Eagle92

'Fish, Here's my answer FWIW, let the Scouts advance at their own pace. Let their PL or TG and the older Scouts deal with working with them and keeping track of what they do. Let the PLC do their job of creating a calendar and schedule of activities. Someone either here or elsewhere came up with a very regimented FCFY schedule that basically repeated everything, same set of campouts, same locations, etc. every year. Now grant you you will have repeat camp outs, You did not do Vicksburg during the Thanksgiving 3 day weekend, you better have another awesome trip plan to compensate . But the regimentation of that schedule I saw was BORING to 2nd and 3rd year scouts, if they had any left. Again BP said it best with the quote above, and advancement will come naturally with a strong outdoor program. Heck I remember signing off stuff after seeing the scouts doing the requirements without realizing it. And that has happened to me. I was out having fun one weekend only to find out I earned MB at the next COH.

OOE, One of my friends in the OA is a Scouting Living historian. He has either actual uniforms, or reproductions, from a variety of eras. His goal is to strive for authenticity, and he wears complete period uniforms. I don't see a problem with it as long as it is part of a display or event. Me personally I love his old Vigil sashes that have the oversized triangle. Also like his repro black sash ( and not the one national came out with, but repro 1915-1920s).

Ok I admit I have mixed emotions on this topic. I've seen it where folks got MBs that have me scratching my head, and I have been part of one MBU that I was complimented by another MBC on the quality of the work we did. Here are my thoughts. #1 Get good, quality MBCs who know their topic, can bring a passion to it, and cna really get the Scouts involved. #2 Limit the number of sessions to two: one before lunch and one after. Also some MBs WILL need to be one all day session. #3 Agree with Basement, LIMIT CLASS SIZE. To take it a step further, have a team of MBCs working the class. #4 Clearly communicate what need to be done prior to class, i.e. paperwork, and also communicate what MBs will be earned, which ones will be earned if p/w is done prior to class, and which MBs will be partials.

This topic is on deck again? In regrads to FCFY, here are my comments. #1 Came out in 1989 based upon research by national on how to keep members stay in Scouting. Research showed that Scouts who get FC in a year tend to stay in longer, hence the push. But IMHO what the research did NOT show was why Scouts get FC in a year. Based upon my expereince, you need a "Hiking and Camping Troop" that has an active outdoor program. Oh and the original research, don't know if they have done another survey since, was based upon the 1979-1989 rank requirements that had time requirements between Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class. Also First Aid MB was required for FC. National did away with the time requirements to facilitate FCFY. #2 IMHO units that focus solely on FCFY have problems. I've seen units that have Star and Life Scouts unable to light a fire, boil water and cook spaghetti. I've seen Star Scouts unable to tie a bowline, and in this particular case he first learned the bowline as a Bear Cub Scout. Again from my expereince these units do not have the outdoor skills traditionally associated with the BSA. Instead of focusing on the boys growing physically, mentally, and morally through an outdoor program that challenges them, the unit focuses on advancement to the detriment of everything else. Proof of that can be seen by the average age of their Eagles, usually in the 14-15 yo range, who then leave Scouting after Eagle. And IMHO that is when the fun picks up a notch. 3)The idea of "One and Done," i.e. as soon as the scout does something it get signed off and he never have to worry about it again, is a result of FCFY. I've been thinking about when I first noticed the BSA started having problems with scouts who are FC, Star, Life, and Eagle, who cannot do basic Scoutcraft, and it's in the mid to late 1990s. Not grant you that is when I got active as an adult, and active in the OA and district level, but I do not remember having to reteach basic Scoutcraft prior to that time. I believe the BSHB needs to restate that scoutcraft skills need to be mastered before signing off. AND I concur with the Guide to Advancement's statement that the 'badge represents what the scout is capable (emphasis mine)and is not a reward for what he has done." #4 BP said "Advancement should come as naturally as a suntan, something that just happens in the outdoors." If you have a "hiking and camping troop" that not only has a strong outdoor program doing things every month, but also a program that uses those skills repeatedly, FC within a year will happen. #5 Green Bar Bill said "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING," the current BSHB is a misquote just do the math to prove it , and "SCOUTING IS OUTING" #2

'Fish, A few Comments. 1) In addition to the Troop Record Book there is also a Patol Record Book which is better for patrols and found here: http://www.scoutstuff.org/patrol-record-book.html 2) If your crossovers are in a mixed age patrol (my personal preference)why are you signing off on rank? That's a PLs job. 3) If you guys are in a NSP, why isn't the Troop Guide signing off as that is his job? 4) Why are you not sitting in your chair drinking your cup of coffee? EDITED: Reread the OP and need to add to make relevant to the post. Keeping track of the records is 2 folks responsibility: The Scout and the PL or TG as the case may be. A 3rd may be added, the patrol scribe. Adults do not need to keep track of that as that is a youth responsibility.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Matt, You're not doing anything incorrectly, unless you are signing off as soon as they do it, and then continue working with them until they learn the skill. In the older BSHBs and literature, Scouts were expected to "master the skills" before getting them signed off. Some how between the time I was a Scout, and today, the idea of "One and Done," i.e. the scout does the skill one time and it gets signed off and he never has to do it again, has come about. And this is incorrect. Even the Guide to Advance, G2A, states that the badge a scout wears represents what he is capable of doing and NOT a reward for past achievement ( all bold and caps for emphasis) or words to that effect. There was a discussion on One and Done a whiles back. It's a good read.

While this is an old thread, this was something I just went over at RT. This is what my council wants us to do, so your results may very. Boy Scouts, Sea Scouts, Varsity, and Venturers: when rank or recognition that requires a BOR is needed AND the signatures on the Advancement Report (AR), we are told to have a paper copy of the at the time of the BOR so that the BOR members may sign it. That copy must be sent to the council office. Once the Scout, Sea Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer completes the BOR, you can go ahead and sill out the SCOUTNET info that nite. BUT A PAPER COPY WITH THE SIGNATURES MUST ALSO BE SENT IN (caps for emphasis) Cub Scouts: Since no BOR is needed, fill it out as they earned it.

Base, If that is happening and there is an accident or incident, there wil be major problems. Part of the reason for NCS is to have a set of leaders who are trained to do it AND knwo the standards. Is it rocket science, not it isn't. BUT in today's legalistic sue happy world, I'd be very leary. But as has been stated, a lot of times DEs have the NCS cert.

I personally like my woggle made out of clothelin in a Turk's head knot. NO PROBLEMS SLIDING.

There's such a thing as a bad nite in a tent?!?!?!?!?!!? Summer camp my 3rd year I took the absolute worst tent in the campsite b/c I was going to do HA program backpacking from Mon-Fri morning. Since I was going to be out the entire week. I thought I'd it wouldn't matter if I slept in a lousy tent one nite. WWWWWEEEEEELLLLLLL it rained, it soaked through the canvas and dripped all over the sleeping bag. Miserable waking up, but worse I had to pack it up wet for the HA program. Once we got to the first station, about 1.5- 2 miles, I was able to hang it up while we did thework on the trail. But it didn;t dry in time fo the firsat nite and I slept in a emergency blanket going crinkle crinkle all nite.

SE, Only for Star or Life if memory serves will the leadership project work. Eagle has a specific list of PORs.

AJR, YES. You can turn in the advancement report with all the BOR members signatures for his palm.

One thing I found helps is binders. We had one guy nicknamed "Binder Boy" becasue he ahd a binder for everything. However, I have the same problem you do, and he helped me with the binder idea which works. Apparently he had the same problem, and binders helped.

Fed, Whatcha mean it aint official? I have some square neckers I made, primarily for dancing but I do wear them on occasion.

Just repeating what I was told from when I was a DE and had to make the West pitch.

Gunny, You ain't joking about staff taking the swim test. At my old camp, everyone, including all the lifeguards on the aquatics staff, had to take their swim test. I don't remember if all Aquatic Directors took the test or not, but I know one did to set the example.

We use Packmaster and like it.

My work employs a test, and if it is the same one or similar: READ ALL OF THE QUESTIONS BEFORE ANSWERING!!!!!!! (emphasis) I had one person who took the test 4 times. After the first three, she was rejected and didn't understand why. I looked at the test and thought she might not be reading each question completely as the test asks the same questions over and over, but restates it enough to make the answers different. 4th time she got hired.

In fact, at summer camp, IMHO, we should send the new adults to Trail to First Class program and have them get their SPL sign off on IOLS requirements. As long as it is NOT "one and done" I can live with that. I know in the IOLS syllabus is said that instructors could hand out sheets to have the participants get signed off as they do the skills. I think that is one reason why "One and Done" exist and why Sailing complains of having to teach Eagles their basic knots again.

The endowment fund is a separate account from the operations budget. Money in the endowment cannot be used AT ALL, only the interest earned form the account. Purpose of the endowment was to create a stable source of income, interest from the endowment, and the push for councils to create endowments came when UW funding started to be lost.

'732, Good question. The following list is POSSIBLE, list of reasons. 1) SM or other person conducting the test is under pressure to have the scout pass the test and signs it off. Only when the scout takes Swimming MB at camp afew weeks after taking the test with the unit, he cannot pass the swim test,let alone do requirements for the MB ( told that happened a lot and why my council wants a copy of the cert attached to their form AND the AD has the right to reject the form). 2) SM or other person conducting the test cannot recognize a "strong manner" and thinks the person who barely makes it has passed when someone who is trained can tell the person is on the verge of drowning. 3) Lawsuits have arisen and national wants certified folks doing these tests for legal reasons. I have mixed emotions on this and some of the MBs now. Trust me I know how it important it is to have someone properly trained and with expereince to do these MBs, but having a certification does not mean the person is capable of doing it. Unfortunately I have seen someone get certified as a lifeguard who I would NOT trust to save my life. Heck in some instances I'd rather have someone I FAILED Lifesaving MB do the rescue, or someone who failed BSA Lifeguard, than that certified "lifeguard." An aside: scout that I failed couldn't do one exercise, getting the person out of the water. Had a long conversation with him and SM on the matter,and told them to work with a local MBC to get that one skill down pact. And I did tell him I wuld trust him with my life b/c out of all the students he was the best one with all the other skills. He couldn't help that he was a dwarf.

Base, I agree it is ripe for abuse. But I also know someone who had a similar situation to OUTDOORS. I do not know the full story behind him not getting Eagle, but I have my suspicions.

Base, Good news, the West, Heritage, and Founders' money goes into the council's endowment fund, so it CANNOT BE TOUCHED! (caps for emphasis). The money accrues interest, and the interest only can be used. Now someone with financial planning expereince tell me if I'm wrong, but once the interest is not used the year it is earned, it then becomes part of the endowment, so it cannot be used as well. My council was fortunate in that for years it did not touch the endowment and it grew and grew with interest being added every year. Now in these hard times, the interest is helping.

Ok folks this may have been posted already, but as I mentioned in another thread I am in a lazy mood since I am off for the next 4 days. Where is a good place to find carbon, stressing CARBON, steel knives? I need to buy three of them for my boys, and if reasonable a fourth one for me. I know if I buy one thing for my oldest son, the younger two will expect the same thing. So I would like to get three identical knives now. Why carbon steel? I'm an old fogey and prefer the ability to keep a sharp edge than a rust proof knife that you have to sharpen after every 4 or 5 cuts. A sharp knife is a safe knife. Thanks in advance.

Oh one more thing about West Fellowship. I was told, don't remember who or when though, that the West Award and the follow ons ; Heritage Society and Founders' Circle, were created to recognize big donors with those awards instead of Silver Beavers. Folks in the field were complaining that big donors kept getting the SBs and not the folks in the field. Again this is what I was told.