Eagle92

I want to comment on something that someone stated: that just like Boy Scouts, they can continue working on the award with the original requirements. If you read the Boy Scout info on this, Boy Scouts will have a one year grace period, I want to say January 1, 2016 to December 31, 2016 to use the current requirements for T-2-1, OR their NEXT Rank if First Class, Star, or Life. Once they hit First Class, their NEXT rank, OR January 1, 2017 hits, they MUST use the new requirements ( all bold, underlining etc. emphasis). Which as long time Scouters know is a departure from precedent. Me personally, and I will be in this situation, since CS ranks are not tracked as well as Boy Scout ranks in my council (don't get me started) I will probably recommend having the Webelos IIs keep using the old requirements since they will only be a few months before Crossing Over. Heck with my old den, all of the AOL requirements except the "tenure" one were completed before August 1st.

Well I'll do a follow up. I mentioned folks giving a West Fellowship in honor of someone. Well I found out that 1 gentlemen that use to be in my council, and worked heavily with my district commissioner and his wife, donated a Fellowship to both of them in his new council. He said he didn't know what was up, only that he received a call from his friend asking for his full, formal name. A few weeks later, he got a package in the mail.

Ok back again. Some things about the troop and situation I'm in. 1. Since I am still in a pack at a different CO, I can only meet with the troop when the pack is not meeting. I plan on going camping and summer camp with them. 2. I'm the new guy. Although I know alot about the troop, the SM etc, I am still learning the details and dynamics. 3. One thing different than my troop growing up is they don't do "stealth advancement," i.e. PL, SPL, etc will sign off after you they see do a requirement properly without you asking for the sign off. Examples include SPL signing off First Aid Skill Award requirements after seeing you do it for real, SM who is also an MBC signing off after teaching you the requirements, and letting seeing you do it (He told us 'My boat, my rules. You want to drive this is what you gotta do...." didn't realize it was the MB ) So only when the Scouts ask will they be tested and signed off.

OK I'm back. In regards to the troop being adult led, to a degree it is. And it's not that the SM and ASM don't know what they are doing, I know both, know their history, and talked about where they want the troop to go. But I also know the set backs they have had: members moving, families going through divorce, and yes transfers to an established troop. It seems as if they finally get someone to do the SPL job completely on their own, and something happens. But, the youth are stepping up to the plate. I told them that they can do anything they wanted to, within reason ( Hint: one scout wanted his dog for animal bites ). They were very creative and did a great job. I've camped and did the overniter with them, and trust me the youth are on their own. They have burnt meals, been late leaving, the whole nine yards. Dedked, kid is 12 or 13, been in the troop a year, and still Scout. more later

Base, We were trying to combine both T-1 FA skills and First Aid MB skills since I am a counselor and had access to some equipment. And one of the requirements for the MB is to teach skills to others first aid skills selected by the MBC. hence why I picked instructors. BUT, you are right in that I need to explain not only to the SPL, but also to the other instructors how I selected them, why I let them choose what skills they would teach, etc. I got all those who I know have the skills, First Class or getting ready for their 2nd Class and First Class BORs, let them review what needed to be done, and asked them to pick the skills they wanted to do. Which is basically How my old troop did the process, except with the SPL running things. So mea culpa and I will be workign on this. In regards to the troop being adult led, I'll talk baout that when I get the chance.

Same in my council, except I personally know the USPS office in the HQ city is extremely bad from my days as a DE. So some is that, some is council losing PW. What I do is ALWAYS ( emphasis) make copies, and if at all possible, esp. if money is involved, hand deliver it.

Ok, you folks know I try not to push advancement. I don't want anyone to do anything they don't want to. You don't care about getting Eagle, but just want to have fun, that's fine with me. But I had an expereince this weekend that I haven't encountered since I was a youth, A Scout who doesn't even care about getting past Tenderfoot. Now the Scout in my youth, he eventually got Tenderfoot, but was grabbed kicking and screaming to get it. The he became one of the biggest troublemakers. he eventually got his wish and quit. Now this Scout I met this weekend, he just wants to have fun. Ok no problem, but when It came time to assign Scouts to teach the new guys first aid, he was a little peeved b/c he wasn't included. When he said Scout, I told him how do I know he knows the required skills? I then told him, if he knows them, when the instructor is working with one new scout, he works with another. And this he did for all the skills we went over this weekend, except the ones I was doing. I ran into him at the meeting Monday. Asked him about why he didn't care about advancement, and he said, " I'm lazy, and just want to have some fun." When I told him Philmont requires a Scout to be First Class to go, that gave him pause to think. So next chance I get, I was thinking about having a chat with him about all the fun stuff out there that requires First Class rank to do: Philmont, OA, NYLT, etc. But I don't want to push it on him. I'm asking you guys because, A) you are easily available to discuss this with than the other leaders at the moment, and B) I am concerned about turning into the "CS Leader at a BS Meeting." An yes, it's already happened. The Scouts were going over their first aid skills, and somehow or another I got involved by saying "HELP! The bone is sticking out of my arm." and having them take care of me.

Quazse, Has the YPT / VYPT problem finally been fixed in SCOUTNET? I know a few years back, Venturing leaders still needed regular Youth Protection Training AND Venturing YPT. Don't ask me why, but some type of programming glitch.

I know they weren't popular, but who was the idiot at national that decided to pull the skirts from the racks? I say adapt, improvise and overcome.

Unfortunately Tokala is spot on. I've been told by many that the reason why summer camps are more MB focused is because of the parents. I know that the program I HA program I developed was a miss because A) it wasn't promoted, and B) the brand spanking new COPE COURSE that was promoted caught everyone's attention. But the Scouts I talked to were for it , and wanted to come to camp the next year for it. But one parent/leader did ask me what MBs would the folks get who did the program. Very disappointed when I said none.

I want to apologize if I ranted a little in my posts on this thread. Dedked's situation is very similar to the one that I'm in, and it has been extremely frustrating for me to see the troop start failing. I helped get some of the original leaders trained when the troop was started. I've worked with the old SM when he was having challenges with the troop getting started. I've camped with them, worked with their Scouts as an MBC, etc. etc. I admit I took my oldest son to their feeder pack first not only b/c the pack was extremely active, but also because they did have a good relationship with the troop, and I really wanted him in that troop because they were a boy-run, hiking and camping troop. They reminded me a lot of my troop growing up. And if I got a bit defensive, please forgive me. There was a very public facebook incident on our council's facebook page in regards to not having enough training available for this unit that hit a nerve with me. SM was complaining that SM specific and IOLS are only offered by our district once a year, that the dates are inconvenient for folks, and that leaders shouldn't have to travel to another district over 10 minutes away to get training they need. That hit a sore spot because I organized an IOLS class specifically for that troop, using their own calendar to schedule it, only to have 1 leader show up from the troop, with the excuse that "it's too cold to camp." When I tried to tell him what is involved in in organizing these courses, and how in my metro sized council growing up the course were only offered twice a year by clusters of districts instead of every district doing their own (so in my council there are 9 opportunities to do IOLS a year) he said it shouldn't matter, and if we needed to bring in outside folks to do the training, then we need to do it. As you can imagine, this is a very raw, sore point still for me.

Twocub, Although I cited an example of 2 brothers joining a different troop than their 2 older brothers, I have to agree with ya on the "herd mentality." I think part of it is the familiarity and relationships that have developed, i.e. they know what their brothers are doing, here the stories, get jealous, etc. But sometimes the being with their friends does win out. That is what happened with my friends younger brothers: their pack had a great relationship with the troop, and the entire den went together into the same troop. I will admit, I do hope that all my boys join the same troop, just to make my life easier , but if they go their different ways, then I don't have a problem with it. SWMBO may have issues, but I won't. I agree with you 100% in that the troop-pack relationship IS (emphasis) a two way streak. The comment about Den Leaders properly using Den Chiefs is 110% spot on. I remember not being utilized by the DL I was a DC for and hated it. I had to move on to another den. And the same thing happened to my old DC. I gave him up to the Webelos Den that needed someone with outdoor experience when they lost their DL. New DL utilized him for camp prep, but then quickly stopped using him. DC stayed until the end of the pack year, and stopped being their DC. Glad he's back, and I will shortly have him running the den meetings totally while I sit back and drink water. And I also admit I may be somewhat guilty of Webelos-to-Scout transition problem. I know when I've talked about it to scout leaders, I've emphasized their role, i.e. developing a relationship with the cub leaders, contacting the packs and setting up a visit and overnighter, sending DC's if possible, etc. I haven't really talked about the roles of the pack, i.e. promoting the troop visit and overnighter, using the DC’s properly, inviting them to some Webelos activities, etc. One of the problems I see with the implementation of a UK group method is leader exhaustion. Let’s face it, Cubs is leader intensive, and most leaders look forward to moving on and dealing with less stress. Heck, I am already counting down until I am no longer a Cub Scout leader ( 5 more years, 5 more years! LOL). Locally, I see this divide on the district level where I am the only active Cub leader on the district committee. If I don’t interject CS questions and stuff, we get overlooked. OH HECK YEAH THE WEBELOS OVERNITER IS A BIG DEAL! In my experience, the Webelos Overnighter is what hooks the Cubs on the troop, or in the case of my son, completely throws them off. It does need to be well planned and executed, although I did experience one Webelos Overnighter that everything was pulled out of the magic hat the nite before when the troop discovered all of their tents and most of their gear was damaged beyond use and repair when they went to load up the trailer the nite before the overniter (don’t ask, BUT that overniter started a new tradition with the troop: Wilderness Survival Weekend with the Webelos. BEST. RECRUITING. TOOL. EVER! and yes that is me shouting in joy at the memories of that, and succeeding overniters. ) The visit before the overniter is where the parents get comfortable with the troop, at least when we didn’t have a feeder pack. Once we had a feeder pack, you are 110% correct in that joint activities are the best to establishing a healthy relationship with the pack. I will admit, being neutral about the pack’s CO’s troop was the absolute hardest thing for me to do. I did not want to hurt the troop, and my fear in having my son announce where he was going too soon was having the entire den follow the “Alpha Cub.†In fact I hope and have prayed that one of the CS leaders who just moved up takes over as SM and turns the troop around as he made some comments about what he sees the troop needs to improve, and he has knowledge, skills, and abilities to do a great job. But what has made neutrality really difficult for me was listening to the older Scouts who have lost interest in the troop, and either transfer, leave Scouting altogether, or as in my Den Chief’s case, only remain registered with the troop so that A) he can be in the OA still, and B) serve as a Den Chief for his cousin. Further, it really hurt me when I saw boys that I recruited for the troop 6 months later, and find out that they are no longer interested in scouting because it’s boring, too much like school, and they didn’t do any camping. I did my best to help the troop in offering advice to the troop's adult leaders to improve the troop, recruiting new Scouts for them when I had some reservations about them, offering ideas to have a good Webelos Overnighter that would hook my old den onto them, and have even stayed overnight camping with them in order to have 2 deep leadership when everyone left but the SM, his son, and 1 new Scout whose mom was out of town that weekend. So I do have a bit of loyalty to them, and will remain neutral.

Dedkad, Give it time with your son's troop. I know the troop I grew up in would put new Scouts parents in committee roles before asking them to be ASMs. Part of it was to get them 'deprogrammed" from Cub Scouts, as there are BIG differences between the programs, also it gave the parents the chance to 'get away" from the Scouts and see the troop as it is suppose to be run. Also it gives them a chance to get trained. I think it's a good thing, heck I am now a MC with my son's troop and know I need "deprogramming" ( Let's just say I had fun poking fun at me and reviewing summer camp). I think the reason why the Pack's CO's troop is having the problems they are is because the current SM was a boy scout leader less than 12 months and wasn't fully trained until after taking over, and the parents on the committee were all CS leaders with less than a year as BS leaders. Fred, The mass exodus had more to do with the parents than the Scouts. The parents were comfortable with the leader. And while what you describe is the case most of the time, it is not always so. My old den didn't follow me to a different CO's troop. Only 1 of the guys is in a troop, and in all honesty he picked it b/c my son was going there, or did my son pick it becasue he was going there? Also I know of 4 brothers who were in 2 different troops. I pray that doesn't happen to me, but the Scout need to decide.

Base, Believe ti or not, one of the intentions of the West Fellowship was to honor those who are involved n Scouting. I know of several long term Scouters who had folks contribute to recognize their tenrue in scouting.

Again every situation is different. Most of the leaders in my neck of the woods would rather have someone in another unit and stay in scouting, than get out all together. And a few would rather the youth be in some type of positive organization, even Trails Life, if that as a better fit than a troop.

Fred, If my pack's CO was to ask me to leave because my oldest son decided to join another CO's troop, this is what would happen. 1) They pack would lose a Scouter with over 30 years in the program, including as a professional. I've been able to help out in some sticky situations b/c of the expereince. 2) The pack would lose their only consistent member to Roundtable. Yes, I can be replaced in this matter, but at the moment I'm it. 3) The pack would lose their only active member of the district committee. Yes, the COR is a member of the committee, but I have only seen him at one scout event in the 5 years I've been with the pack, and that was actually a Boy Scout camporee. 3) The worst thing that would happen is the pack would lose 1/4 of it's members at a minimum. My 10 Wolves would move, and probably a few others as well. Unfortunately I saw #4 happen, not when a CO kicked out a leader, but when a church decided to restart it's pack and troop. They asked one of my pack's leaders, who was a member of the church, to restart the pack. Kinda hard to say 'No" to your minister. He ended up taking his entire den with him when word got out he started a new pack. He didn't actively promote switching over, but when people found out, it happened.

Fred, In my neck of the woods, pack shopping is the norm. You might have 2-3 packs visiting a School night round up, so you visit the packs at their meeting. Even after Round up's are over, you still get folks switching around. different packs meet different needs. So your argument for pack shopping does exist and is viable. As for why do you want leaders at the Cub Scout level who are involved in another CO's troop, maybe they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to get the job done and be an asset to the pack. After all it is the SCOUT'S (emphasis, not shouting) decision to join a troop, not the parent's, at least it should be. I know in my situation, 1 Boy Scout at one CO, and a Wolf and in about 6 months TIger at another CO. I knew the troop had some challenges, I and many others tried to advise and counsel to no avail, but I wanted my son to see them anyway as I could not believe the situation was as bad as I kept hearing and reading. It was. Son went camping with them and it was a complete charlie foxtrot as I described in another post. I went away several times to keep form interfering and expressing frustration. He noticed the issues and, yes, when he asked me if that was a normal troop, I was 'trustworthy" and told him no, it wasn't. He wanted to see other troops, and we did. I hope and pray that the troop situation improves as many of my former Cubs are in it. But one, who did have reservations about the troop, has commented ' If I don't like it, I transferring." While the UK model may be a viable one, in fact I do like it myself, one key ingredient is the GROUP LEADERS ( again emphasis) who supervise the pack's, troop's and crew's leadership. Group leaders are similar to our commissioners, but more involved. But as I mentioned, when you got leaders who think they know better than the folks who have 'been there, done that," and won't listen to their advice, or, more importantly, won't listen to the youth at their SM conferences, and with their election results, and then wondering why the youth are transferring or quitting scouts all together, troop has a problem.

One more comment. My wife dated me while I was a DE and knew a little of the stress that was involved. It wasn't until about 2 weeks before had to be cut short (national policy is that they are only required to give you 2 days off for getting married, and I had to come back to work on the Wednesay after I got married) that it her her. After 6 weeks of marriage, she gave me the ultimatum: her or the job. So to quote the 9th Doctor (or is he the 10th now ) "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!"

There will be weeks where you are working less than 40 hours (not many of them; I can count on one hand), there will be weeks where you are working more than 40( the bulk of them), and there will be weeks when it will be 80+, it all depends upon the cycle of the year you are in. When I was a DE, during the fall, Mornings and Evenings were spent at schools talking to students and doing the evening round ups. In addition, I was meeting with different district committee folks , and prospective COs. as well as prepping for FOS season. Towards the end of the year, if membership goals were not where they were suppose to be, you hauled butt to find any unregistered scouts. That could be interesting. I still remember my now wife waiting at the office for my last minute membership applications to be inputted into the system so I could take her to home to meet the family for Christmas. She had a nice little nap, and we were able to drive non-stop, taking turns driving. We got there in time for Christmas Eve, barely. Spring is FOS season and you will be beating the bushes for money.This could get interesting as you got to be available whenever potential donors are. So you had no set schedule. Forgot to add that this is in addition to any district or council events you may be working like camporees, banquets, leader training etc. Because of the drive time from the HQ city to some part of the council, I had a few friends who would just sleep at the office when we had some nite time activity like council board meeting, and a staff meeting the next day. By the time he got home, he would only be able to get an hour nap before leaving to get back to work. Summer time can vary depending upon what is going on. My first summer as a DE, I was sent to camp for the entire summer, and yes I was doing 80+ hour weeks. Those DEs with camp expereince usually were working hard, actually teaching classes, training, or providing logistical support. Those DEs without camp expereince usually had it easy as they had no duties but to be seen by their units. My second summer was kinda like that. My week of summer camp duty was pushed back until a week after my wedding. The camp director was not happy as he had 5 days to find HA trek leader. He was not informed that I would be at camp the week after I was married, so he did not have anything for me to do. Since A) I had no units in camp that week, and B) I was told in no uncertain terms by my boss that I HAD to be at camp that week despite nothing for me to do, I stayed in the staff cabin all week, hogging up the one "public access" the staff had, and did all the paperwork I had planned to do at home to prepare for the round up season. Only time I was off camp property was for an already scheduled meeting. NOW, the situation has changed somewhat. With the reduction in DEs and keeping the same number of districts, the pro's are very much stressed out. One pro, was covering 6 large counties that would normally be 3 districts. He put over 120K miles on his brand new car within a year. We've had 2 pros that I personally know quit because of the current situation of not enough DEs for the number of districts.

I know someone who had their registration revoked because a known liar (he lied and tried to get 3 leaders in trouble a year before) accused another leader of making a pass at him. The leader caught him out after hours trying to peep into the ladies' showers. Unfortunately there were no witnesses to the incident like there was the year before (3 adults and 3 additional youth), so it was a 'He said, she said" situation and the leader was gone.

Fred, Yes, troops are not there to serve the packs. Troops are there to serve the Boy Scouts. BUT if a troop doesn't do anything with a pack, and another troop does, which troop do you think the Cubs will join? Statistically Cub Scouting provides the most Boy Scouts. I've seen this multiple times. When I was a Cub, the troop my Pack's CO chartered did not do anything with the pack: no invitiations to a meetings, no Webelos overniter, nothing at all. They just expected the Cubs to cross over to them. A neighboring troop with no pack did provide a den chief. They did invite us to a meeting. They took us on a Webelos overniter. And everyone in my den joined that troop. I know of a troop that folded because they could no longer get new scouts. Why? Because they did not establish a relationship with the CO's pack. All the Cubs joined a troop that provided den chiefs and did things with them, Ironic thing is this: the troop that folded is restarted and is now working with the pack ( they had a joint Christmas Party in which Cub and Boy Scout awards were given out and the Webelos IIs crossed over) and the troop that was "stealing" the Cubs now is having recruiting problems becasue their feeder pack folded. Recruiting is needed, maybe not to the degree some folks want, but if you are not getting any new scouts, you will run into problems.

On the flip side, a good DC is worth their weight in platinum, both for the troop and the pack.

DG, Agree that the Boy Scout needs to want to be a DC. DCs forced into the position, like 2 of the 3 DCs we got will not work out well. BUT, an SM needs to constantly remind the youth that the DC POR is available and is a great resource for the troop in getting new scouts.

Dedkad, I can sympathize to a degree with you. My oldest decided to join another CO's troop. So oldest is meeting at one church, while middle son, and in 5 months 24 days youngest as well, meet at another. Going to get real interesting when we do Scouting for Food and Memorial Day Service Projects on the district level. But I let him choose, and he had a better fit with this troop than the CO's troop or the 3rd troop he visited. And I really sympathize with trying to get the troop to be involved with the pack to aid in moving the boys to that pack. I tried and tried and tried to get the troop to provide den chiefs, invite the scouts to their meetings, do a camp out, etc. Only got den chiefs when the CM announced that we would be getting them from another troop. Only when some committee members and troop parents started complaining about the other troop "poaching" their scouts did we get Den Chiefs. Only invited Webelos to a campout at the last minute when most folks had other plans or couldn't go to their camp out ( it was a family camp out at an amusement park $50/ person admission PLUS $10 or $15 / person to camp plus you own meals.), and only invited Webelos to attend the meeting about 4 weeks prior to Crossover in order "pressure" them into joining the troop ( I quote oneof my former Cubs." While Fred's idea is how it is suppose to be, but it must be a two way street. If a troop does not want to have a relationship, there are problems.

Mixed emotions on this. One one hand as others have mentioned, some troops do use aged based patrols. Me personally, I prefer mixed aged patrol to a point. When your older Scouts start taking on troop responsibilities, I prefer to put them together in a venture patrol, what was called in my day the Leadership Corps (LC). ASPL doubles as the PL for the LC, and members were the troop's librarian, instructors, quartermaster, etc. Reason being that sometimes troop duties interfere with what needs to be done with patrols, i.e. patrols are setting up their campsites while the older scouts are setting up the compass course. Another reason I like this set up si that sometimes the older Scouts need more of a challenge. I still remember the troop doing the 14 mile Vicksburg trail on the road, while the LC did the 12 mile cross country orienteering trail, and when one year that trail was closed, doing both the 14 mile and 7 mile road trails. BUT when a troop is stacking their scouts into a "super" patrol, sorry that is wrong. I've seen that happen a time or two, and it's real easy to spot the patrol that has no flag or reuses the same flag over and over, everyone has different patrol medallions on, and they have 3 PLS and 4 APLS. Thank goodness uniform inspections are part of the camporee process in my neck of the woods, and they usually lose points in that area as a result. Desertrat brings up a great point. We had a patrol that was referred to by some Scouts as the " $#!* Patrol " because all their members were in the 15-17 year range, were Life and Eagles, and went to Philmont about 4 months before camporee, and they were bragging up a storm. That year, the district allowed a Venturing Crew that had just started up about 6 - 8 months before to compete at camporee. Since many of the members were also Scouts in troops, only the girls competed in the competition. They cleaned everyone's clock in the competition and anihilated the Philmont patrol. not only the Venturers who competed were proud, but also the male Venturers who worked with them, but competed with their troops.