Eagle92

I just remembered something, when I was a COPE director my course was "conditionally approved." Reason for that status was b/c we had just opened the COPE course, and not all the supplies had arrived. Inspectors were merciful b/c we were able to show them purchase orders for the missing safety gear. Some of the stuff was backordered. Back on topic. Thank you everyone. Matters are in motion.

Nike, That's the problem, we have no one lined up. Took severals weeks and two attempts to find my replacement, and I am working behind the scenes helping. Again we are a small district, and only 1/2 the packs participate on the district level.

I just remembered an instance when the law was about 5 minutes form being called. Scout caused some serious trouble and leaders wanted him gone form summer camp. CD and camp clerk have him in the office with all his gear and trying the contact info given to them. After about 2 or 3 hours they finally talk to dad. Apparently mom and dad went on a second honeymoon while junior was at summer camp, they were not leaving their hotel to pick up junior, and the camp would just have to keep him until they come back on Saturday. CD figured out how much time it would take to check out and drive to pick up junior and told them "You have 8 hours to pick up your son, or I am calling the sheriff's department and telling them I have an abandoned teenager at camp they need to pick up." CD, PD, and clerk and a few others rotated in and out of the office as needed. Kid was sleeping in a cot or a chair, the CD was at his desk sleeping, and the PD was in a cot by his desk when the parents showed up.

2Cub, Again my only knowledge of a day camp without 2 NCS people was when the CD died a few weeks before camp( I think it was 2 weeks), and the PD became CD. There was a volunteer PD without a cert. And they were conditionally accredited. I don't know any other details except the PD did go to NCS with me. In regards to numbers, yes the camp numbers are up, and yes we had a surplus last year for the first time in nobody knows. But the pros also know why because I'm the one that drove them crazy in regards getting things done the past two years. It's kinda funny that the staff adviser who has been around for a while can't ID our camp director because they only see each other at inspections for a few minutes. And please do not wish that last statement. Her husband is in and out of the hospital a lot. In fact he was having chest pains at day camp, and ignored them until after camp was over. He was admitted shortly after seeing the doctor. She also has problems, and has been in and out of the hospital herself. In fact I found out why I there was no communication between us last year for a few weeks: she was in the hospital. Worse nightmare is one of them having a heart attack and we don't have an AED at that camp.

Depending upon local laws, sometimes a thing we consider minor may be serious legally. We had an incident at day camp once, and it was handled appropriately. One of our DLs at camp is also a state trooper, and he had a little talk about things with everyone so as not to single out anyone in a general manner. Problem solved.

You folks are gonna laff, but when the inspectors come, I've been the one to walk around camp while the book and all pw stuff was done by the CD. So I have no idea how it's actually done and what they do. I know the guys walking around have not had any problems. As for making money off of us, despite the CD saying "I've never gone over budget until you became PD" in regards to the fact that I went about $4 over budget my first year as PD in 2010, the council has actually budgeted a $200 loss for 2011.And that figure is based upon several years. I was told that last year was the first one we had a surplus( not a large one but one none-the-less), and notice they again have us budgeted at a $200 loss. But I was told that they would close down a camp if standards have not been met, and I've busted butt to see that they were.

Base, What about camp inspection and accreditation?

Ok while I was posting some more comments came in so here's the scoop. Our SE is program oriented. He was the one pushing for more Cub Scout programing.He was the one that got the camp we use for day camp in order so that we can use it. And while he is focused on the 3 M's he also know that if there is no program,there will be no scouts. And I have pictures to prove that Hell froze over, and I don't mean the Saint winning the Superbowl in 2010 either, as I got picture of him doing "cheerful service" at the camp. And he has gotten involved in some issues that normally don't get his attention either. But I want to go about it by the book as much as possible. E, To be honest our committee is weak. CORs are not active like they should. Our committees do not meet at the same time, only the chair, and even then they may email a report. And I admit I'm just as guilty of that. There have been an occasion or two that I was "all scouted out" that week with den meeting, council cub scout activities teleconference, council CSDC meeting, and OA Ordeal. I needed to spend some time with the family. Again one of the problems with wearing to many hats. As for going along with the consensus of the committee, agree with you 100% I try to be agreeable and focus what's best for the kids. BUT I do admit, I will raise issues as they arise.

Folks please keep it coming. With over 15 years involvement, as you can imagine there is a lot of backstory that is way to long. I'll answer one at at time Base, I'm the new CS RT commissioenr, so I'm now reaching out to the other packs. I have gotten some replys back and some have not called back. I'll be making calls this week about RT next week. As stated she has had roles changed, but somehow always gets back to the activities. In regards to CSDC, that has been such a low priority that only once had they tried to replace her, and the replacement quit. Shee really needs to focus on being a UC for the units that love her to death, and yes she does have 2 units that think the world of her. And yes want to minimize the collateral damage. CP, Yes we got time to get day camp ready, but we got less than 4 weeks to get a new CD because of when our area has NCS. Getting supplies may be a challenge for several reasons. One is that she will ignore requests for copies of the records. Another is that in regards to supplies there is no inventory of what she has. Don't ask, I know and I have tried to get an inventory prior to camp, and when I tried to inventory stuff after camp this year, she didn't have the time to wright down what she has. Essentially it was a race between me and her to collect the supplies that was used for camp. She was not happy one bit as a bunch of supplies I purchased for camp I collected as soon as possible and am storing in my shed for this year. But with her not having an inventory, some supplies that were missing when I picked them up from her the week before camp and then showing up at orientation, after I bought replacements, it wa frustrating. As for the reason why she has so much power it is very simple. For whatever reason, the focus has been on Boy Scouts for so long, no one on the district committee, except her, really cared about Cub Scouts. So no one was really concerned about her fiefdom. Unfortunately things change slowly in this area, but some progress has been made, and Cubs are starting to get a bigger focus. But there are still only 2 Cub leaders on the committee, her and me, and I do not know if I'm still ont he committee as I'm now a commissioner. She has run off some folks who were interested in working with her. And some folks have basically told her to bugger off when they ran specific activities that fell under her. But as they move out.... So the problem is no one knows who to replace her with. 'Fish Ok you figured it out. Except not the SE. Usually the SE won't get involved,at least in my experience, until all else fail. Getting info together and going to the district committee about it. You are so correct IT'S FOR THE BOYS. I remember a time when she did focus on the boys. But for whatever reason it seems that has changed. And I am starting to honestly believe what some have told me: she is the reason for all of out Cub problems, i.e lack of activities, organization, and volunteers. As for the chaos You are so right. I did a good bit of the work the past two years. I made mistakes, screwed up, etc etc. BUT the kids had a blast, adn that is the whole point. And to be honest, I snuck a peek at the book when she wasn't around, a lot of filler. While it would be somewhat time consuming to "reinvent the wheel," it isn't rocket science. All Please keep it coming. REVISED QUESTION: Has anyone been involved with a day camp where there was no PD? The only case I know of was one where the CD died a few weeks before camp started, and they were conditionally accredited b/c of the circumstances. Thanks and keep it coming

SaintCad, National Training Committee has backpeddled some on that. Check out https://www.facebook.com/BSAtrainingteam here's the quote A Message from the Volunteer Development (Training) Team Leader, Mark Griffin: A Scouter is considered trained for his or her Scouting position and eligible to wear the Trained emblem when they have completed the currently prescribed courses for that position. At this time this includes Youth Protection Training, This is Scouting, and the Specifics training for their role. For Scoutmasters, Coaches, and Advisors of outdoor program crews, Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills is also necessary. These courses are also included in the unit Journey to Excellence. The BSA desires that leaders take the current training because as BSA program, policies, and practices evolve it is important that leaders stay current to provide the best, safest, and most consistent Scouting program for youth. However, the BSA has long believed that a tenured leader does not need to retake basic training every time there is a new course - because through supplemental training, roundtables, Scouting magazine, and participation in activities, they can stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program. With the approval of the district training committee, Scouters who were fully trained under a previous basic training for their current role (and of course have completed Youth Protection Training within the past two years) may be given credit as trained if, in the opinion of the training committee, the Scouter has continued to stay up to date with the current methods and practices of the program. These Scouters would be eligible to wear the Trained emblem, be considered trained in the unit Journey to Excellence, and would meet the training criteria of the various training awards for their position. Entering the qualifying training courses and proper dates taken into the Scouters record in ScoutNET will also mark them as trained. ( all emphasi are mine) It is the desire of the National Training Committee that leaders take the current training to be sure that they have the up-to-date information related to their role. While there may be a challenge getting tenured leaders to take the time to take a new course, in most cases these leaders can be excellent resources for the training committee to help put on Specifics or an outdoor skills course. As an instructor they should be given credit for completion of the course. We can never be fully trained. There is always something to be learned, so we urge you to take advantage of training opportunities whenever they are available. Mark Griffin | Team Leader | Volunteer Training BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Council Operations/Program Impact

Yeah politics can play a role. We had a kid on staff I caught stealing at summer camp. He was sent home. B/C dad was on council exec board, he showed up the next week on staff. Luckily not in my area.

Eng, Only because society doesn't give folks responsibility like they use to. For example at 25 I was married and supporting a wife. BUT under the new healthcare laws that will come into effect 2014, I could have been on my Mom's insurance policy still, even though I was on my own, several states away, and had a FT job. But if you want to really see what the 18-25yo crowd can do when given the opportunity, look to the young men and women in the military. They are truly heads and shoulders above their peers. On a different note, let me tell you about one expereince I had pre-internet. The troop was growing and needed new tents. Now the scouts did all the research: looked at tents locally, read reviews in magazines, talked to friends in other troops, etc. basically a lot of time was spent getting the info on what tents to buy, b/c we had a history of keeping tents a long time. So the tents were picked, the vendor was picked, we just needed an adult to order them for us. So the troop treasurer was given all the info to but them. WWWWWWEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the treasurer had the bright idea that he knew better than the Scouts did. He found a sale on tents locally and bought them. They were popups, i.e. everything connected. They were heavier than what we asked for, more fragile than what we asked for, and you could not buy replacement parts for them as the way they were designed if one part broke, the entire thing was broken. So we had to buy all new tents within 2 of the purchase of the popups b/c they all broke within 2 camp outs. Good news was that after the first campout that they broke on, we figured out how to rig the suckers. with ropes and scout staves.

Base, Nope she hasn't gone through WB and won't Unless a cabin is involved like NCS, she doesn't camp anymore. Agree with you 110% on recruiting from home unit. Problem is we are so small a district, and about 1/2 the active Packs do not participate on the district level. Partly b/c we have not had an active CS RT to get info out, partly b/c of teh activity chair. I'm working on the RT part though. Unfortunately she's like that a good bit of the time. To quote one parent this weekend "She's always cranky." The comment of retirement has come up a time or two not only among others, but also herself. Problem is that she won't let go. I know letting go is hard, heck I am having problems letting go of CSDC esp with all this malarkey going on. But I it seem like every time I step back a bit, I get dragged back in by someone or something. I guess that's part of the problem of being a volunteer in the district that you used to be a pro in: everyone remembers you.

Everyone please keep it coming. Beav, Thank you, something I have not considered in regards to strategic v. tactical. Sometimes the fires are so hot you can't see past the flames and distortions. The concern I have about limiting her role is that she always finds a way to come back. We actually had someone doing CS activities, and she would not cooperate with them and the person gave up. She and her family do have health issues that raised some concerns, so the old DE went looking for a camp director to replace her. We found one, but when the potential CD got no cooperation from her, the potential CD just gave up and quit. Luckily the DE was NCS certified and was the PD that summer. I know she asked to be CS RT commissioner again, and I'm glad I was asked to to that job. Maybe a volunteer can get more done than the DE can?

Fred, As I stated, the purpose of this post is to get all possible variables and consequences to "Be Prepared." This issue has been with me since Saturday and I kinda have tunnel vision on the matter. Ditto with the district. Also I admit was good to get it off the chest since the wife is sick and tired of hearing about this person (And she has heard about the activity chair since BEFORE we got married). As a former DE I kow what he will say when he gets back from PDL-1 Not going to spoil it yet. Although on the district committee, I haven't worked with the district chair much. But I know the district commissioner, and know he is now involved b/c our unit commissioner is involved. I'm actually surprised I haven't gotten an email from him yet as he is my boss as well since I am also a commissioner. Again all possible actions and consequences.

We had some drama at the district PWD surprise, surprise. Problem is that it's starting to snowball and may affect all Cub Scout activities because who is involved. Long story short, CS Activity Chair who runs all the CS events, including day camp, was rather rude to both parents and Cubs this past weekend. She was also accused of doing some other things which have not been documented and I won't address them until they are. BUT I personally saw one instance where she was rude to the Cubs at the display table with the cars. I also received emails from 2 individuals about one incident involving her, and heard from others the same thing, and have asked that they write letters about the situation. In a nutshell one CM is worried about losing several of his Tigers because of how they were treated, and if the CM does lose the Tigers, he will not only withdraw his staff application for CSDC, but also not encourage anyone from his pack to attend if the activity chair is also the camp director again. Another leader complained that the chair is always cranky, even after I tried to defuse the situation a bit when the chair left the scene. Again another person with ties to day camp. What really is causing the snowball to grow is the incident involving a Cub from my pack. First he and mom were treated rudely for having the wrong tires. May not seem like a big deal, but the attitude is what caused a lot of anger with mom, trust me I saw it in the parking lot when she asked me if I had extra tires before I had even parkd the car. Then when it was his turn to race, the chair stopped him from getting his car to race and started berating him, refusing to listen to him and mom. 2 leaders from my pack had to intervene to let him get his car to the track, but he missed one run. No apologies, nothing. Mom is very angry, Committee chair saw allof this and is ticked off enough to A) get the UC invovled, and B) wants to get the DE's boss involved since he is at PDL-1. Again this is my pack which is A) the largest B) supplies the most kids at camp and C) supplies the most staff to run day camp. We've had problems with her in the past as you may have read. A lot of folks do not want to work with her, nor attend events run by her. Day Camp attendance has increased b/c I have served as an intermediary between her and staff, and folks deal more with me than her. In fact several staffer have point blank told me, that they will only deal with me. But now I've stepped back to be the Tiger partner for middle son. We have a new PD, but I think he is about to get overwhelmed. He knows some of what happened this weekend, and suggested that we counsel her and move on since we need to focus on day camp and at this point need her to operate. My concern is the counseling won't help, and it will devastate the day camp program. Discussions with her have occured in the past, I did one of them as a DE 14 years ago, and it seems like it makes a short term change, but nothing long term. As for replacing her, no one feels comfortable stepping up to the plate because she has personally taken over all CS activities and does not delegate or share information. One example is the day camp book; after almost 3 years of working on CSDC stuff, I have yet to get a copy of all the information she has b/c she refuses to lend it out or even make copies, and I have offered to pay her to make the copies for me. OK thoughts, comments, critiques, EVERYTHING, as I am trying to keep all my options open and trying to see all the possibilities that can occur. As I said the new PD opened my eyes to one possibility that I over looked b/c I've gotten too involved in the matter. And that too may be a problem as I hate seeing Cub getting hurt b/c of a leaders attitude and actions. Thanks in advance and sorry for the rant.

Event two would have been it for me. I know in the instance I had to deal with a youth being sent home from summer camp, the CD and I had the young man stay in the administrative office with us while we did work/read.

I know Quaz can answer for himself, but her is my interpretation of his comment. There are big differences between a 11yo and a 14yo, hence the "older Scout programs" of Sea Scouting, Exploring, Leadership Corps, venture crew/patrols, and Venturing over the years. Unless you instill the concept of 'giving back," or "servant leadership," or whatever you want to call it so that your older Scouts not only do their thing, but also give back by helping and mentoring the younger scouts, there is a tendancy to ignore them. With Venturing, working with peers is the norm, and it is a lot easier for older Venturers to work with the younger ones. They are similar in many ways.

Tram, Have you gone through any committee training yet? I ask because as an AC, you are a "paperpusher." Advancement standards is program related, and that is the realm of the SM and his assistants. I'm doing this from memory, so please bear with me. Your job is to arrange BORs, record advancement and awards earned, submit records to council, purchase awards, and make sure that council records are correct. OH and provide FEEDBACK (emphasis not shouting) to the SMs about programing concerns that arise from BORs. If you have concerns, maybe a cup of coffee with the SM is needed. BUT he is ultimately responsible for advancement in the unit. The SM is the one that says who can and cannot sign off on requirements. The SM is the one who assigns MBCs, etc, etc. Now part of the BOR process is training committee members to sit on them. And that is an important one. As someone who sat on a BOR with no training or experience except going through them, it can be intimidating.

I don't know what it was called as they did it before I arrived, but My OA chapter did some type of training to help run the ARC emergency shelter. Don't know any details, nor why they stopped doing it. But I remember coming home early from a conference and going straight to the ARC shelter to help out.

Sounds like you got some folks who are still in CS Mode. The SM is the gatekeeper for advancement, and since he said accept you need to accept it. Luckily they are no longer with your unit and hopefully you will not have to deal with them again. Advancement can be handled in a variety of ways at the local level, as long as they follow G2A. While there is no national ban on parents signing off kids in Boy Scouts, many units do that. Personally I like the PLs signing off on T-2-2 advancement.

In all seriousness, I am wondering why someone would get Chinese or Japanese characters tattooed on them if they don't know exactly what they say? Ic an understand some folks wanting tribal tattoos. I can understand characters, animals, names etc. But I don't understand in a foreign language that you do not understand? I'm asking this b/c I saw the tat on young lady today that was Chinese. It reminded me of a story I was told back in college. One drunk guy went to a tat parlor and wanted these a tat in Chinese that said one thing. Well he ended up with a tattoo saying something completely different, but didn't know it until someone who was Chinese asked him if he really liked guys like his tat said.

I agree with Short on this one, why do adults do the things that the scouts can do themselves? Now I know sometimes adults do not take the scouts seriously, heck some older adults don't take younger leaders seriously, but here are my answers from my youth. MONEY QUESTION - Do your scouts create a budget for each camp out? YES Each patrol creates their own budget. QUESTION - Do your scouts manage the camp out budget on an on-going basis? ... beyond knowing how much they can spend on food per person and managing it while shopping and filling out an expense report each activity has it's own budget, so their is no ongoing basis QUESTION - Do your scouts research and cost out buildings and other price points? Depends, sometimes we did it, other times adults had to get involved b/c the person would nto take the scouts seriously and would only talk to adults. QUESTION - Do your scouts produce financial summaries for camp outs? No QUESTION - Does your adult troop treasurer NOT produce financial reports for events? And if not, should they be doing it? No ATTENDANCE QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders manage event sign up sheets? Yes, every PL was responsible for their patrol and the SPL colelcted it all QUESTION - Do your patrol leaders record attendance info? ... Not including the troop scribe taking attendance at troop meetings and patrol leaders organizing scouts forming patrol lines at different times and reporting their attendance while in those lines. Yes PLs took attendance at all activities. We used the little Patrol Leader Record Book. QUESTION - Does your adult troop advancement chair NOT track attendance in troopmaster or similar? NA as they didn't have that stuff. Everythign was recorded in the "Brown Book" aka Troop Record Book. Copies of the advancement reports were kept by the troop advancement person. QUESTION - Does your an adult leader in your troop NOT track who's signed up for camp? No that is the PL's responsibility. PL gives copy of their report to SPL. QUESTION - Does your troop NOT have an adult generated sign-up list used by the scoutmaster to know who should be there when leaving for camp? No that's the PL's and SPL's responsibilties. CALENDAR, RESERVATIONS and ACTIVITIES QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT approve dates and locations chosen by the PLC? PLC takes a lot of time coming up with the calander as we had to deal with over 15 different school calanders. Whatever the PLC decided, it had to be done. QUESTION - Do your scouts make facility reservations? depends, sometimes yes, sometimes no if the reservation agency wouldn't take the scouts seriously. QUESTION - Does your troop committee (or at least the scoutmaster) NOT review and approve the major activities the scouts plan to do? SM attends the PLC and does advise. That's part of his job description. QUESTION - Does your troop committee NOT provide feedback to the scoutmaster after SPL give the PLC report? SPL doesn't deal with the committee, SM does. Committee provides support for the program, not programing ideas I was so fortunate in that my troop very youth run,a nd we were a hiking and camping troop. When I read JTE requirement with troops camping out only 4x/year, it blew my mind. See troops that stop meeting for the summer, only goign to summer camp or HA bases, blew my mind, that was the best part of the year for Scouting b/c there was no school. When I see and read about adults doing things the scouts should be doing, I am flabergasted. But I see how easy it is for that to happen. Lack of proper training, units falling into ruts or being built up, new CS parents moving up and not understanding the difference between Cubs and Boy Scouts.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Local distributors, read council owned shops and other business that sell BSA merchandise, do not have to put items on sale.

One of the best FA events I ever saw was at a camporee where the DE used his resources to get corpsman from the local Marine base to not only judge, but supply the victims and realistic wounds. I thought it was awesome, especially the squirting blood from one wound, but apparently there were complaints and the SE said no more.