Eagle92

Read a good bit of the article and was getting disgusted and had to stop. There were some good points, but overall I think it misses the boat. Yes folks are living longer and working longer. And that is a factor for youth being unemployed. But I also know some of the attitude they have. I have kids showing up and expecting to have things done for them NOW! Things don't go their way, they get mommy or daddy to take over. And some of these "kids" are college students. When I was teaching college, I had a young student "you can't fail me, my job is paying for me to get my degree." Wouldn't listen to my advice, wouldn't do the extra credit I offered the class, just expected me to give them an 'A" On the opposite end was the adult student who needed a degree to keep their job. Had a conference with him and all he asked of me was "tell me what I need to do so I can pass this class, and I'll do it. My company is paying for me to get this degree, and if I don't pass I knot only have to pay them back, but I lose my job." While he didn't need the extra credit work, he did it anyway. BASE, Keep it up and don't get discouraged, no matter how hard it gets. YOU ARE MAKING A DIFFERENCE!

Please bear with me. It's been a long time sine I've taken human development courses as part of my education minor. It's also been a while since I took science courses. As others have stated, historically people became adults anywhere from 12-16 years of age. It's only been since the late 19th century if memory serves that the concept of 'adolescence" has come about and the theories, let's face it there is no actual proof, on the human brain not developing until age 25. Let look at some things. Look at the ages of religious ceremonies that mark adulthood and the age it occurs. I know as a Catholic, Confirmation for me was 13. Look at military service records from the colonial period all the way up to the US Civil war and you see 12 and 13 year olds on unit roosters, and sometimes even younger. In another thread on this topic, I mention what Washington, Franklin, and Jefferson, among others, did things at the ages of 18-26, that most people today would not dream of allowing folks in that age bracket do. Washington at 18 was a surveyor for Virginia. and a colonial of militia in his 20s. And let's not forget the Marquis de LaFayette, Custer, and a host of other 'boy generals" And we can go into antiquity. Alexander assumed the throne and began his conquest at age 18. In my opinion, the reason why many youth have no concept of responsibility is because SOCIETY as a whole doesn't encourage it. Let's face it, schools do not hold folks accountable like they did 30, 50, 100 years ago. Businesses which once took folks right out of high school now want folks to have associate degrees or higher. Look at some of the shows on TV where you got late 20 somethings and thirtysomthings acting like their still in HS. shall I go on? I know that my company has a lot of vets on staff. Now part of that is b/c we are a military town, but part of it is because the US military still give 17-25 year old responsibilities, with enforceable consequences. When they get out, they have the sense of responsibility and the discipline that is lacking in most of their non-military peers.

What council you are in is based upon the CO's address physical address. SO unless the boundary lines move, or your CO moves, you cannot switch councils. For example If your CO is in the area that is affected by the NC-SC state boundary being corrected, then yes you may be in a new council. FYI NC and SC have used GPS to correct the state line and a ton of folks are affected by it. A lot fo folks who moved specifically to SC to avoid the high taxes of NC now find themselves after 5, 10, 50 years living in the same place in SC now living in NC. Heck I thought I saw where one guy on TV that said half of his house is in NC, the other half in SC.

BREW, No problems. One of the common misconceptions in my neck of the woods is that the red vest is for Cubs only, and that is not the case. An I agree it's an awesome recruiting tool. Now if only I could get my Bear to sew his patches on the vest. And yep you are right, the CS "C", and the older "S" and "A" (man I'm showing my age) does go on the vest with all the pins on it. To bad they don't have a CS jacket thatteh "C" can go on like Varsity.

'Skip I'm just repeating what I was told by a long term UK pro, I'm guessing he was a pro since he was employed by the Scout Association, I met in '95, so it's second hand. But I was discussing it with him and he said that the SA was looking into going coed, but had not made an official decision about it. They were still researching the various aspects of it. Then the GG come out and start discussing how the SA was going coed, their concerns, etc. Once the GG announced it, the SA decided what the heck and went coed. Now he did say that the research was leaning towards going coed, but it was still in the research phase when GG made the annoucement. And apparently that announcement caused some havoc. And I can see why the GG were afraid. I know of one GG troop that had a Queen's Scout as an assistant leader. When the GG troop wasn't offering the challenges she thought the girls needed, she left taking half the GG troop with her to creat a SA troop that was all female. Again this was in '95 when units could be all male, all female, or coed, which I beleive has now changed on your side of the pond.

Brew, FYI the red vest was originally a BS item that now anyone can wear. The thing is there are more dodads now than back in the day. There was no CS outdoor activity award and pins back inthe day. You didn't have multiple colored Summer Time Pack award pins, just one. Scoutstuff didn't have monthly theme temp patches. And I can go on.

' Skip, I was told that the GG actually forced the issue on the Scout Association. What I was told is that they SA was looking into it and hadn't decided yet when the GG made some type of annoucement about SA goign coed, etc tec.

A few comments. 1) Why don't you be SPL, train the younger PLs yourself, and provide leadership? 2) While an SPL may not be needed, I'd recommend it anyway so that the SPL can mentor and guide the PLs, esp. if they are relatively new. Also can help plan troop events. But that is my opinion. 3)If you do #1 I'd get a copy of the 3rd ed. SM HB, both volumes, as well as some of the current leader training, and have a series of camp outs using them. Good luck.

AJ, The SM idea won't happen. BSA combined the 3 volumes of Troop Program features, and the Troop Resource Book into one book called WOODS WISDOM and it wasn't popular because of the price. By splitting up the book, you can but it in pieces and not all at once.

Base, True story. When I worked for National, for whatever reason my manager didn't want me to wear my Jambo patch on the scout shop uniform, even thought it is allowed. But I tried to comply anyway. When I took off the jambo patch. there was a "spot" that was highly visible where the patch was worn compared to the rest of the shirt. I got to wear the jambo patch.

That rule was originally designed for the original ladies' yellow blouse since it did not have a pocket on the shirt. When the newer ones came out, they kept the rule b/c the patch accented some ladies' anatomy too much. The the rule was included all CS leaders, including males, and all female Boy Scout leaders. For whatever reason the rule does not include female Venturers who may have the same "challenge." Doesn't matter for Sea Scouts as the are only allowed to wear one temp patch, the 100TH Sea Scout Anniversary Patch. Otherwise no temp patches for them. And here si the full rule Temporary insignia, including one current world Scout jamboree patch, centered on pocket. Only one temporary insignia may be worn at a time, and they are not required for correct uniforming ( emphasis mine). Cub Scout leaders and female leaders wearing the official uniform shirt or blouse may wear one temporary insignia centered above the Boy Scouts of America strip. So any CS leader, or A Female BS or Vent. Leader has the OPTION of one temp patch on teh pocket, or above the BSA strip. They just cannot wear 2 temp patches. Oh and some of us old fogey CS leaders do wear Jambo insignia.

A few things I thought of: 1) Framed photes with all the scouts' signatures on the back. 2) Camp T-shirt with signatures on the back.

KD, The Key and Training Award medals and knots are also used by Venturing Leaders, Commissioners, and District Committee folks. So aligning CMs, Trainers,ADLs, and Pack committee mermebrs with those awards above is actually what has already been done at the other levels. I think it's going to get VERY interesting when folks who have an anti-CS leader bias start seeing CS leaders with Training Award and Key knots.

Raise, Believe it or not, singing could be considered child abuse in some jurisdictions. You'd be surprised at what is considered "child abuse" that was just part of growing up back in the day. I know one lady who had the police called out b/c she let her daughter walk to school by herself. I read an article a few years back about a breastfeeding mom who had her child taken away because of some comments she said about breastfeeding. And I can go on. It's like people have no common sense anymore.

E, Not bias but fact: QUARTERMASTER IS HARDER TO EARN THAN EAGLE. There I said it, I have blasphemed against the BSA. But I was a Sea Scout, ok Sea Explorer, and I know what is involved. The QM requirements have not been watered down as some of the BS rank requirements have. I think part of that is b/c there are more appeals on BS ranks than Sea Scout ranks. Also Sea Scouts have been the black sheep of the BSA, and has been left almost entirely to it's own devices. And that autonomy has helped keep the Qm styandards.

S-F, I gotta disagree with ya on a few points. In reference to neurological development, I know that some research states that the human brain isn't fully developed until age 25. I also met a neurologist who said the article is boulderdash (not his words, but they are not printable on a Scout forum ) Basically he said a lot of factors go into brain development, and you can see elderly folks with the same type of brain patterns as the 20 somethings in the research. He also said environment plays a factor, and I also rememebr hearing about that in my genetics vs environment (nature v. nuture) arguments from HS and college science classes. And I think both factors have a part to play. Let's face it out society has basically extended adolescence to the mid 20s to mid mid 30s. Heck I have friends my age who still act like college students. Just compare the social norms from 30. 40. 50 100 years ago. You had 17 and 18 working, supporting families, etc. I think the problem is kids do not have enough responsibilities today. Whenever they get into a jam, or have a problem, heck sometimes before they even have a problem, mommy and daddy get involved. I'll give you examples some first hand, some second hand. One of my profs was threatened with a lawsuit b/c he gave a student a B for a grade. She complained to daddy who threatened with the lawsuit. In my job I deal with HS and college students. I've had parents call, stop by, etc to set up stuff for their child for their child's projects. These are 16-24 year olds who are more than capable of filling out paperwork, dropping it off, and communicating with me. heck I had one dad very angry at me b/c I scheduled his daughter to do a project when they are on vacation, and she gave me those specific dates. My personal favorite involved an accident I was in. I got hit by a lady in her late 20s, and she was older than me. First person she called after hitting me was her daddy. When he showed up, police had to stop him from interfering because he trying to help his "little girl." I think the reason why the folks are not behaving is because there is no expectation of them behaving, and when they do misbehave, no serious consequences.

I'd say August 1984 onwards. That was when the Sports program with all the sports belt loops and pins came out. Academics Program came out around 89 and they eventually merged into 1 program. I still remember selling the Sports "S" and Academic 'A"s. agree with Scouter 110%

HMMMM tricky. One of the best thank you's I ever had was having staff work with our troops one nite while all the adults in camp went to a lodge at another part of camp where the SE cooked us some steaks and gave us the opportunity to not only enjoy a great meal, but also talk about improving camp. Being a young, growing leader who has been on the COPE course that week, I ate two 16 ounce steaks as I was hungry. 3 years later when I was at PDL he remembered me b/c I ate two steaks. Besides paying for them, I think you got winners all along.

Kinda asinine if you ask me. And yes I can see some troop doing it. My troop did something like this, it was pole walking. We had 3' high upright poles to mark off the parking lot that we walked on. We didn't use spotter, but LeV is right, all this is is a COPE event.

Eng, Sorry but I disagree, you have a LOT to offer beside logistical support. You can be a merit badge councilor for Engineering, Sports or any number of the 100+ merit badges that may be related to what you do for a living or as a hobby. You got ideas for activities that the scout may be interested in. Shall I go on. And like the Beav said, what the old fogey is uncalled for.

Emb, Some camps have created their own camp staff POR patch, usually with the camp name and/or logo on it.. So many do it, Supply now makes an universal one. http://www.scoutstuff.org/camp-staff-emblem.html

Folks, I understand where ya coming from onthe singing matter. heck I sang a time or two, both b/c I forgot something and to help a shy scout out. I also do not see it as hazing. But national sees it otherwise.

BP, With no disrespect intended, but I would do the local training as you have been doing it and let them come anyway. Just don't water it down. EDITED: I'd love to get HA planning training(This message has been edited by eagle92)

In regards to "To be blunt, somtimes even as an adult - it seems like if you ain't Eagle, you ain't sh*t." as my old MSGT use to say: BULLKICKY Some of the best folks I've known and met, folks that not only would trust my life in a wilderness setting, but HAVE once upon a time in one incident, never got past First Class, Star, or Life. I've known folks who were "Life for life" who have more outdoor KSAs than some of the Eagles I've met. And yes I was shouting above

I admit, sometimes I had not welcomed the new folks like I should. Part of the problem with being in so long is that it is challenging sometimes to catch up with your friends at district and council events. One reason why I liked CSDC and my RT position: I get to meet new folks. As for how I view leaders, I say let them all have their say. Sometimes the new folks have great ideas, and sometimes they don't. Best example, new CSDC PD with 3 years scouting expereince, has some great ideas to improve camp. 110% behind him. A few ideas have minor challenges, mostly due to lack of NCS training while coming up with the ideas (that is getting solved this weekend). And some of his ideas I had major reservations about, and had talked to him privately about. But every leader has a part to play. Every leader brings KSAs to the table that can be used. Key is to "Praise in public and criticize in private." And when you do criticize, you need to do so in a positive, respectful manner. Some Boy Scout leaders don't realize this though.