in field uniforms with gold loops ( regular staff), or the professional dress uniforms (manager and asst. man.) At least that's how it was back in my day. 2) The way to get replacements ist eh following. A) Have a scout with a completely filled out form with everything HE has earned listed on it to purchase the items. And if possible a copy of his SCOUTNET records for verification. B) Make sure ALL information is correct and the form completely filled out per the SCOUTNET report. C) Somewhere on the forms mark in big bold, underlined letters "REPLACEMENTS" That should solve the problem of getting repalcements. As to how things can get lost, VERY EASILY! Especially a lot of the smaller items like pins and arrowheads. People will put stuff in the wrong container, things fall onto the floor and get lost behind shelving units, items may have the wrong tags on them (especially some older merchandise that BSA no longer sells, but is still in the inventory) and unfortunately there is some theft. I always hated inventorying the section of the shop with all the pins and small patches. I remember one entire shelving unit being done 3 times, and a few items being done a few times after the intial three.

Short, THAT'S IT!!!! That rule came out within the past 10 years. My old camp never had a pool, always using a manmade lake instead. When I heard about a pool being built at the camp and saw the pics of it, I was very surprised b/c I know how expensive pools are to maintain. I was told it was a new law that forced the council to build a pool. Now I know the laws say under 15 cannot do it, but I have seen a few 15 yos, and one 14 yo, go for BSA Lifeguard. And of course they are guarding as part of the course.

One more thing, while not encouraged to be done by national, I know it happens and recommend it as a volunteer. Suggest to your wife to build up a "war chest" of extra advancement items, i.e a few extra rank patches, MBs, etc. This is especially a BIG DEAL on the CS level and around Blue and Golds time. I know when I worked for supply, we sometimes ran out of awards in the Feb/March Time frame because we were inudated with packs buying advancement for BnG. Trust me, I saw a few $300+ orders. My troop growing had a "war chest" would use stuff out of it and replace it with the advancement we purchased with the advancement report. We had a minimum invenroty requirement, and if we fell below that point a few "replacements" would be ordered. My pack also has one, but most of it is from council sending us stuff after we had already purchased it from another council, despite markign on the report that it was already bought and not to send.

We do a district one. It can be long since we go 1 at a time, BUT IT IS FUN!!!!!!!!! We have a ramp that we put at the top of the hill, then there is a long driveway that leads to another parking lot. The event is psonsored by a local club. A few comments. 1) Make sure that everyone practices on a flat surface with the car being pushed so that they get use to steering the car, and how it operates. We have actually had cars damaged during practice runs b/c folks run into curbs and what not. It does take some getting use to. 2) HELMET AND PADS (ELBOW AND KNEE)ARE A MUST!!!!!!!! Cap are for emphasis as this is VERY important. I've seen a car flip over one time. Good news was that it was a CM in the adult division (he was a tall one too so his center of gravity was higher and par of the cause) and he wasn't hurt b/c he was wearing pads and helmet. 3) Have a well marked off route. Our "track is 2 automobiles wide ( it is a driveway after all) and about 10' is marked off and cleared on the sides. We have some NO PARKING signs in the marked off area, so we remove the signs and cover the poles with rubber tires. 4) Make sure there is somethign to do for the scouts while they wait. Sometimes they get antsy 5) Start on time, and follow the rules!!!!! Long story short, ours do not start on time and it is annoying. Also because they changed the traditional date, day, and time (usually on the second Sunday in Nov in the afternoon, to the first Saturday in Nov. in the morning), and it was was not communicated well, several packs did not do practice runs for the new folks prior to the event as per the district rules. So we were delayed even further b/c the decision was made to allow practice runs on the actual track, instead of the parking lot. LOTS OF UPSET PARENTS with that decision b/c "some children got to do the cubmobile twice," and "shouldn't they have done this already; this is taking too long." Grant you I understand allowing folks to practice. Heck we had to do our practice runs before the event at the CO b/c there was no other time to do so b/c of the event change. But it could have been done in one of the two parking lots and not on theactual course itself. 6) Make sure everyone knows when the event is well enough in advance. The event change above occured AFTER the district calendars came out and units had scheduled activities. In fact the event was not even on the district calendar when units starting planning their program, and of course everyone assumed that they would do the event on the same day and time as they have done it for the past 20+ years. Plus once it was changed, it was not communicated well. Several packs had trips and other events planned, including mine. And some packs found out about the change at RT 2 days before the event! Needless to say, the event had very low attendance.

One thing in regards to pools. I believe, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but some federal legislation was passed that said those under 18 can not work on waterfronts that do not have clear water. So those camps that had lakes and ponds for swimming no longer can use them and must have a pool.

A few comments. 1) LOVE THE ACRONYMS AND GOTTA USE THEM IN THE FUTURE! (And yes Eng I'm screaming at ya, but in a good sort of way ) 2) I remember the days when units only gave awards only at COHs. I know things have changed, but if this is an older unit, traditions die hard. 3) Wife should not deal with parents, only other leaders and Scouts. Advice given on this is spot on. 4)Please tell me your store is a local one and not a national one. When I worked for national, we could usually pull a few items an place them on reserve right away. For larger orders there may be some time delay, but the low inventory items would be pulled ASAP. And if you didn't' want to pick it up, and we did have a few units that either didn't or couldn't, we shipped. And one time I delivered the order personally. We had one unit in Prague that used our shop to get the ranks. Got a nice thank patch for filling their orders. And one person was visiting and was willing to trade patches for deliver to the hotel. Have patches will deliver

Fred, You must have some of the really old ones, ones that I wish I could still fit in as I outgrew them. Seriously though, depending upon usage and stress levels, even the ODLs from the late 90s early 2000s would rip and tear. In the 2 years I worked national supply and had to wear the long pants 5 days a week, 10 months a year (I was allowed to wear shorts at my two months of summer camp) I went through 3 pairs of pants and 1 pair of shorts. On a different note, when the canvass CU pants came out, my wife went shopping at Walmart and found a pair of canvas convertables that were almost identical and got me a pair. Slight difference in cargo pocket, and they come hemmed. But that was the differences. Also back in 1999 or 2000, just prior to the Venturing pants coming out, I was at REI looking for gray pants. One pair I saw I liked except for the elastic in the waist. a few months later, those eact same pants wer e now the official venturing pants.

SO TRUE! I've had a fair number of DE's in my scouting career. Most are gone. The one good one I had is now Council Progran Director. My experience is that most DE's are far to involved in trying to raise funds and membership numbers to actually know what is going on around them. We usually educate the DE's, instead of the other way around.

Base, All the above, as it depends upon the council and the camp. My council is fortunate in that we own or have access to 6 camps. Oldest camp is in my district 25 minutes away. Has one major shelter with facilties, a QM building that doubles as a trading post, several permanent shelters and some airondacks in several campsites. Second oldest is pretty much open with 8-12 permanent shelters and one health lodge. This is used for council camporees. Next up is the primary summer camp with all the goodies. Followed by another camp that was a standard summer camp until operations could not keep it going. It was rented out to another non-profit, and they made some major improvements, but once the lease was up, they left due to the economy. What's interesting is that apparently a road split the entire property. the section on one side has been used by the BSA all this time, while the other, the larger portion, was rented. Fifth is the HA base and wildness area. HA base is like #3 and wilderness is just that, wilderness. Last is a camp that is owned by another non-profit that has some faciltiies. haven't been to that one though. Camp I grew up at was on a reservation that had over 16000 acres. Originally intended to be several camps with differing ammeneties (if memory serves a CS camp with a cub world, standard BS summer camp, and a wilderness camp). But last I heard, they only have 2 camps: one developed and used for everything, and one that is wilderness. Loved that portion of the reservation. Now Quaz mentioned oen thing and I can see that happening. Another thing I see happening is units going out and finding their own camps, but that can be costly.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In reference to summer camp programs. I know alternatives are out there, but they are usually more expensive. FOS and OA service projects do help keep costs down. I know having a set location for various events throughout the year is also helpful. I know the small camp within our district is used for multiple districts' events, and a council level one. I know that having day camp at one of the local camps gets rid of several major headaches in day camp planning. Also some folks, especially Cub Families, get comfortable with one particular camp. Downside is that sometimes they do not want to try other camps. But at least they are camping.