Eagle92

2nd, This may be an extreme example, but I'll give it. I admit it's 3rd hand, but after meeting the Scout in question, I can see it as credible. I heard a story of a young man you constantly had Dad and grandpa do a good bit of the camping work for him, i.e. helping him set up tents, cook, clean, etc. Some believed dad even packed for him as sometimes he didn't know what he brought on a trip. After trying to have a conversation about the MBs he had earned, and he had a bunch of them, and not being able to answer elementary questions about some of them that I was an MBC for and him having no idea what I was talking about, I can beleive it. Did I mention he was wearing both his Eagle medal and MB sash at den chief training? FORGOT TO ADD, why do the SM and CC need to think about changing rules and traditions? That's the job of the SPL and PLC. SM and CC's job is to keep the parents from interfering with what the Scouts want to do.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Mom, I can relate to the morning cup of coffee. May I suggest a one cup coffee drip maker? REI, Campmor and a few other places make them. I admit it does take it's time to drip through the coffee grinds, but man does it make a good cup of coffee. Even if I go camping with the troop which has a camp coffee maker ( yes COLEMAN makes a coffee maker that fits on top of a camp stove) I'll still be using it since I love a good cup of CDM or Community Coffee and Chicory from New Orleans.

The belt loops for CS are not going anywhere as they are very popular, they are indeed used for some advancement, esp the Webelos, adn the stole the idea from the Boy Scout Skill Awards. As for color coding the unit numbers, they already are. Green on tan for Boy Scouts and their leaders, White on Red for all Cub Scouts, including Webelos in the BS uniform, Venturers, and all their leaders, and either white on navy or navy on white for Sea Scouts, although according to the 2002 Sea Scout uniform changes, no numbers are suppose to be worn.

TAHAWK, You weren't in 3Rivers council a few years back were ya? Sounds like my of SE or DFS. In the 20 months I was a DE, my council went through approx 16 DEs, a FD, and a Finance (Fi) Director. Shortest term was about 3 weeks: DE, technically he was still an executive trainee, went to the emergency room because he was in bad shape. And with no family in the area as he had just moved, his neighbor took him to the hospital and called the office. DFS told the neighbor that he had to be in the office in a specified time period, or he was fired. Neighbor eventually got the message to the DE and called back saying the DE quit.

One of the challenges I've found as I've gotten more and more involved in scouting is that I've " been there, done that, got the patch, and am now one of the trouble makers" Seriously though while the uniform is suppose to look "uncluttered," even if uniform regs are followed to the letter, and you ARE a member of the uniform police ( gotta read this thread http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=266651 to fully understand), the uniform will slowly turn into that of a Central American generalissimo. I came from a troop with weekly uniform inspections as part of an interpatrol award. if you earned it, you wore it, and that has been with me for a long time. But one day I noticed my CSDL uniform with all the "swank" as BP would call it. it's starting to be too much IMHO. And I haven't put some stuff on it yet like my last two knots. Maybe Sea Scouts with their limit of 6 knots max , and plain jane uniforms is the way to go? But I still think they need unit numbers and First Class Anchors, aka "bugs" on their covers.

I'm not going to second guess you on this. You know your scouts, their abilities, and the forecast. If you are uncomfortable, DO NOT DO IT! But I do admit, the three most memorable trips have involved bad weather.

I cannot state how much Eisely is correct in my neck of the woods, esp. in regards to CS advancement. Just got the district advancement report for CS packs, and only 2 have anything listed, one unit I know for sure has the numbers way low. It seems as if teh BS records get in at some point since Eagle is verified by them. But CS, nah they don't need to record it. Only units using Internet Advancment seem to have some advancement going on. Gotta remember, advancement IS one of the methods, " should come a naturally as a suntan, something that just happens in the outdoors," and needs to be kept up to date. If council's records are not up to date, then what are you going to use? Council I was in used the BSHB to update records.

Forgot to add, So I can wear the CS leader neck medallions AND my training award medal with devices

I hope national makes a new TC device for knots, b/c they don't have one now. Also which device will a CM wear on his knot: CS, Webelos, or, if they come out with a TC device, A TC one

Eng, I've specialized in the "hard cases" b/c I was one as a youth. By any chance did your son have any incidents when he was younger? I know I drowned and had EMS revive me when I was very young. As a result I feared the water until given an ultimatum: learn to swim or get out of Scouts. I'm still here

Defend, Out of curiosity, how long have you been away from the Cub Scout program? I don't know exactly when Cubs started to do family camping, it was after I became a Boy Scout that's for sure, but sometime in the 1990s Cubs started camping. I know when I was active with teh OA as a yute in '93-95 range, my council put on massive encampments with 10-12 Thousand participants and staff, mostly Cubs. FWIW we have a lot of long term Boy Scout leaders, some of whom who should know better, that still think, "Cubs don't need to camp." and that's why I'm asking. I will say this, I got an entite pack chomping at the bit to go camping. Have one planned for April and another in May. AND we may send some families to the new council campout also in May. Last pack meeting, 3/4 of the pack was outside. As Green Bar Bill said "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." and ScOUTING IS OUTING!"

one of the best benefits of scouting for me as a youth was getting away from my parents for a weekend. Nice to just be on your own two feet. In the immortal words of Nakne, " OH HECK YEAH!"

All I can say folks is that in the two cases I've been involved in with council records being so messed up that the scouts involved would not get their Eagle, despite passing their EBORs, the advancement section of the BSHB was used to fix the council's records. I turned in photocopies of photocopies of the section, and my scout turned in copies of of his mud soaked, torn up, well used BSHB.

MIB, To quote the 9th DOCTOR, "RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!" The CC sounds like a control freak like the camp director I worked with the past 2 years. Once again I stress that you will become frustrated and angry, butting heads with the CC and having them change things on you after you have them all set up and ready to go. While you may be able to deal with most situations, other situations won't be easy to deal with, if at all. You sound a lot like me, in it for the kids. BUT I can tell you, the frustatrion and anger you WILL get from dealing with this toxic person will not only affect you and the fiance, but also te scouts, no matter how hard you try not to let them get affected. Like I said, I had skin in the game the past two years with my son, and I'm helping my replacement because I have two of my sons at camp this year. At one time I thought about sticking around Cubs after all three boys crossover, becasue in my district we need Cub proponents. But after dealing with the CD, who has her hands in everything CS related, I have had second thoughts.

From someone who has been in a similar position, unless you got some skin in the game, I'd pass. There will be drama, there will be problems, and you will go insane. My position was as a CSDC PD. That was my title, but I did 95% of the admin work too. Lots of headaches, lots of drama, and I drove my poor wife nuts griping to her about it. BUT I had some skin in the game, oldest son was going to day camp. If it would not been for him, I would not have done PD a 2nd year. AND I would not still be involved in the day camp process if it wasn't two of my sons going this year.

FWIW Historically, Cubs was a 9 month program based upon the school year. Then the Summer Time Awards came about. Now it's encouraged for a year round program. Boy Scouts has been year round, but when I moved to NC several troops only have 9 month programs, with summer camp and possibly a HA activity the entire summer. Summer was my troop's busiest time.

You can get artificial sinew at most craft stores.....for 10 bucks for 10 years worth. 10 PLUS years if ya ask me Someone gave me a partially used roll, and i am still using it! BUT a cheaper alternative, and yes I'm cheap, is UNWAXED (that is for emphasis not shouting, and trust me you want unwaxed) dental floss stained in coffee ( what I prefer) or tea (not dark enough IMHO but doable). EDITED: Once you have the stuff unwound and stained, THEN run it through wax to wax it. Now this is where I may go overboard, and I admit it. This is the dancer in me coming out. But instead of using the dye job imitation eagle feathers or turkey feathers, I handpaint the feathers used for fletching. Right now I paint them to look like immature golden eagle feathers, aka the black tips. Eventually I want an airbrush to make the bald eagle feathers. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

As long as the adults are not interfering with the patrols, bring them on. IMHO 1 adult is to many IF they start interfering with the patrols, barring an emergency of course. MOM, Quick question about the troop: was the scout in a New Scout Patrol(NSP)? I ask b/c I've seen some similar in an NSP once. Luckily it was spaghetting and wouldn't lead to food poisoning. That situation and others is why I like mixed age patrols, older scouts partner up with the younger ones. But I'm an old fogey at heart.

Me personally, I think the handmade AOL awards are better than the bought ones. Yeah the bought ones are nice, but knowing someone spent the time and energy making something for you, just means more IMHO. I still have a homemade arrow that I was given at a ceremony, and it means a heck of a lot to me. But my pack buys the really nice, and IMHO expensive, AOL plaques. It started out when the pack had more money than it does now, and when we tried to cut back last year, it didn't happen. Some of the leaders feel it needs to continue. Hopefully when oldest gets ready to Crossover, I'll be in a better position to encourage some changes. I don't mind making arrows, and sis-in-law said she would even help make them. But I do need to keep an eye on her, she may try to use one with her longbow. Luckily she won't use Native American arrows with her Elven LOTR costume. EDITED: for got to add, I WANT COPIES OF THOSE TEMPLATES!!!!!!!!!!!! (and yes that is me screaming at ya )(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Actually the use of a mentor is a viable option, provided the mentor is a trainer. I know when I did Explorer Basic Leader Training way back in the day, it was the self study course. I was given a bunch of materials to read and learn. Then I had a nice long meeting with the Exploring Exec where we went over everything, and I became a trained AA. An aside, EMB, I was told that trained Explorer leaders were grandfathered in regards to being trained Venturing leaders, and this was Holmes predecessor saying this at NLTC if memory serves. However I'm now being told that I would not be considered a trained Venturing leader, despite keeping up to date in the program. So what's the deal? PM if ya want.

Only thing I would add to Bear dad's advice it make it two or three folks visiting.

Ditto I was also told no living representations at NCS, so animals and humans are out. But when we did a space themed CSDC, we did use battle droids, droidekas, droid tanks, etc. BUT thinking about it, a new shooting sports book came out, don't know if it's CS specific or all programs.

Mom, If you think I am denigrating CS leaders, please se my post over there. That is hardly the case. Rather I am trying to focus on the differences between the programs, and how hard it can be for a leader to make the transfer. My post on the other thread goes into details. Jeff, Sometimes it's not that easy to resist. There was a troop locally that has struggled in keeping leaders. They either move with their jobs, move on to Venturing, or are in name only. The SM was the one who held it together, and while initially did more that an SM is suppose to do according to today's literature, if you look at Green Bar Bill's 3rd ed. SMHB, he followed that, but it took sometime for the troop to get their "culture." Not only did he lose leaders, some parents wanted leaders with a more hands on approach, and they would leave for troops that were more adult led. He finally got to the point where the Scouts are running the troop. Best evidence of that is the 18yo who just celebrated his Eagle COH this past weekend, and already has his ASM patch and plans on being active and giving back as long as he is in town. BUT there was an influx of new Webelos into the troop last year, and there was another batch last month. And with those Webelos, came their parents. The Scouts who he has trained and worked with are outnumbered, and I am slowly seeing their influence eroded by the parents. Worse, the SM stepped down for family reasons, and the new SM was the CM 18 a year ago. While an ASM still, he doesn't have the influence he once had. My concern for that troop is that it will turn from the most scout-run, PM following troop in the district, to a troop just like the others. And the entire reason I had my son visit the pack first was A) the pack was active, and B) the pack fed into this troop. I hope and pray that the parents, who are now committee members, ASMs, and SMs, will see how it is suppose to be run. There is hope b/c the new SM and and one of the new ASMs have been mentored by the old SM, in addiion to a few of the MCs.

Nut, Problem with the note idea is that it is not official, wheras the BSHB is. When I council was reviewing my records after mt EBOR, even though all the dates of when I earned the Skill Awards, MBs, and ranks was listed and dated on my Eagle Scout Application, and I had my EBOR's signatures on the application and advancement report, they would not approve my Eagle b/c their records were messed up. In spite of me using my BSHB to fill out the stuff, they wanted a copy of my BSHB records to verify my Eagle, and update their records. No they didn't take the word on my CC, the previous dist. adv. chair., and the current dist. adv. chair. that I fullfilled all the requirements. They wanted a copy of the official records. Ditto with my scout. He passed his EBOR, but because the council records were still messed up, they had him still listed as a First Class Scout. They would not update his records using the Eagle Scout Application and Advancement Report with theh EBOR's signatures on it, all of which were based upon his BSHB. We had to turn in a copy of his BSHB records, and a copy of the ARs that we had on him, in order to correct their records and verify that he did earn Eagle. So I do respectfully disagree with you on the note idea. That said, I agree that it should be a teaching moment. I also agree that the BOR should go on, and that a new HB be filled out fast. If some of the requirements were based upon the older BSHB, I'd find someone with a blank copy of it, photocopy the old records section, and then use the troop's records, whether TROOPMASTER electronic records, or the old Troop Record Books that you got every year (which the council also would not accept BTW), to fill it in for the Scout's use.

Mom et al, I don't think anyone here, especially me, is trying ti denigrate or insult CS leaders moving up to Boy Scout leaders. Rather we are stating what our expereinces are with new BS leaders who were Cub Scout leaders. Even folks who SHOULD know better what the role of a BS leader is sometimes get involved when they should let the Scouts do it themselves. Yes I'm the guilty party on that one. I'll give you the most recent example of how I acted as a CS leader, instead of letting the PL or another scout, if not the scout involved, and handle the situation. I was visiting the camp where I was going to hold IOLS training, and the troop affilaited with my pack was there at the time. So I go visiting. While talking to the SM, one of the Scouts cuts himself, nothing major just a minor cut. Instead of letting the Scouts deal with it, again a minor cut needing a band aid, I stop the scout, whip out my first aid kit, and treat the Scout. Again it came automatically and I wasn't thinking. SM had a smirk on his face, and it was only after the Scout was walking away did I realize what I have done, and apologized. SM said, "Don't let the SPL catch you doing that." Another example was an OA meeting I attended. I had asked the OA to help out with a Cub Scout event and the chapter chief brought up the topic, but wasn't explaining it exactly like I did to him in our conversations before the meeting. Long story short I started to take over, until I got a gentle kick in the shins and a reminder that "this is OA {Eagle}, let the yutes run it." IMHO this is why there is the problem of former CS leaders becoming ASMs immediately: They have had multiple years of experience and training as a CS leader in order to take charge, that even once trained as an ASM, old habits die hard. I'll give you an example of old habits dieing hard. I was a lifeguard instructor who was trained in the "hand to hand combat" methods of lifeguarding and who helped train folks in those methods for 2 or 3 years. Then the new stuff getting rid of that stuff went away. Even though I was not only trained in the new methods, but was trained in how to teach them, but occasionally when in class, a situation would arise and I would automatically react using the old methods. I'd have to apologize to the students and have them redo the drill. The old stuff was so drilled into me from training and then teaching for 2-3 years, that 14 years after being a lifeguard when an incident happened, I immediately reacted without thinking using old school methods. So the take charge and do things mentality of CS leaders tends to get ingrained and can be hard to change. AND VICE VERSA. When I became a TCDL, I had a hard time adjusting from BS leader mode to CS Leader mode. I was so use to letting the scouts do their own thing, that doing things the right way with Tigers, even after not only training, but also teaching the course, I still reverted back to BS leader mode alot. What helped was mentoring and counseling from expereinced CS leaders. Here's my thoughts on this, and the topic of respect: Different programs of the BSA require different types of leaders and leadership methods. None of these leaders and methods are better than another, but are equally important because as a whole, they contrubute to our great movement. BS leaders need to keep current with CS methods and program in order for their troops to survive, just as CS leaders need to keep informed about Boy Scout program in order to keep their Cubs, esp. the Webelos enthused and active. Ditto with the Venturing leaders. Yes we are different, but we are like a giant jigsaw puzzle: without one you don't get the full view. We are a team, and if anyone starts putting down other members of the team, it hurts all of us. Ok off soapbox and I hope I clarified my psoition a bit