Eagle92

John, Using the Venturing pants as an example, yes the manufacturers could. Venturing split from Exploring in August 1998 and it was kinda rushed through. Some materials were not available yet, and that included both the uniform pants and shorts. That's one reason why ANY charcoal gray colored shorts or pants are accecptable: national didn't come out with shorts until Aug 1999, and pants until Aug 2000. And I may be off by a year, Shorts 2000 and pants 2001, as my memory is playing with me. Anyway Being the DE that I was and having to set the uniform example, I went looking for shorts, and a particular style that I saw at the "All Hands" Conference that unveiled Venturing. While looking for them, I saw a really nice pair from REI, but the shorts had elastic in it which I hate. So I moved on and got the pair I had until this year. Well when national finally came out with official shorts, they were the exact same ones I saw at REI with the addition of the Venturing Tag that was on them, and looked kinda silly IMHO.

Nut, http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34416.pdf Starts on pp 15-16. Moggie, Long story short, parent or guardian. Brief synopsis of Cubs camping since I've been in Socuting. In the 1980s, only times Cubs camped was on "lad and dad weekends" and at day camp. packs didn't camp. Sometime in the 1990s, councils started putting on weekend events for Cubs and their families this branched out to resident camp, i.e. 3-4 days and nites of camping, and eventually packs going camping ontheir own. There are requirements for Packs to camp as noted in the link above. Most significant is the Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation ( B.A.L.O.O.) Training that is required ( and beleive it advanced outdoor training for Boy Scout and Venturing leaders don't count). Also as I have recently discovered, some councils limit the number of pack camp outs per year. I know in my neckof the woods, we still have folks that beleive "Cubs don't need to camp." Yeah right, tell that to my 4 yo Cub Scout wannabe who has his pack ready to go and has been wearing it EVERYWHERE since big brother packed up this weekend.

OGE, I can relate. I'm a "very tender subject" when it comes to that movie. When you marry into a LotR and DW fanatic family, they wear on ya. Kinda interesting when your 11 month old son goes to his first Sci Fi convention in Gondorian armour. Hopefully the boys won't turn their bedroom into a T.A.R.D.I.S. as their mom and aunt did when they grew up.

Well there is a discussion on the topic of unit Leaders as Commissioners that got started on the New Member thread and I think it's more appropriate here. Now we have a new member who is both a SM and UC. Now one person is stating that unit leaders hould not be registered in any commissioner position at all and does give specific references to the prohibition: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34501.pdf http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33621.pdf http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/commissioners.aspx But in my experience trying to get commissioners is sometimes like pulling teeth, especially in someof the smaller districts and councils. I know that when I was in a metro council, we had a few, not many but a few, multiple registered commissioners. In my current district, we went over 3 years without a CS RT commissioner b/c we couldn't find anyone. And then it was only after I dropped being CSDC PD that I took it on and am rebuilding it. BS RT was the same, except shorter period. Also when I attended training, all of the RT commissioners were also serving as unit leaders. As for UCs, From what I've seen, it's about 50-50. So what are you all's expereinces?

If it's Ok with you all, I'm am spinning the Commissioner portion of this thread over to Council Relations.

I've seen and read all kinda of things. I have in my collection neckers that a local seamstress makes using standard poly-cotten cloth. I have neckers that parents make. I have neckers that use 2 different colored sections, i.e. 1/2 red 1/2 white; 1/2 blue and 1/2 green, etc. And I have 1 that is 3 colored sections,i.e. red, green and yellow. I've read about units using military triangle bandages, checkered table clothes, etc as neckers Here is what I would look for. Bright color that can easily ID members from a distance, and useful in the outdoors for signaling. Large enough, the two short sides need to be at least 36" and preferably 40" long, to be useful for First Aid and other stuff. Absorbant for sweat, water, etc. Easily cleanable. Most of my scout neckers are poly-cotten or cotten. But I also do dancing with the OA, and those are silk a or imitation silk. Wouldn't use those materials though for a scout necker. Some links on neckers. http://www.3gp.org.uk/101neck/101neck.htm http://pinetreeweb.com/neckerchief.htm http://www.kentscoutsupportteam.org.uk/sgallery-county_patrol-our_67_uses_of_a_neckerchief.html

Welcome to the forum! As to the knots issue, that is your call. Wear them, or don't wear them. Me personally I do wear them, but one of my uniforms is starting to look like a "Central American generalissimo," and I am thinking about applying the Sea Scout rule of no more than 6 knots to all of my uniforms. I can tell you the three knots earned as a youth: Eagle, AOL, and Youth Religious (minus the devices)knots will be on every uniform. JP, Actually there is no prohibition on a unit leader being a commissioner, except possibly being a commisioner for there own unit (and I gotta check on it). BUT as Quaz has stated, being an SM and a US takes up a LOT of time. heck I'm barely treading water with being a CS RT commish and a CSDL. And in my expereince a CSDL is a heckof a lot harder than being a ASM or SM. Only thing harder than being a DL is being a DE (shudders at the thought of doign that again).

I admit I got in late on Ender's Game as I first heard it in audo book about 5 years ago. IT WAS AWESOME! I admit I haven't read any of the other books in the series, but I am looking forward to the movie. And if Card get's his way with the movie, which he said he has rejected previous screen rights offers b/c of clauses to modify to too much, then i'll probably be first in line withthe kids to see it. Just won't be wearing a costume to see like I will for THE HOBBIT.

Gareth, Thanks for the update on UK scout groups! It's been almost 15+ years since I was there and my memory is hazy. One thing I really liked abotu the group model, esp. since becoming a Cub leader, is that units in the group work together andtake care of each other. I've seen Explorers and Scouts working with Cubs when I was over there.

One of the things that supports staying in your group that I saw in the UK back in the 90s was the fact that in addition to the the unit leaders, you also had a set of group leaders who worked with all three units, Pack, Troop, and I cannot recall what they called the Ventures (now Explorers in the UK) The group leaders worked and guided the individual units and coordinated amongst the three. Also meetings occurred periodically with all the leaders being present, giving not only a familiarity, but also a sense of "group culture." So as one moves up from Cubs to Scouts, or Scouts to Ventures (now Explorers), there was less shock for the newbies as they knew the leaders and the group had the same culture. Over here each unit is independent, despite being at the same CO. I remember never seeing Boy Scouts from my CO's troop when I was a Cub. When I was a DE, one pack was sending all their boys to another CO's troop b/c of disagreements with the CO's SM, to the point that the troop folded. And at least in my neck of the woods, we have the attiutude from a lot of Boy Scout leaders that they do not want to have ANYTHING to do with Cubs until they are Weeblos IIs getting ready to cross. Example is I have a bunch of Bears chomping at the bit and cannot wait to go camping more. I asked an SM talk to his SPL about remembering the Webelos in some of their activities next year. While the response was not negative, the look I got was "I didn't think Webelos one did stuff with Boy Scouts until after the Web II's cross over," and a teh actuall comment was a non-committal " We'll see."

HMM I got some mixed emotions on this one. Troop 1 One one hand I do like the Socratic Method as it makes the learner think for themselves and come up with solutions on their own with some guidance form the questioner. This is something scouting is suppose to do: allow Scouts to come up with their own solutions and learn from them. BUT I do not like the fct that the leaders are talking to each individual Scout. I am one of those who beleives in the chain of command: SM guides and mentors the SPL, who then gives guidance and directions to the PLs who then have their patrols do their jobs. Troop 2 While the Scouts are doign things on their own, making mistakes and learnig from them, Leaders do need to give some guidance to the SPL so that he can do his job. When I have worked with SPLs, OA CCs, and OA committee chairs, I've used this approach alot when I saw some issues.

I hate to say it, but it depends. Have you been convicted of it or are you waiting for court? I don't know the full story, and to be honest I don't want to know. But I am relating is second hand, so take it with a grain of salt. What I do know; one very active dad filled out an application with a pack to be CM. There was some delay in it being process by the CO, between when he submitted the application, and when it had the criminal background check, he got a DWI and it was not listed on the application. He did not become CM. Now he told me that the application was kicked back to the CO to see if they still wanted him and they said no. Some folks said the DWI stopped him at the council level approval. But I do not know. Someone else on this site quoted some BSA documents stating that there are classifications of acceptance for those who have bent the law. Depending upon a variety of factors,you can be OK, you can need the approval of the CO, and then their is denied.

In addition to pins, try staples. My HS had a uniform. My patch fell off and I stapled it as a "temporary" measure. I say "temporary" b/c the intentions was just that, but I wore the patched stapled about 2/3's of the Sr. Year, and never did sew it on.

"Fish, I'm not going to quote chapter and verse on election procedures. To quote Inigo Montoya, "Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up." An OA unit election team consisting of youth members outside of the troop or team to conduct the election. Most times an adult adviser is there as well, but I remember no adviser on a few when I was a " GASer" i.e. 18-20YO range. While one member is talking about the OA, or possibly showing a video on the OA, another member gets all the info needed, i,e, name, rank, contact info, # of days and nites camping etc, from the SM AND his signature approving all eligible scouts for election ( bold and caps for major emphasis more on that later). So that is where the SM's involvement come in, HE APPROVES THE SCOUTS TO GO ON THE BALLOT. (emphasis not shouting). If there are any problems with a scout, the SM can remove him from the eligible list. This is where it need to be resolved! Ballots are made and passed out and the scouts write the names of who they think should be in the OA. Nowadays, everyone eligible can get their name written on the ballot. FYI Prior to the mid 1990s (I think '93 or 94 thereabouts)only HALF of those eligible could be on the ballot. While theoretically possible for everyone to get elected ( And I had 1 SM brag to me how he did it too.) It usually didn't happen. Back to today's process. Once the ballots are collected and tallied, an eligible Scouts needs 50% of the total votes turned in to become a candidate. If not one is elected, a second round of voting is done which is final. In the 20+ years of being in the OA, I have seen the need for a second round only 1 time. Adults in the 18-2o age frame can vote with the youth and can be on the ballot if they meet the requirements, i.e. Had been FC or higher, 14 days and nites of campign including LT camp, etc, Adults 21+ have to be nominated by the unit committee, and then approved by the lodge. Lodge approval varies from lodge top lodge. Also there is a ratio of how many adults can get nominated. I believe if a troop elects 1 scout, and they have up to 50 scouts, they can send in 1 leader. 51-100 scouts registered in the troop - 2 leaders, and multiple of 50 thereof. BUT a scout has to be elected. No Scout, no adult nominee. Now here is where it gets interesting announcing who was elected. Most lodges do public call out ceremonies, but some do not. Most units wait for the announcement to be made at that time. Some units want it announced ASAP. Also the SM has the right to know who was elected no matter when the announcement is made. BUT once they are elected, or not elected, THE RESULTS ARE FINAL! If an SM has issues with an eligible scout IT NEEDED TO BE DEALT WITH BEFORE HE SIGNED OFF ON THE FORM APPROVING THE CANDIDATES! (caps for emphasis and you'll see why in a moment). I remember one time when an SM, in fact it was the same one who bragged about rigging an election so everyone got in under the old rules, approved a bunch of eligible scouts, but when told who was elected was furious and wanted me to remove one elected Scout, and replace him with another. He was getting belligerent with the election team and I intervened saying they were going to follow the rules. I also stated that if he had a problem with the scout, he should have taken care of it prior to signing the form approving the Scout. He said he didn't think the scout would get elected, but he now that he was, he wants him removed. After I said "No, they are going to follow the rules" a second time, he started cursing me out and saying I didn't know anything about the OA. He was still yelling and cursing as we left.

Forgot to add, Wish the CU shirt had buttons on the pockets. Seen more folks loose temp insignia that have loops on them, and Arrowmen wearing the dangels. Also seen Webelos wearing the plastic rank diamonds that national sells on the right pocket b/c there is no button on the left. i admit I hate the the plastic diamonds, but if national is going to sell them, you can't complain too much about scouts not sewing the patches on the uniforms. BUT I can complain about national not having buttons on both pockets that actually "lock" the things in place having the button go through the pocket flap. One of the modifcations I made on my CU shirt was removing the button, placing it on the pocket, and making a buttonhole on the flap. OA flap covers up the modifciation.

DL, Still think it's overkill as the denner is not a POR in the sense that the Den chief and Patrol leader are in a den and patrol respectively. The Denner is the scout who helps you out and leads the den in doing things, i.e ceremonies and what not. relax and go with the flow.

Actually I like the gen 1 Swithcbacks with the zippers at the hemmed ankles. Don't have to take off boots to convert them to shorts. Problem withthem is that they are sized horribly. I'm normally an XL and needed the L, and even then it's a wee bit loose. I've used for the outdoors both withing and outside of Scouting. Wish the cargo pockets were bigger, but that is a minor complaint. The CU nylon shirt isn't too bad, except for the smokes pocket and how the shoulder are as the CSP looks kinda weird on them. Still think BSA should have went with the activity shirt they had a few years as the uniform shirt. Haven't tried the microfiber yet. Overall I think the BSA is moving in the right direction. Now I've heard a lot of complaints about the current Venturing shirts. Some ladies do not liek the vents b/c they show undergarments. Pockets are funcky for Oa and older Corp of Discovery Patches. KUDU, You mean 36" neckers?

Personally I am in the pro-traditional camp. #1 it's Identity in the community. I've been commented on that and compared to the GSUSA who do not have an identifiable uniform from the community's perspective. I've been told the only time you can tell a girl is a GS is when they are sellign cookies.. #2 It's cheaper than the experimental uniform going on in the Baltimore Area Council I believe. Underarmour shirts, pants, and socks are not cheap compared to the current BSA. PLUS you have to get a new shirt for each rank as the shirt you wear is rank based. here are some links but the link wiht the prices, as well as the proposed shorts, pants, and socks I cannot find. http://www.bsacarroll.org/node/1960 http://www.scoutingnews.org/2009/07/31/baltimore-area-council-to-pilot-alternative-bsa-under-armour-field-uniform/

SP, The new scouts had just joined and only knew one person in the troop really well: the brother. That's b/c brother was their DC, forced to by the way. Otherwise he was really inactive. The problem got solved, when the PLC decided to push OA elections prior to the Crossovers joining the troop. The PLs and other Scouts were not happy with the elections, and brought it up at the PLC. Thing is OA policy requires ALL members to vote, whether they joined that nite or have been in for years. And at the time abstentions counted against the folks, unlike today. I know I've seen one troop tell their new members to abstain.

Deaf, William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt was "DA MAN" Click on his picture for more info,or look him up in Wikipedia. He did a brief autobiography if memory serves in BOYS LIFE magazine in the late 1980s, early 1990s. I wish I still had the article. Essentialy from about 1926 until his first retirement in 1965, every single Boy Scout related handbook was written by him. Scoutmaster handbooks, Boy Scout HBs, Patrol Leader HBs He was part of the first WB course in the USA, and was the SM for the second. He wrote extensively on scouting topics and the outdoors, both for the BSA and the general public. And he was involved in international scouting as well. After his retirement, folks tried to modernize the BSA, and screwed up royally, when they introduced the Improved Scouting Programin 1972. They took the outing out of Scouting, evidenced by Camping MB NOT being an Eagle required MB from 1972-1979, and scouting numbers dropped drastically. Only units that tended to survive were established units by "old Fogeys" who knew what Scouting should be, and didn't change their programs. In order to save the BSA, national had to get Green Bar Bill out of retirement. He started with BROWNSEA 22, a back to Scouting's basics for a troop junior leaders, which has developed and morphed into NYLT today, and wrote the 1979 ed. of the Boy Scout HB. If it wasn't for GBB, BSA would not be in the shape it is today. Problem is a lot of the pros and current leaders were Scouts or Pros at that time. Pros are changing the program slowly and repeating mistakes form the 1970s IMHO. As for leaders, some do not have the outdoor skills that previous Scouts, and succedding scouts who had GBB's last BSHB have, and the also are less oriented on the outdoors. And combine that with FCFY, BSA has issues. OK off the soapbox.

I got an International for Christmas a few years back. I had one problem with it that was easily fixed with the repair kit that you bought separately. One interesting thing, and please someone tell me if I am wrong, but it appears the only difference between the regular Whisperlite and the International version is the international version has two jets that come wit it: one installed that handles one set of fuels, and a second that handles a different batch of fuels. In the more expensive repair kit, I believe the Expedition Repair kit., it has the second jet. Actually the six digit codes have been around since '96 at the earliest. I remember everything had a 6 digit code when I worked with supply. BUT only 5 of the digits were used in the catalogs.

glanced at link. WAY too much overkill.

Den level camping, save Webelos, is prohibited by teh G2SS.

Actually sewing is a Tiger Elective. 18 Sew a button onto fabric.

SP, Perhaps you're right. But I honestly don't think politics should play a part in OA election. As DG says, when deciding on who should be in the OA, a friend to every Scout involved with the Troop gives back to 1st year Scouts 9 and I would add ALL scouts inthe patrol and troop) Serving the Troop (Troop Guides, SPL,PL, etc...) Participates in Troop Activities