Eagle92

My comments. 1) It needs to be his decision. Yes it can be tough on us parents. But ultimately it is his life. 2) What are they doing if they are not a "hiking and camping" troop? As Green Bar Bill said, " Outing is three-fourths of ScOuting." 3) MB Councilors are NOT unit level positions but District level ones. Although a MBC can request to only work with one particular troop. Have your sonask around who the MBC is.. 4) While the Guide to Advancement states that the blue cards are the ony acceptable thing to use, I know for a fact that some units do not use them, using MACSCOUTER.ORG worksheets, or photocopies from the MM pamphlets, or even the requirement books.

OK here are some links that may help. http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/overview.html http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/seascout12.html http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/seascout24.html http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/seaexplorer50.html http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/seaexplorer66.html http://www.seniorscoutinghistory.org/seniorscoutsite/seascout98.html and a big THANK YOU EMB for your hard work on those sites!

Sailing, If memory serves While Sea Scouts became Sea Explorers in the 1950s I beleive it was the late 1960s/early 1970s when Exploring became more career oriented. that was when Ships were palced into trad/non-trad. fleets. EMB's website may have the info. EDITED: Looking at the website below, it appears that the 1969-1971 time frame was when the changes occured. And of course membership dropped.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

SP, YOu may want to reread my post. I said the BOR MAY have a case in regards to the cleanign and organizing gear. BUT as the Scout does need guidance on the issue BEFORE the time is completed or removed. If that was the basis alone for the denial, Yes I would want details on how it was presented to the scout prior to him completing the time in the POR. If he was advised, then yes rejection is appropriate WITH a written plan to fix the problem, i.e. get the gear clean and organized ASAP in order to compelte the task and get the BOR. BUT saying he needs to organize events and activities, that is the purveiw of the SPL and PLs, not the QM or Librarian. IMHO that's adding to requirements #1. Also if memory serves, G2A states a written procees needs to be done so that the Scout can fix things ASAP. making him wait 5 months for a continuation of the BOR is also Adding to requirements IMHO. I think the last two items are what most folks are heated about. And while the SM is happy, if the committee did advise him and told him, then some work may, stress MAY, need to be done. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ( emphasis folks) is that the SM, CC, and the committee need to talk about the matter and get on the same page.

From what I was told from way back in the day, specifically July 1990 about a year after they removed the T-2-1 time requirements, ONLY ONE BOR IS NEEDED TO COVER BOTH RANKS! (caps for emphasis) So NO, two BORS do not need to be held the same nite, one covering both will surfice. Long story short, we had a scout going for 3 in one nite, Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class. While this wasn't our first BOR since the time requirements were removed, it was the first time we had a Scout going for multiple. To make sure we did everything by the book, we had 3 separate BORs for him. Had him come in for Tenderfoot, and then had him wait until after the next BOR for 2nd. Then we had him wait after 2nd for the 1st. Next RT the SM asked about what to do and was told that yes, only 1 BOR was needed. Bad news was that Scouts could no longer sit on BORs. That was my last nite sitting on BORs until I became an adult.

My thoughts. 1) SM signed off and felt the scout was ready. While cleaning gear may fall under the QM's job, it should be delegated to the patrols, and I can see a POSSIBLE reason for him to come back, the other 2 requiremes: Didn't plan enough activities and needs to wait 5 months is HORSEHOCKEY as Col. Potter would say. 2) The Guide to Advancement, google "Guide to Advancement" and "Scouting.org" will get you the document, has the entire process laid out, and the BOR needs to review it. 3) Did they give the scout a WRITTEN reason for denial, and a plan to correct it? That's one of the requirements.

1) Welcome to the Forums! 2) Need some more info to make an adequate argument (clasical definition of the word). 3) Hazing has no place in Scouting.

I beleive SCOUTING.ORG under Training Times has the info. Essentially CM Award will be the green and white Key Knot with device, Trainer and Cub Scouter will be the Training Award Knot with device (don't know if there will be 2 different devices or not). The three Den Leader Knots are being consolidated into the CSDL Knot, with devices designating TCDL, CSDL, or WDL. Problem is, there is no TC device at this time. Me personally devices are a P.I.T.B. USe to wear them when i worked for national and they were constantly coming off, sticking me, etc. Now I don't wear them.

Base, We had the tornado situation last year. Here is what was decided. Those who wanted to could camp out Friday nite when it was safe. Alot of folks did. Saturday morning we had a hike planned and take down. DEPENDING upon the situation, we may have lunch and fishing, or we would leave. And we had a family come in just for the hike. The group left around 11:30, with me being caboose at 12PM. Camp ranger stopped by to advise us to leave while we were packing as we had the weather radio with us. Luckily camp is 30 minutes away. Tornados hit the area around 3:30-4PM time frame. Talking tot he families that had soccer or baseball games that day, some of the games ended at 2:30.

All good advice. My $.02 worth. If you see a really good deal, investigate thoroughly as they may be a reason why they are so cheap. Troop was growing and our QM wanted to purchase Eurekas like the ones we already had. When the committee treasurer went to buy the Eurekas we wanted, they saw a "deal" on some all in one popup tents, i.e. poles automatically attached to the tent and you "shake it out" to set up. Long story short, all of the tents were damages and unable to be repaired by the end of the second camp out.

Base, THANK YOU for this comment as you don't know how much it means. Far as camping in foul weather, it is a local decision and the person with the feet on the ground needs to make the call, but how many troops and pack cancel simply because there is rain forecast, rare is the Tornado or severe forecast more than about 6-12 hours out. I guess I am still second guessing myself a bit. I know with a Boy Scout troop, and possibly with Webelos who have expereince camping, I would have stayed, taking precautions like moving to the shelters that are aroudn the camp. As for the forecast not being known 6-12 hours, you got that right. We had folks with their smart phones and me with my radio monitoring the weather all day. And the forecast changed almost hourly. No thunderstorms, thunderstorms, heavy rain, moderate rain, heavy winds, moderate winds, etc. Only thing that wasn't mentioned was hail, which we did have.

Here are my opinions and observations as to why Sea Scouts is the best kept secret. 1) Sea Scouts have kept alot of the traditions and customs dating back to the 1920's. Yes I know Sea Scouts is 100 years old this year, but CDR. Keane really created the traditions and customs that are evident today in traditional ships. 2)The old Sea Exploring program that divided ships into catagories, traditional and non-traditional, kinda screwed it up IMHO. I know that when I was looking for a ship to join, I had the expectations of one of the ASMs in my troop, as well as the Sea Explorer manual I was reading. But my ship was a non-traditional one, and I left after about 18 months. 3)Running ships is expensive, more so than scout troops. Constant maintence, insurance, finding qualified leaders with the KSAs or willing to go through outside training via USCGA and Power Squadron, etc. 4) Does not get the support from the pros as it should. Grant you, some can say that about Venturing as a whole, but you do see pros actively creating crews and wearing the Venturing uniform. I can count on one hand how many pros I've seen in a Sea Scout uniform, not including when I was a DE and assigend to a ship.

Joebob, Whether you wear the knots or not is your call. Whether you wear the current ones or wear the new knots when they come out is also your call. But my thoughts are that the knots do show your committement and follow through to the youth. I've found knots to also help ease some nervousness among new parents. And I've seen knots being used as icebreakers. As to the CM's control over the knots, yes there are a council recognition. But I do know of some units that track the awards for their leaders and submit the info on their behalf. The apply BP's adage to the training awards that he mentioned about advancement, it should come as naturally as a suntan....

As I learned this weekend, we have to set the example and do, not what we want to do, but what is needed to be done that benefits those we are responsible for. In regards to knots, yes I think the requirements needs to be followed. Can it suck sometimes, most definitely. I know very good leaders who are missing out b/c they don't do roundtables. And I see some "interesting" leaders get stuff who are probably relying on the good ones to provide a program. And I've seen leaders who get stuff and I scratch my head 'cause I've never seen them at RTs, grant you our CS RTs have been relatively non-existant but info has been given out, and I never see them at trainings, district activities, etc. In regards to trailer registration, I got a big "HUH?" I don't understand how you can register a trailer in one state, and live in another. Let me add the caveat, under normal circumstances. I have military friends who have their cars and what not registered in their home states while they are moving all over the country with their duty assignments. As for my expereince in the woods this weekend, I realized that folks with little to no experience WILL follow you off a cliff, or in my case camp in a severe thunderstorm with hail and hours of rain, because they are trusting you and following your example. Grant you most of the folks left after dinner, but there were a few that were going to tough it out because I was. I was going to let one person's comment a year or so ago cloud my judgement. Ok I was constantly tuned into weather radio and the 'net getting updates. And tried to push the decision to almost the last minute. But when the time came to make the decision, I let the the stupid comment "you're leaving because you're afraid of the rain" to affect me. Luckily a nice little walk to the ranger's house listening to the weather radio and seeing one of the pack's new family's have their tent blow about looking like Gumby got me to my senses.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

'Fish, I think you did A OK. And you remind me of a story. In order to receive Vigil in the OA, the lodge adviser (LA) has to sign off on it. I know of a LA who was only Brotherhood, and as such he wasn't entitled to know who was selected for Vigil. Vigil Committee Chair and his adviser had the LA sign a blank form the two years he was LA, and he found out the Vigil candidates at the Call Out ceremony. I bet national had an interesting look the second time as the LA was selected for Vigil that year, and his name was listed a Vigil candidate.

I cannot believe I missed this quote from Calico "The Order is about service. Here is the way I see it. An Ordeal member helps when asked, a Brotherhood member asks if they can help, a Vigil Honor member just picks up the broom and starts helping." THAT IS 110% ON THE MONEY! ( caps for both screaming and emphsis )

I's also like to add that some folks think 'commissioner" is a twilight position for those who can no longer be active. That was mentioned at one commish meeting I attended. Individual was an active commish up until a year ago, and is in really bad shape. Folks wanted to keep him registered. I mentioned the "Retired" strip, and think it would be more appropriate.

Hawk, Did you go this weekend? I wanted to, but the pack was camping.

Not only can an Ordeal member be Chapter Chief, He can serve in ANY chief role he is elected to: Lodge, Section, Regional, National. Unless some lodge has restrictions in their by-laws, which I doubt. As mentioned, Ordeal Members ARE full members of the OA. They can vote and hold office. The only "restrictions" I know of is that they cannot go to Brotherhood and Vigil ceremonies. I've known of Ordeal lodge officers.

Dan, I think the idea of West knot and "buying it" may have come about from what one of my old employers called the "2-20 Rule." If you do something right for a customer, they will probably tell two of their friends. You do something wrong, and the customer will tell 20 of their friends. While most scouters are humble folks who are concerned about the youth in the program, there are some who are in it for themselves. I have personally met one of the later, one who bragged about not only getting the West Fellowship for himself, but also for each member of his immediate family, and being the fist family in the council to be West Fellows. I also know of one council which divided up a bequest so that every Eagle Scout that year, and most of the office staff, became West Fellows. Reason for it: they wanted to become #1 in West Fellowships that year. It does leave a bitter taste in the mouth, even when one knows that not everyone is like that. Even when one knows the importance of those endowments and how it has been used to recognize folks who have given years, and sometimes lifetimes, to Scouting. And even when you know that the individuals are giving at that level, not for the recognition or a knot, but because they are a product of Scouting and want to give back so that others will have the same opportunities that they have had and could care less about recognition, or even get upset if their is an attempt to be recognized.

Boomer, FYI Webelos are still Cubs. Now grant you I was only there briefly, and what I write is limited by what I saw and talked about, but the group concept doesn't limit diversity. Rather it helps to make transitions easier. The sea scout troop I kayaked with was very welcoming and we had a grand time.

I don't think they are now using the same manufacturer for all clothing products. Otherwise the Cub Scout switchbacks would be identical to the Boy Scout canvass ones, and they are definately NOT! Oldest is in a size 10 CS pant, but is in a size 8 BS pant because they are made differently. I remember working in supply and being able to easily help Cubs who were getting the BS pants or shorts by asking them A) what size they were currently wearing, B) is the elastic fully stretched or is their room still, and C) getting the correct size with room to grow. It was easy because both the CS and BS uniforms were designed the same way, except colors and epalettes. But I spent about 30-45 minutes having oldest try on BS pants to get the right size b/c not only are they made differently from the ODL pants, but also from his CS ones too. Also the Venturing pants and shorts were a different design from the Cub Scout and Boy Scout ones then they first came out, and still are today. And there is an issue of quality with the CUs. Grant you Supply has a lifetime warrenty, so you can exchange it, but it should not have to happen. PLUS as I tried to exchange some stuff, the clerk tried to tell me that they could't accept the exchange b/c it was used. Had to remind him of national's lifetime warrenty on all merchandise, and suggested he call Charlotte if need be to confirm.

John, Gotcha. I agree a commissioner should not fill out another's UVTS except in a few rare circumstances, i.e. the commish doesn't have the IT capabilities, paperwork not processed yet by council and he's already started the job (that was my case) etc. AND THEN it needs to be noted that the visit was done by XYZ commissioner. As for national being realists, I can tell you first hand that the folks in Irving are realists. I know at PDL-1 we had discussions on what SHOULD be happening, and how things ARE SOMETIMES DONE. One constant theme was that DEs need to multiply themselves as much as possible, using all, stressing ALL, resources possible to provide a quality program. And volunteers are considered resources to help provide the program.

John, If they are using UVTS, then they are listed in SCOUTNET as commissioners as that is the only way to access the program. Again I personally like the "1 person, 1 job" concept because I know how difficult doing some of these jobs are, let alone multiple ones. I've seen burn out, I've seen people spread so thin that none of the jobs gets the right amount of attention, etc. But unfortunately the world is not black and white. There is a critical shortage of not only commissioners, but good ones. Heck in some areas there is a critical shortage of volunteers for all levels. I remember when I was a brand new DE that every single commissioner and district committee member was wearing both unit leader and district hats, and some were doing multiple unit, multiple district, and multiples of both! So I think national realizes that it is necessary to have people multiple register as commissioners and unit leaders. Otherwise the situation would be worse than it is.

John et al, FYI in regards to unit mentors. At one time the OA had a unit mentoring program that asked for Arrowmen to work with and mentor struggling units.