Eagle92

Base, Must respectfully disagree with your comment that "because while hurtful it wasn't that serious" because it IS serious. They are not following the Scout Oath and Law for starters. And it can lead to bullying, hazing, violence. Trust me I know. I went to one "exclusive" private school in New Orleans where the local myth is that myth is that "you gotta have money, be the son of an alumnus, or be a genius to get in." How I got in I don't know. I was harassed because I was one of the many work study students attending the school, as well as some of my friends in the same position. A few fights did break out over the taunting. Funny thing is some of those that taunted have had 'challenges" as adults. I am going back to the OP and ad another metric: How well the scouts interact with one another on the patrol, and troop level. I was fortunate in that my troop took all comers. Rich or poor, parents in a mansion or parent in prison, we took you. While we knew who had money and who didn't, we didn't let it affect us. We had inter-patrol rivalries, which is normal, and those rivalries didn't cross over any serious boundaries. BUT when it came time to work as a troop, look out. OR if another troop was causing problems with one of our scouts, WATCH IT. Best case was a troop raiding the shower house, stealing towels and clothing, and then tossing them all over the trails. That didn't happen again

Take a look at current Sea Scout uniforms, esp. the post 2002 uniform regs that stook some traditional Sea Scout insignia off the uniforms. Not only do they look like USN uniforms, but Ships are authorized to buy uniforms from USN exchanges.

5 ear reminded me of what one scout's mom did: Velcro. She sewed on a Velcro swatch on the pocket, and matching side onto the patch. Only patch sewed on the pocket was his Eagle. Caveat, his friends in the troop did hassle him a bit. As soon as the new patch was on the pocket, we would joke around and say, '"You don't deserve this" and snatch the patch off the pocket. Again this was his friends and peers. One of the younger scouts tried that when he was Star or Life, and we were not amused. EDITED: 5year, you wouldn't have happened to work at a certain camp in MS which has the staff motto of "You can't fix it, Duct it. can't Duct it, chuck it." by any chance?(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do. Do not get pressured into changing results, it will only cause greater problems. I speak with some expereince on this matter after one incident when I was a CA. Grant you I was elected under the old rules where only 1/2 the number of eligible scouts were allowed to be written on the ballot. But I didn't get into the OA until my 3rd year eligible. 1st year wasn't a big disappointment as Those who did get in were truly worthy. Second year was tremendous disappointment. Between first and second election, I was the ASPL who did more SPL duties than anything and had a lot of support. One of the guys who got in did so only b/c the new scouts who had just joined the troop a month before, and eligible to vote, had his little brother in the den who campaigned for him. Big brother never did the Ordeal and shortly dropped out after getting Eagle. Third time was the charm. Got in, got Brotherhood a year later, eventually got super active in AIA and ceremonies and became a Vigil. So do let the scout get down.

And I thought I had it tough letting go. How are the scouts treating you? If they see you as SM, you are good. If they don't talk to the former SM. Gotta remember, after 30 years, he has a lot of relationships with scouts and their families. Those relationships do take time to build.

Base, The folks who made these comments "Your scouts will be serving my scouts meals when they become adults" are not scouts and scout leaders but idiots, to put it VERY mildly. The actual choice of words I would use are not appropriate for a scouting forum. Also a Big THANK YOU for taking care of your scouts.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

I didn't know they had plastic Boy Scout rank patch holders, esp. since there is no button on the left pocket that the rank goes on, unless you got one of the older shirts. Sewing is a life skill that WILL be used by the scout at some point besides sewing on patches. I remember fixing packs that ripped, as well as pants that were turned into shorts while on a week long trip.

In regards to the sitting inside comment, I stand by what I say. Yes we as leaders do spend time indoors mentoring and working with them, and that is part of the process. BUT we also look for every opportunity to take them outside. Even Basement is trying to send kids into the outdoors as evidenced by sending kids to camp. Let's face it the kids wants the outdoors. That's where they learn and grow best.

It's up to the wearer to determine which knot goes where according to the IG. Me personally I wear the youth related knots first sicne this is a youth program.

Deaf, If you are asking what FCFY means, it = First Class in the First Year. A program that national started in 1989 which tries to get scouts to FC rank within 12 months of joining. Me personally I wouldn't use thenumber of Scouts who get FC within a year as a metric. Is it possible with scouts "mastering the skills" as the old handbooks use to say, or as the current Guide to Advancmwent ( GtA or G2A) being able to do the skills represented by the badge worn? Absolutely. BUT you need to have a real go getter, have a very active program, etc etc.

2Cub, You think that is bad, see the otehr thread where the council limits a pack to 2 family camp outs/year outside of the council run ones.

Kudu, Nah, character and leadership comes via the Patrol Method. Working together, doing what your suppose to, being a team player, leanring from failure and advserities, etc is character development. As for leadership development, sometimes being a good leader means being a good follower: supporting your PL and workign with the younger members of the patrol. As for "Total hours sitting indoors, side by side with adults of character"? ROTFLMAO Glad I wasn't drinking coffee when I read this. SCOUTING IS OUTING!!!! EDITED: I just remembered who said the adults of character comment and am now very depressed. Hopefully going home from work, seeing the 4y.o. with his "backpack" ready to go "camping" this weekend, seeing the 6y.o. doing the same thing, and of course the 8.yo who is already packed, has the menu planned for Fri and Sat. will cheer me up. 4 Days to Camp!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Best thing my old troop did was at scout shows. We built a "Bosun's Chair." Picture a 25-30' high tripod tower and a 15-20' high tripod tower about 50' apart. Stretch mil spec rope or wire rope, whichever he had access to that year, between the two and anchored, if possible by cars but otherwise with a series of 3' steel pegs pounded with sledgehammers. Attach a Rosa Gold pully mechanism with a chair underneath, and you got and instant attention getter with about a 30 minute wait. Unfortunately BSA no longer permits it unless you get it certified by a COPE inspector; everyone wears brain buckets, harness, and belay lines; and there is a belayer. Next best thing is a "wilderness survival" campout. Divide the Webelos into the patrols, have them review the knots they are suppose to know and teach them some lashings, and have them spend the morning working with the patrols on the patrol shelter. Afternoon is spent doing interpatrol competitions using lashings and having fun. This was so successful the first year, and also so much fun, that the PLC has been using this for years. And the Webelos take to survival camping like ducks to water. Heck my oldest saw a video of his Den Chief building a survival shelter in the snow, and he spent I don't know how many months inthe back yard building and rebuilding survival shelters. Last week the 4 and 6 year olds got into it at a museum. They had an area where you could build a shelter using netting, poles, and velcro ( My first thought seeing the set up wa "WHAT NO LASHINGS!?!?!?!?! ). They had a blast, oldest was a little bored b/c "It's not a real shelter, you're not even using rope." 4 More days to camp!

1 more thing. That document is 4 years old. I'd contatc the council office to see A) if an updated list of approved camps is available and B) if the policy still exists.

Personally I think the 2 campouts /year is HORSE HOCKEY! But if you include the other council camps into the schedule, you may have something. Curious to know who is on your council camping committee, as I bet you have none with recent CS expereince on it with those rules. I know we have folks on ours who say "Cubs don't need to camp." And yes that is an actual quote that I personally heard form one member. I know I actually lost a family b/c they said we didn't camp enough. Now I do have a legitimate way to put the 'OUTING IN SCOUTING:" HIKING! I'd look at all the local parks and see which ones have trails and facilities that families may be interested in using. Make day trips out of it.

I'll be honest, I like JTE to a degree because it is more program oriented than previous programs. And I think the goals are a good measurement, but the pressure to meet them makes it a bit overboard. Some of my personal guides as to a a good troop. 1) Are they a "Camping and Hiking Troop?" How often are doing the outdoor, fun stuff that are the very foundation, even more so than the Patrol Method IMHO, and is what keeps the Scouts involved and interested? As GBB said, "Outing is three-fourths of ScOuting." I would like at least 10 camp outs and/or hikes a year and 1 summer camp week. 2) Are they youth led? Does the PLC do the planning, and run the meetings and camp outs? Is the SPL really in charge or is he a mouthpiece for the SM? Yes I think the Patrol Method is second to the outdoors (Sorry Kudu, but that is me.)BUT it is a foundation of scouting as the patrol is the foundation of a troop. It is with the patrol that scouts work and grow together physically, mentally, and morally. It is with the patrol that Scouts learn about the importance of working together. It is withthe patrol that they select their Patrol Leaders to represent them at the PLC to select and organize troop activities. It is with the patrol that they learn to do things on their own and with their patrol mates without adult interference. It is with the patrol that they will screw up, and sometimes screw up royally , that will provide the absolute best memories and learning experiences. 3) Do the scouts really know their skills or are they a "one and done" unit? Can I trust these scouts with my life if things hit the fan in the back country? Trust me it happened once to me, and my patrol mates on the trip, as well as a few scouts from my home troop, were the ones who took care of me and my canoe partner. 4) Are the meetings "organized chaos" with different groups working on different things? Or are the meeting nothing but MBs and lectures that bore the scouts? 5)Is the unit keeping the older scouts or is the unit losing them after getting Eagle? I know of units that not only have Eagles in their ranks still active, but also that number of ASMs in the 18-21 range. Heck one troop had more 18-20 yo ASMs than Scouts at one point. A unit that loses Eagles as soon as they get it worry me. 6) Is the unit sustaining members and/or growing? A unit that evens out the aged out members with new members, and especially one that is growing, is a good sign.

SP, Depends on how the campfire is done. Back in the day when I was a yute, one campfire at my camp was strictly the OA's. They led everyone from the assembly area to the campfire ring. They did an opening ceremony, had the dance team perform a dance or two, have one member tell a story focusing on scouting's Oath, law and motto, and then have the Indian Lore MB students come out and do two of the dances they learned with the dance team. Culmination was the OA Tap Out Ceremony (I told you I'm old announcing the new candidates who would go off and get info. After that the Story teller came back and did a closing.

There are a variety of factors that are in play in regards to ho long it takes to go from adult led to youth led. I'll pipe in a few I've seen. 1) Troop culture. If your older scouts and leaders use to doing things one way, it will take time to get them on the page. 2) Parents. Sometimes the biggest challenge is to get the parents to buy into the patrol method. I've already started talking about the differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts with my Bear parents, and some of them still are amazed at the independence the Scouts have. I even had a CM and pack CC freak out that you want the patrol 300' apart from each other and the leaders. 3) Having enough adult leaders on the same page. One troop after 5 years is finally at the stage. Their challenge had been adult leaders and keeping them. One who was committed kept acting the SPL role and eventually left when the other leaders approached him to back off a bit as he was doing the SPL's job. Other challenges included having ASMs stay. It seems as if once the got a decent set of ASMs, something happens and they lose them to moves and moving to venturing. 4) Having enough older scouts. They were a relatively young troop and most of their scouts were in the 10-13yo range. They did have a few transfer in form other troops, but as soon as they got Eagle, they left. The "old" scouts they now have have grown up with the troop and are taking over finally. 5) Support form the Charter Organization. Most COs are not that involved. Some COs are more involved and add rules and regs. That's OK since it is their unit. And some COs are pro Scouting.

HMM depends upon the role you are playing. I usually very nicely ask if they know that throwing knives are not allowed with Cubs, I think Boy Scouts are under proper supervision and on a range just like Tomahawks, and since this campsite has lots of folks running about, would they mind stopping since you would hate to have to send anyone to the hospital. Or you can contact someone in charge.

Not at a scouting event, but at a pow wow. They had one "Trader" set up his camp with trade goods, cooking utensils out and being used, musket ready, etc. People would come up and talk to him and ask him questions and he would answer them. Grant you I am a historian by training, and almost specialized in your period, so I absolutely enjoyed our conversations. One variation I see is having the campsite ready and have the Cubs help do the various things for ya, i.e. making the food, turning the spit, building the fire, etc.

Brew, Not to be a wet rag, but if you do use paintballs as "grenades" I mean lobbing devices, plan a good bit of time for clean up. They are a bear to clean up as I speak from expereince. Ditto waterballoons

Deaf, Hitchhiking in this sense means takings someone Else's idea and expanding upon it in a brainstorming session. Not actual hitchhiking to get 300+ feet away.

Yes the price of gas is getting out of hand, especially in NC where we have the highest gas prices in the region, supposedly to build and maintain roads but they are now trying to toll I-95 but not the other interstates in the state. I know some folks have said they are reconsidering CSDC since it is held at the local camp 22 minutes away one way and not in town. I knwo of units that are planning to limit their outings to 2 camps within a 30 minute one way drive except for summer camp and maybe a special event. It's getting rough. Me personally, with the upcoming renovation at work and increasing prices, I jokingly asked if it would be possible for me to telecommute during that time.

Lots of good advice here and links posted. here are my thoughts. 1) if you are rebuilding a troop, look at the 3rd. Edition Scoutmaster's Handbook, volumes 1 and 2. Yes some of the the info is outdated as it was written int he late 1920s, BUT it provided the FOUNDATION of the patrol method and getting your troop to do it. 2)grad school is a pain. Did it twice and sympathize. That is where you need to multiply yourself and go after committee members and parents to help with logistics. 2a) Make sure the folks comign to camp outs know the patrol method and won't interfere. 3) Use your PLs and older scouts. have them come up with what they want to do. 4) Use your resources. The Troop Program Features, Vols 1-3 is a resource for your Patrol Leaders' to use to help plan their year. You won't do everything in the 3 books, but they can pick what they want and it will help. 5) Talk to leaders with youth lead units. Use roundtables, and ask questions here and elsewhere,. Good Luck.

WOW that requirement has changed since back in the day. It use to be camp with a troop. I am assuming they want you to visit with a troop in the field to not only get a taste of the outdoor life, but also to see the various troops in your area in action. Me personally I'd try to get the troop to allow the Webelos to camp with them. It get the boys pumped for Boy Scouts, can solve the "camping fever" for a few months, and get the parents use to the patrol concept and comfortable with the troop leaders.