Eagle92

Pierre (Sorry it's too painful to call you M. DuMonde as I am now out of CDM coffee), Treat them as you would anyone else. Have samples ready to give out, and do some research on what the Voyagers and Coer du Bois, especially the younger ones did, and talk about that. If memory serves, BOYS' LIFE did a graphic carton of BROKEN BLADE. Also if there is anything you are willing to let the Cubs do, esp. the Webelos, let them do it. You will find that they like the "OUTING IN SCOUTING!" Ok must prep my Dutch oven for Bear son to use next weekend.

Sailing, Again it's a SR-7 thing. Only awarded once a year at their annual training weekend in VA. Hopefully when Oldest is of age, he will be a Sea Scout, and the OotGD will still be around.

What i find kinda funny is that there are no simulated firearms, but you can play Manhunt, Civil War, Capture the Flag, Flag Raiders, etc using flashlights and it's not a problem. An on another note, would a Star Trek the Next Generation Phaser be OK since it's not a firearm?

Officially you can't do it. I disagree with the no lasertag/ paintball b/c I know how much fun laser tag was. Prior to the ban in place, one OA chapter had a laser tag lock in since the adviser was the owner of the local arena. Also in the UK, where there is no such ban, one of the camps I worked at had the "service crew" go out to a nearby arena and play as a team building exercise. HEHEHE that was a BLAST

Beav, Gotcha and understood. Agree 100% with the comments on corporations and authors. A great author will transport you to the world they created, or in Bill's case, get you actually into it.

And that's how it's done! EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SP, You are so right. Units do vary in their culture. I remember back in the day that the culture might be differences in activities and how things were done. But when a Scout was a certain rank, there were certain expectations as to what he could do. Unfortunately that has changed. Now the culture is how fast you do advancement. I met an Eagle Scout who couldn't tell me anything about some of the things he did to earn the MBs he was wearing. I met Star and Life Scouts who didn't knot how to pack a backpack properly or knew what to bring on a camping trip. Part of that IMHO is the BSA taking out the Outing out of ScOuting; kinda sad that instead of using the BSA handbook your student manual for IOLS, you have to create your own pamphlet b/c basic outdoor info IS missing. But a part of it is the "one and done" mentality that I believe has come about since FCFY came out in 1989 Cricket, Hopefully this is a good conversation, and not a rant on my part. Scouting has been wonderful to me, even during the dark times I was a DE. I want Scouting to continue to be the best program for youth, but I am seeing it make some of the same mistakes it made in '72. I know scouting needs to change with the times to keep current, but some of the changes I am seeing are doing away with the foundation of Scouting: the OUTING.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Must respectfully disagree with 1 comment Beavah made: ... and were a departure from 80 successful years of scouting program. In 1972, BSA took the "Outing out of Scouting" and IMHO doing a lot of the stuff that they are doing today, i.e. taking the outdoors out of scouting. It was a major catastrophe for the BSA, and Green Bar Bill had to come out of retirement in '78 to write the '79 ed. BSHB and put the outing back into Scouting. So I would ammend the comment to "a departure of 74 successful years of scouting program and 1 failed 6 year period that looks as if we are revisiting." but that is my opinion.

not a lawyer, but couldn' the parent's group form a 503(b) non-profit and name themselves something else, i.e. Friends of Youth?

In regards to military and naval uniforms, BSA does have permission to use USN and USCG uniforms with modifications. Sea Scouts are the best example of that as they are authorized to shop at exchangesf or their uniforms. But if memory serves, back in the BSA did have approval, and it was not rescinded even by the quote you mention, as the original BSA uniforms were US military surplus (and used the same vendor as the US Army) and elelments of BSA uniforms over the years did have a stiking similarity to US military and naval uniforms.

Cricket, We may be talking past each other I assumed, and I know what happens when you do , from your posts that you sign off on skills the same night that the scout learns them. Unfortunately I've seen it happen, and IMHO the IOLS syllabus encourages that mentality. Also with new BS leaders who were CS leaders, they may beleive that is how things are done since the 2010 CS program encourages that model. My thoughts on testing is let them have a chance practice and use the skills until they are confident they have mastered the skills. THEN you test them. Exception to that is when you see them using the skill with confidence and they haven't asked ya yet to sign off. As to this quote you cite Section 4.2.1.0 Well-delivered programming will take boys to First Class in their first year of membership. Advancement is a simple matter when the four steps or stages outlined below are observed and integrated into troop programming. Yes a program should provide, stressing PROVIDE, the opportuntity for scouts to advance to FC in a year, but it doesn't mean it will happen. The scout still needs to learn the skill, be tested in it, etc. etc. I'll give you one I know first hand. My troop was a 'hiking and camping troop," and most folks would get FC within 15- 18 months of joining ( remember this was back in the day with time requirements for T-2-2 so it could take a little extra time) because we taught the skills and used them repeatedly. But we had one scout who was forced to be a Scout. Spent 3 or 4 years as a Tenderfoot, and he only got Tenderfoot because he got his book signed off and an impromptu BOR on a camping trip (aside: after that camp out he "lost his book"). As for this quote: 4.2.1.1 The Scout Learns He learns by doing, and as he learns, he grows in his ability to do his part as a member of the patrol and troop. As he develops knowledge and skill, he is asked to teach others; and in this way he learns and develops leadership. I didn't say teaching was necessary for every skill in order for them to learn. And I admit in possibly misinterpreting the "and in this way he learns" part as it may specifically mean leadership. BUT I do know some MBs, First Aid comes immediately to mind, where a scout has to teach skills in order to meet the MB requirements. In regards to seasonal topics like SSD and SA, that is where an active program helps. I have found that Scouts learn SSD and SA if they see it in practice. I admit they might know the proper BALLSPDG and QPSPBSPED terminology a year later when the topic reappears, but they can explain what needs to be done because they have seen in action. They reflect on the trainings and trips we did the previous summer and can tell you exactly what we did. In regards to leadership, that comes at the S-L-E levels so i'm actually not talking about it. T-2-1 needs to focus on the basics. Once you get the foundation down, then you can expand. That's why the HA bases and Jambo have a First Class rank requirement, it is assumed that they scout knows the basic outdoor skills and is ready to expand upon them. As I have repeatedly stated here and elsewhere, if you have an active outdoor program that allows scouts to use the basic skills over and over and over 10-12 times a year, you don't have these problems. Heck even the resentful, wisecrack 3 year Tenderfoot knew his outdoor skills b/c of repeated use. And thinking about it, as much of a joker as he was, I am willing to lay money that if things hit the fan, he could handle himself. In fact upon reflection he did. But that is another story for another thread.

Beavah beat me to some of it Yes with an active program it is possible to get FC within a year. Even back in the day when time requirements were around for T-2-1 and First Aid MB was required for FC rank. But as others mentioned, it wasn't one and done. Scouts learned the skills, practiced the skills, and then were tested before signoff. Sometimes the "test" was seeing the skill in use and the scout having no problems doing the skill. Other times after a month of so of practicing and working on the skill, you ask on the monthly camp out, "ok do XYZ for me." and if they could do it, you sign off. As for not signing off after they have just been shown how to do something, no it is not adding to requirements. That's only a part of the learning process. And teaching the skills IS mentioned in the G2A as a method of learning. G2A pp 19-20 outlines the entire 4 step advancement process 4.2.1.1 The Scout Learns (all bold in original) He learns by doing, and as he learns, he grows in his ability to do his part as a member of the patrol and troop. As he develops knowledge and skill, he is asked to teach others; and in this way he learns and develops leadership. 4.2.1.2 The Scout Is Tested The Scoutmaster authorizes those who may test and pass the Scout on rank requirements. They might include his patrol leader, senior patrol leader, an assistant unit leader, a troop committee member, another Scout, or the Scoutmaster himself. Merit badge counselors teach and test him on requirements for merit badges. 4.2.1.3 The Scout Is Reviewed After he has completed all requirements for a rank, the Scout meets with a board of review. For Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, and Life ranks, and Eagle Palms, members of the unit committee conduct it. See Particulars for Tenderfoot Through Life Ranks (or Palms),8.0.2.0. The Eagle Scout board of review is held in accordance with National Council and local council procedures. 4.2.1.4 The Scout Is Recognized When the board of review has approved his advancement,the Scout deserves recognition as soon as possible. This should be done at a ceremony at the next unit meeting. The certificate for his new rank may be presented later, during a formal court of honor. As for not testing Scouts, if you are not testing them, then you are not following G2A, as "The Scout Is Tested" is the second step of the process. The key to testing IMHO is to allow the scout to practice, practice, practice to really learn the skill. As for allowing the scout to teach the skills, that is a leanring method mentioned in the G2A, and I have used it in the past.. I'll give you an example of a scout learning a skill and helping others learn it. One of my Bears has been practicing his knots with older brother. When we were doign the Knots den meeting, he was helping not only his fellow Cubs, but a few of the dads, including his own, learn the knots. Did he know every single knot required for sign off, no he didn't. But the knots he did know, he was helping others with. And other Cubs helped him learn the knots he was having trouble on. Best analogy on testing and "one and done" I have is school: you wouldn't give a kid a test on a subject he learned 10 minutes before would you? Scouting is "Experiential Learning" and the G2A has the following to say Experiential learning is the key: Exciting and meaningful activities are offered, and education happens. Learning comes from doing. For example, youth may read about first aid, hear it discussed, and watch others administer it, but they will not learn it until they practice it. p 8 On a different note, I can see another source for the "One and Done" mentality besides FCFY: Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills Syllabus. Sorry can't find the exact page in the pdf I have, but somewhere in it there is the comment to have a checklist of skills being taught and sign the leaders off after they do them during training. One weekend is not enough time to really learn the basics well enough to go out completely on your own, which is what a First Class Scout should be able to do. Let's face it how many folks would allow anyone with just 1 weekend of outdoor training take a group of scouts camping? heck How many folks with just 1 weekend of outdoor training would be comfortable leading a group of youth in the outdoors? We expect leaders to be able to do the T-2-1 skills, why can we not hold the Scouts, who ARE in charge, to the same standards?

Kahuna, It's a SR7 "Cardinal Wardroom" creation. http://sasserrc.tripod.com/cardinalwardroom/index.htm Specific to the Order of the Golden Dragons http://sasserrc.tripod.com/cardinalwardroom/id37.htm Hope it helps.

Cricket, A few comments. 1) Yes the requirements say "tell, do," but that does not mean you have to immediately sign off on it after one time. I admit I am disappointed in the current BSHB removing the phrase that was in previous books, "master the skills" in regards to advancement. But I am going to paraphrase some elements of the Current Guide to Advancement. A) The badge represents what the scout CAN DO, not a reward for what he has done (caps for emphasis) B) Teaching skills is a way of learning and reinforcing the skills. So you can wait until the Scout works with others on the skills before sign offs. 2) As others have said, a strong, active program that uses the skills on a monthly basis will reinfoce the skills and allow them to master them in quick time.

I remember back in the day if you earned the AOL, you automatically got you Scout Badge, and had the 2 month time requirement for Tenderfoot waived,but that is no more. As others have stated, once in Boy Scouts, you start over. And "Do Your Best" is no longer the standard. According to the GtA, the standard is that the "badge represents what the Scout is capable of doing, not a recognition for what he has done." or similar word. Be firm, fair, and diplomatic about it. Don't embarrass the scout, but let others work with him. Troop guide would be a good one, or another new scout who can help out.

BIG RESPONSIBILITY! (emphasis not shouting.) Here are some things I've done, seen done, and have heard about. 1) Conduct unit elections. 2) Conduct Call Out Ceremonies. 3) Teach Indian Lore MB (ceremony and dance team folks usually) 4) Coordinate work/conservation projects during camp with projects on the OA's to do list. 5) Conduct a Native American themed campfire program. 6) Conduct a Powwow. 7) Give the staff a nite off. OA folks would come to camp before dinner, cook, serve the food, clean up, etc giving the staff the nite off. THIS REQUIRES COMMITMENT (emphasis again) I've seen this work out some weeks and not others. 8) OA Ice Cream Social. Seen two version of this. One was members only and a chance to get folks who "sash and dashed" back involved. The other was for everyone and had info and displays on the lodge's activities. GOOD LUCK! ( and this time I am screaming at ya ) You got a very important job and I wish you well in it!

SP, Part of the camp customer service initiatives at the time was having a newspaper, and not a camp one either, delivered to each campsite along with a large thermos of coffee. So when the adults heard Cowboy Mouth's version of the official Louisiana State song, "You Are My Sunshine," they new what was coming. I remember one unit had their adults lined up with mugs out along the road waiting for me. THAT was a fun unit to work with. Short, That's good to know. I'm guessing a DE can fill the spot b/c of the "wreath of service" and what not. Actually I was #4 starting out, then moved to #3. CD, PD, Business Manager, then me. However when BM went out on sick leave, I movedup a notch.

Wanted to give ya a heads up. Stopped at a national scout shop today and found our from tomorrow to the 19th they will have a "anything that fits in the bag sale" if memory serves, you buy the $.99 eco freindly bag, and everything you can fit in it barring advancement and books, is 25% off. If it wasn't a 2 hours RT, I go back for what I got Saturday.

Eamonn reminded me of conversations I had once upon a time. A Finn I was working with in the UK said she was coming to the US the next summer and wanted to know where I live to visit. I asked where they were going, they said New York City, but they would rent a car and drive to New Orleans. Didn't have the heart to tell her it was 21 hour drive. Also I remember talking to a camp staffer from the sister camp in Oxford. He was telling me how he had a long drive to staff the event we were having, and had a long drive home. It was 1.5 hours one way. That's how far my camp was from the council office back home, without rush hour. Heck I was driving and hour one way at one point for a job. As you can guess the USA has a multitude of different environments based upon what you are looking for. We are so huge, that I know of many Americans who have never traveled outside the USA b/c they didn't need to to do what they wanted.

I'd talk to him about it. Advantages: he's with his friends Gives extra time to work on Webelos Advancement Disadvantages: He may become bored repeating some of the stuff he has done already He may get the itch to camp with his buddies in Webelos II after they cross over. Less Outdoor Stuff

Correct they are a MC, Committee member. make sure you have 2 signature on the account. Jerry

Please tell me that having a NCS trained commissioner is a NOT a mandatory standard. When I was Camp Commissioner, I was a DE assigned to summer camp and my job was to be the work with the troops and be the problem solver. I did campsite inspections, met with the leaders daily, deliver coffee and newspaper each morning in the campsites, and if any problems arose, deal with them.

What would you like to do?

Moose aint joking. I am actually finding out stuff here and some of the sites I mentioned before the pros do, including in one instance the SE!

Can I interject. I don't agree with using paintballs in catapults and what not. TOOO DARN MESSY! Trust me did that 1 time, and the ranger nearly had my hide as well as all the others. It was a bear to clean up. As for Cubs, they do want the OUTING IN SCOUTING. I had Cubs chomping at the bit to go camping. I did as many meetings as possible outside and they hated going inside. I also lost one family between Tigers and Wolves b/c "you don't camp enough."