Eagle92

Richard, Thanks for the reply on MBs, but you still have not answered the rest of my questions. As for the link to the article. Read it and it doesn't answer my questions, unless you consider the BSA's members and volunteers employees. Then I understand DOL and OSHA rules. And if we are to be considered employees, where's my paycheck ? Otherwise I would not use them, nor do I really consider them "experts" but rather bureaucrats. After all they are the ones who recently tried to place restrictions that would not allow farm families to have their children do chores. It would also put restrictions of schools for that matter, i.e. 4-H and FFA livestock events. Fortunately enough people protested the idiocy and it was decided not to follow through. Now the MB response adds another question I now have. Say a Scout has received the proper training, not only through his school but through his MBC earning the MB. Wouldn't that make him qualified to use the equipment in question? IMHO it would be a waste of the Scouts KSAs, and a pity too, that the stuff he learned in Scouting as evidenced by his MB for whatever topic, could not be used for his Project,

Forgot to add last nite, and in every single hypothetical case you gave, the same thing could happen to an adult using the same equipment, i.e. fallig off a semi with a cart, falling from a ladder while cleaning the gutters,etc. Also I am willing to bet some of your hypotheticals are you going to the extreme, i.e. the scout doing steeple work.

A few comments. 1)"By the way, the yellow stress card is an urban legend." I have a retired USAF MSGT who told me otherwise. He was an instructor at a school dealing with folks outta basic and they had those cards during basic as they wanted to use them at the school. 2) As I stated I have ADD and I have mixed emotions. While 40 years ago it may not have been common, some research has shown that today's media intensive environment, i.e. cell phones, internet, texting, etc, has caused a jump in cases, as well as severity. Talking to my doc I think one of the reasons why my ADD really took off in the past few years is that my job is computer based. Also there are ways to "self medicate" in the form of stimulants like caffeinated beverages. I think the 4-6 cups of coffee and 2 Mt Dews helped. But here's the deal. IF I knew that A) there was a deadline for the exam, specifically Sunday, B) taking the exam on Monday would not only be going pass the deadline, but also force me tot take a day off from work, I would have pushed my self to do it.

Richard, Could we be a little reasonable here as your replys seem to be that you are taking it a little to personal? I gave you specific, stressing SPECIFIC, examples of Scouts using the equipment that is not longer allowed. Can you give us specific instances that the BSA has encountered? Not asking for stats because I can tell you that whatever number of accidents you have, I am willing to bet the number of non-accidents will be 20+ times that number. Also you never answered my questions about how is using a cart dangerous, how can the BSA allow a 10yo with Totin Chip use axes, but not a specific subtype, how common lawn maintenance tools used by 10yos are considered dangerous, does your son cut the grass and at what age did he start, are we going to reword requirements for merit badges to forbid these tools, and why is it better for an adult who can swim better to take a non swimmer out in a boat than a 16yo certified lifeguard, or in the case of Venturing an 18yo Lifeguard instructor ( remember 18 is a youth for both OA and Venturing purposes). I hate to say it, but you have not given any arguments except hypotheticals. Further as Moose has shown, anything can be used to do stupid things.

Richard, 1) Thank you for posting and clarifying. I know a lot of folks, including myself, do not like these rules and want to know why they are being implemented. If this posts sounds angry, harsh, etc. That is not how it is intended. This post is meant to be a discussion. 2) here are a few questions A) how is a "Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)" dangerous for someone under the age of 14? I have not only seen, but encouraged Cubs and their families to use carts for camping and other activities. My own son had used a collapsible 4 wheeled cart for carrying US flags to be used on graves. He's used it to transport fishing gear from the campsite to the lake. And he has been doing this since age 7. I do not see how that's dangerous. On a lighter note, I now have a reason to not get the broken wheel fixed since the cart is now technically 3 wheeled and not 4 wheeled, and hence OK by these guidelines. B) Ok I'm going to simplify this a bit as I don't have the time to go point by point at this time. A 10 year old Boy Scout who has just crossed over can use an axe as soon as he gets his totin chip, but a pick axe, which as the name implies is a type of axe, he can't use until 14? That doesn't make sense. Neither does the ban on posthole diggers, mattock, etc. As for the lawn mowers, blowers, trimmers, edgers, etc., How are they dangerous? I started cutting grass and using those tools when I was nine. Heck as a fundraiser to raise money for Jambo and Canada trip, I had a bunch of lawns to cut over a 18 month period. And I was 14 - 15 years old at the time. Curious, does your son cut the grass at home and at what age did he start? I ask because if he started before 16, then you have to see the idiocy of these rules. As for the circular band saws, etc. why have I seen them in schools for use. And I think this may caus eproblems for some MBs. Looking at some MBs I think Metal Work may have problems since Requirement 5A3 has scouts using mechanical saws to cut metal. Painting MB may want to remove walls form objects to be painted since some do need extenders. Wood Working may need requirement 3A revised since some schools do have power equipment for wood working projects. Heck I knew an Sm who not only had a fully supplied wood shop in the backyard, but his son had access to it whenever he wanted to do it. Don't know when he started, but he took me back there at age 13 or 14 (sorry my old age is getting to me) to show me some of the stuff he's been working on. Also requirement 4 may need to specify HAND saw. Ditto requirements 6B and C may need to add the phrase 'using hand tools" or "non-powered tools." And don't get me started on the pioneering projects over 5 feet. I was one ticked off Scout when that policy first came out in 1991 or there abouts as My troop had traditionally made a Bosun's Chair, i.e. a 15-20 foot pioneering tower on one end and a 25-30foot tower on the other end with wire rope connecting the two to create a ride. let's just say the only reason why my troop even attended the Scout Show that year was for one reason: to see William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt as he was at there that year. Otherwise we would not have showed up. In fact, we never went to another Scout Show again. The problem with these blanket rules is that they do not take into account an individual's knowledge, skills, abilities, and in some cases, certifications. best example is the current Safety Afloat rules which now state A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult who is trained as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. While that may seem perfectly reasonable, my problem is this: who would you rather have a non-swimmer ride with, an adult who barely passed the swim test, or a 15yo. certified Lifeguard? And Why can't ANY certified lifeguard take out a non swimmer? And for Venturing I can make it even more interesting and absurd argument (classical sense of the word0. Who would you rather have a non-swimmer be with an 21+ year old who has passed a swim test, or the 18 year old youth (again talking Venturing so he is a youth according to BSA policy) who is a certified instructor? An aside as this is a true story and emphasizes the ridiculousness of BSA policy at times. As everyone knows swim tests need to be done every year per SSD. One year I didn't go to camp, and therefor I had not taken the swim test. So I was a "non-Swimmer," despite being a lifeguard instructor. Now at the time SA allowed certified lifeguards to take non-swimmers out boating. So when my troop went canoeing, I had to ride with the 16 yo Lifeguard I had certified the year before to stay in compliance of SA since I was a "non swimmer" according to BSA policy. So can you explain how the restricted activities, and you can add Safety Afloat policy too if you do not mind, are considered dangerous by the BSA?(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

OK I need to rant. The original thread that this spun off of, as well as an incident today, have just ticked me off. I need to vent. Ok I think the new eagle rules are assinine. under the new BSA guidelines you must be 14+ to use a "Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)" So if you weant to get real anal retentive about it, Cub Scouts cannot use their red wagons on camp outs to move stuff around sicne it is a 4 wheeled cart. Ditto Pickaxes and mattocks, 14 plus. BUT a 10yo Boy Scout with his Totin Chip can use a 3/4 axe with no problem. I'm glad the 16+ rule wasn't around for lawnmowers, edgers, trimmers, blowers, and hedge trimmers wasn't around when I was working to raise money for my Jambo/Canada trip as I did cut lawns as a fundraiser. Started at 14. BUT I was cutting my huses yard since 9. As for the circular saws jig saws, power sanders, etc, I worked for one organization that taught 11-18YOs how to use them. Now I'm a Scouting addict, but the thing that drove me over was today. I proctor exams as a service to the community. It's part of my job. I had 1 student come in today and we had some problems. Now the initial problem was the prof's fault. Prof. didn't send the information needed to conduct the exam, and after 1.5 hours trying to get the info, I got it form another prof. Forgot to add that apparently this prof doesn't use the 16 university wide proctoring service that all theothers I've dealt with use. But here's the aggrevating part. This student stated that under the Americans With Disablilities Act (ADA), she is entitle to extra time tot take the test, specifically she has doubel the time everyone else has. So the 3.5 hour exam the class takes, she can have 7 hours. What the heck! Now don't get me wrong, I know why the ADA was created. I've dated a girl with a disability, had to temporarily use it myself when I had my accident, my son is labeled "disabled" ( more on that one in a minute), and as I discovered today I am disabled under ADA because I have ADD, which is what the student is using for the ADA complaince. After waiting and trying to get the info needed for the exam for 1.5 hours, when the student learned that at the absolute most I could proctor her for 3.5 hours (and I am in some trouble for scheduling the test as it is, I'd get in more trouble if I went over in my hours, but it is a service to the community we provide), the student didn't feel "comfortable" taking the exam in the 3.5 hour time span, which everyone else in the class has, and she arranged to take it another day. I'm sorry, but if I waited 1.5 hours, I would have tried by best to finish it. Esp. since the student has to take a day off from work to take the exam. STUDENT...DIDN'T...EVEN...TRY...TO..TAKE..THE...EXAM!!!! I have ADD, so I know how challenging it can be. But I have not let it stop me. I "sucked it up" and pushed on. Like I said my son is technically disabled b/c he has speech problems. His speech problems comes and goes, and there is not anything the speech therapy folks can do b/c the problem is mental, not physical. I can't remember what it's called, but basically he has problems speaking when his brain is learning new words and concepts. He had to repeat what he is learning over time in order to not stutter. I do not pamper him, use ADA for him when he tests, or anything like that. I treat him like any 8yo, with the exception that I do work with him to get the words pronounced correctly and let him practice saying the words a few times. I know for a fact that the speech problems lowered his overall Language Skills scores on a standarized test he took that took into account speech. No problems with reading comprehension, but the speech score dropped his score to the point that the overall score is "normal" for his age and grade. So are we raising a generation of wimps? Are we raising a bunch of kids who are afraid to do things? Are we raising a bunch of kids who won't even try? I have a Bear who has a physical disabilty. And yes he was a little afraid to try and learn knots since he only has use of one hand. But guess what. When I showed him some tricks to tie knots one handed, you should of seen him when after many attempts he got the first one tied. And he kept on practicing. Why can't we have folks focus on overcoming their disabilities? Ok rant over, feeling better, off the soap box.

A few comments. 1) yep each CO can create their own requirements on ledership,i.e. no female leaders. 2) I'd talk to the SM about it and confirm if true or not. 3) If true, I'd still make the option open, but also go see other troops. 4) If not true, definately go, and still see other troops.

BD, Not trying to add requirements one bit, just going old school. Gotta remember back in the day when I became an Arrowman, First Aid MB was required for First Class rank. My troop had the concept that a FC or higher scout could not only take care of himself in the outdoors, but someone else as well if things happened. Kinda like Whitey in FOLLOW ME BOYS being able to rescue the scout on the cliff.

Ok, my Bears are moving to Webelos, so what advice would you give them and their parents? Going to create a hand out for them, and want folks input. Thanks, E92

Ok I'm shocked to hear about national scout shops not requireming advancement reports b/c when I did work for supply, they were required for ALL rank and other restricted items. Further when it came to getting replacement rank, the shop not only required an advancement report, but also some other type verification,i.e shirt with the patch on, eagle card, etc. While the knots didn't require a report to be filled out, we required some type of verification: certificate, card, photos from COH, etc. If we had to we would also call NESA, buit that took some time.

Pappa, I must respectfully disagree with ya on the need for "academies." As for the term "gifted" there are better terms I agree. I know I went to a private elementary school that divided the students into 3 groups based upon abilities and skills up to 6th. Reason being that the teachers would better use the class time working with students with similar abilities AND the student would learn better if continually challenged. When you got to 7th & 8th grades (FYI I went to a HS for 8th), they divided you into 6 groups based upon your skills: 3 groups based on the liberal arts subjects ( English, History, etc.) and 3 groups for the sciences ( math, science,etc) Again the concept was the student would learn better being challenged and teachers would work better working with students with similar skills. It worked pretty well if you asked me. My HS did the same thing: placed you into one of two programs (College Prep and Accelerated (eventually you would be able to take AP classes), and even within the program you would be divided up based upon skills. Again it worked. But somehow that changed in the public school sector. The theorists eventually pushed the concept of everyone being equal and put into the same class, despite their KSAs. Education has suffered as a result IMHO. I knew that some of my Ed. profs disagreed with those theories, even though they had to teach them, and when it came to the practicums, encouraged us to go "old school"

Mike, WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?! That is ridiculous and really goes against what Scouting has traditionally support as noted in previous editions of the BSHBs: the scout supports himself. From buying his own uniforms and paying for his own trips, to funding their projects. But I do have an idea. Have the troop write a check for dad and then have dad write a check for the exact amount.

I'll be honest that is a toughie. Growing up, the OA had a tougher unit election process and, with the exception of when new scouts joined the troop and when I heard how a SM rigged an election so everyone got in under the old rules, even is a lazy, good for nothing "scout" was eligible, the scouts in the troop would not elect that person. They wanted to make sure the OA took the best. In your shoes, I'd try to get the concept of the OA being the best in scouting and get the "culture" within the troop that the scouts will select the best and not have to worry about it. But here is my $.02 worth. 1) Carefully review and think about does the scout live up to the concept of service. Is he one who may be a PITB all the time, or most of the time BUT does work with the younger scouts, does his responsibilities with the patrol and troop, etc. 2) Think if the scout is really living up to the Oath and Law. 3) If you think a scout isn't worthy of being on the ballot then you need to do the following. A) I'd talk to him and counsel him before the unit election. I'd use the Socratic method to get him to realize that he isn't ready for the OA yet and that you will not approve him for the ballot. B) DO NOT SIGN OFF FOR HIM TO BE ON THE BALLOT!!!! (caps for emphasis. If you read some of my previous posts on the topic, you know why.) As stated above I'd try to develop a culture within the troop that OA is for the "best in Scouting." Reinforce the concepts of "who is the person most likely to help you out on a trip and in life overall?" "Who is really sets the example?" and "Who would you want with you in the backcountry when things go wrong and you need everyone working together?" Or to redo that last one, ' who would you trust with your life in the backcountry if things went wrong?" But if you do let the Scouts decide on their own and you approve everyone,then you must be prepared for Scouts to elect the one you you personally wouldn't approve. I had one SM approve everyone, and when the one he didn't think should be elected did, he wanted the Scout to be removed and the team would not do it, and I backed them up to the hilt. So if you trust your scouts, you gotta let them make the mistakes. Good luck

Pappa, I hate to say it, but depending upon where you live, the quality of the public school system IS sub par (emphasis, not shouting). My mom worked for the public school system, and sent my sister to a private HS, and I was in a private elementary and HA. My older brothers both went to public schools, but they were much older and the school system was better when they went. Two of my aunts, and one uncle, worked for the public school system, but sent my cousins to parochial schools. I had friends whose parents worked for the public school system, and yep sent their kids to private school. Most interesting case my a girl I dated. Both her mom and stepdad were principals in the school system, one elementary, the other HS, and sent both her and her sister to....parochial schools. Also when I was in undergrad and minoring in secondary ed., every single teacher I met in the public schools advised me to not go into the field as the only reason why they remained was b/c they were near retirement. I had major problems with students in the public schools, to the point I almost failed a course b/c the student I was tutoring just would not cooperate and show up to the sessions, or school for that matter. Only problems I had when I worked in the private school was A) the teacher I was working with had an accident and instead of observing him I ended up teaching the class for 2 weeks with a sub in the back, and B) Got kinda interesting one of the students found out she was a relative. School knew as I told them, but the student didn't know until I mentioned her grandfather, my great uncle, was in the hospital.

Paper books will be around for a while. Yes I know publishing is getting more digital, heck I'm about to transfer all my journals to e-formats in my library, but things happen with e-formats. reader issues, power outages, user difficulties accessing what they want, etc. As a trained archivist, I can tell you that it is easier to access WWII and Korean War paper records transferred to microfilm and fiche at NARA than it is Desert Storm's electronic records. That's because the programs to access DS's records are no longer in use. BUT the best example of "lost" electronic records is NASA. There is an entire warehouse full of reels with info from the various space probes from the 1960s and 1970s that are not accessible b/c A) the programs are no longer used and possibly might be "lost" and B) the data storage device, the tapes, are no longer used and the hardware to read them is next to impossible to find in working order. When I was in grad school the 2nd time around, NASA and DOD were working on a joint project to create a "supercomputer" that would not only be able to access the various "lost" e-media, but also capable of expanding as new tech develops. It was a several billion dollar project, and I haven't kept up.

My advice on getting new Boy Scout parents on board with youth led and the patrol method is to start getting them familiar while they are Cubs. Again I constantly talk about the differences between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. As I posted elsewhere, I get help fromt eh 2 dad who were scouts as a youth, and the dad who is a MC in the troop. My last Bear den meeting of the year is focused on the Webelos program, what to expect, and how it helps the transition. The next 18 months should be spent weaning the parents away from the scouts. One thing that helped was that I had a Den Chief when they were Wolves, and I used him well if I do say so myself. that showed the parent what the scouts are capable of. My only problem with him is I gave him up to the Webelos den. They lost their WDL, and needed someone with the outdoor KSAs, and with his permission, I offered my DC to them to help. That really helped them. Unfortunately they lost him at the end of the year when he became SPL, but the foundation was set and the leaders and parents actually learned a bit from him and the other scouts in the troop. If memory serves, not only did all crosss over, all are still in the troop. One thing I am begging the SPL and PLC to do is invite both the Webelos I and IIs (I know unoffical terms but commonly used) to more outings and events b/c A) I want the Webelos to see what fun lies ahead, B)I want the parents to see what Patrol Method and youth led looks like (organized chaos ) and C) my den is chomping at the bit to do more camping. They know that they can go camping as a den and are working on some plans on their. But I rather they work with the troop so that when they cross over, everyone, youth and adult alike, are comfortable.

I gotta agree to the rotating class schedule to lengthen classes. My HS did that after my 8th grade year. We had a 7 day rotating schedule in which 1 class was dropped each day. It worked out very well.

As a CSDL who camps in a condo now, I must remind ya that Cub Camping is Family Camping. With 5 of us camping, there is a reason why I have a mansion. Now next year on the Webelos den camp outs.... I'm either busting out the Eureka 2 man for oldest and I, or make him carry it and I go under the stars. HMMMM just realized that it seems my unit number is tied to foul weather: snow storms, tornadoes, severe thunderstorms, hail, etc. Guess I'll be under a tarp. As what to look for, enough space for the family, adequate rain fly coverage, and a bathtub bottom. I would also recommend setting it up prior to the camping,and putting another layer of waterproofing. EDITED: forgot to add that like OTN, I also take a lad from Green Bar Bill and tell them how to use stuff around their own house before buying.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Calico, I regards to the height thing, remember it affects pioneering projects. NOwadays pioneering projects are limited to 5 feet, according to the document. I guess they took out the "inspected by a NCS certified COPE director and each participant must wear a helmet, harness and be connected to a belay line" or whatever the exact language was since COPE taught you how to climb and play ont he high elements, NOT do lashings. I remember as a youth building 20-30 foot towers and creating a Bosun's Chair.

My thoughts. #1 This will put kids getting home much later. I'm already hearing about kids on buses 1-2 hours one way. get out at 6, two hours home, that's 8PM! #2 Who is goign to pay for it? Longer hours means more money for salaries, overtime, etc. PLUS add in food meal programs and other mandated programs that will need to be expanded. In addition to Breakfastes and lunches, we'd have to deal with dinners too. #3 What about extracurriculars? I admit I am pro education and think that classes come first, but there are benefits to extracurriculars. #4 I see other organizations: sports leagues, dance studioes, etc really coming down on this as it will affect their buiseness. #5 I am so glad I home school. My son does one formal class, Sunday School, and he is bored out of his mind. He says its basically stuff that he can do in 10-15 minutes on his own.

Peri, BUT these links are official BSA publications that are coming up with this nonsense. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-028.pdf for the tool non-usage chart, and http://www.scouting.org/filestore/healthsafety/pdf/680-027.pdf for the service project over-analyzer.

Deaf, I've found the transistion from Cub Scout to Boy Scout is harder on the parents than the Scouts themselves. And double the difficulty for CS leaders. Let's face it we spend 3-5 years being told to do it all for meetings and activities, then after Cross Over, BOOM! you let the boys do it themselves. Heck even some of us old fogeys who know better have relapses. See some of my other posts. Beleive it or not I've been impressing upon the difference between Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for a year now with my Bear parents. Luckily I have two with a Scouting background as youth, and another parent is leader with the troop. I hope in 20 months when oldest Crosses Over, I don't have relapses. Esp. since I'm going back to Tigers June 1 with middle son.

Sailing, I gotta agree with Moose on this one, sometimes folks are nervous on BORs. I know on the first BOR I sat on, I didn't say a word until I was prodded by the CC. Then the question I asked was, "How do you clean a Dutch oven?" It was the first thing that came to my mind, and my friends in the troop, including the Scout I sat on the BOR for, didn't let me live it down for a VERY long time. But hey it was a great learning expereince for a 12yo PL., and I wish National would allow Scouts to once again sit on BORs for T-2-1. But if you've never done something before, you want to make sure that things are done correctly so that it doesn't mess around with the Scout. It may have been silly, esp. since the three of us did all 3 BORs for the scout I mentioned, we wanted to make sure nothing affected him.

Yes this is ridiculous. Why are we following OSHA rules when we are a VOLUNTEER organization? So you need steel toe boots, helmet gloves, ad nauseum to use hand tools like rakes, shovels, hammers etc.? So those under 14 cannot use wheelbarrows, gardening carts, or Radio Flyer red wagons. So those under 16 cannot use leafblowers, lawnmowers, edgers and trimmers. No wonder teenagers are having problems finding jobs. Why would anyone hire them for traditional summer jobs, when they cannot do anything at all because of OSHA rules.

WHO THE HECK IS COMING UP WITH THIS CRAP!?!?!?!!?!?!!? Seriously, you need to be 14 to use "Wheel cart (1-, 2-, or 4-wheeled)" So I guess the little red rider wagons that my not yet Tiger has used the past two years to help with the pack's service project can no longer be used since he's not 14.