Eagle92

BP, Depends on the SE and/or DFS. My DFS tried to minimize the DEs from being "in the field," even if we were doing it voluntarily. I vividly recall my DFS telling me point blank that "you don't need to play Indian" in regards to me attending OA events. I had certs that BSA would accept to do some aquatic activities, and I was scheduled to work at the council's HA sea base, which was in the last SCOUTING MAGAZINE btw, only to have it canceled at the last minute. The CD was ticked off big time on that one.

Bubba, Actually I know of a lot of folks who push advancement tot he point that they want their sons eagle at 14 or 15. In fact one troop I know of is very proud of the fact that most of their Eagles get it in the 14-15 y.o. range. They do neglect to mention that most quit after getting Eagle.

3b) Explain why Duct taping the camp medic to his cot and transporting him to the roof of the health lodge is a bad idea. 4) Explain the motto, "Can't fix it, Duct it. Can't Duct it, chuck it." 5) Demonstrate repairing a woodpecker hole on a 40 foot high rappelling tower, wearing harness, brain bucket, and on a belay device (self or manned).

I'll spin it off if ya want? Just say "yes" and I'll start a thread on International Scouting. Between my Canadian adventures and the European Camp Staff Program, I got stories.

The key to having multiple people in a POR si that they work together. So if you have 3 QMs, they are working together to knwo exactly what the troop has. You got 3 SPLs, their specific duties are outlined and they work together. I was fortunate in that I grew up in the days of the Leadership Corps, which was it's own POR, and we could be assigned duties as needed, or given a specific job.

Gotta agree with the others, No need for an SPL and the entire patrol works together to plan things.

My troop's library growing up was first stored in a closest, then a shed. Librarian, ok technically it was an Leadership Corps member assigned those duties (we thought of librarians as "little old ladies," and no one really wanted the title. 10+years later look at me ) So the books were in crates on a shelf. One troop I know of has combo desk and book case set up that they use.

Actually it's not one unit, but one group. If memory serves, and it's been over 15 years since I was there and changes have occurred to, so please correct me if I am wrong. You would have 5th Deal Cub Scout Pack, 5th Deal (Sea Scout) troop, and 5th Deal Crew (?) each with their own CM, SM, and Advisor, and other leaders. BUT you would also have a GROUP Leader and support leaders who would work with all three units. And each unit does things with the others. In theory, the Charter Organization can run things that way. I knew of a unit where the committee for the Pack, Troop, and Crew were the same, and in addition to normal committee work, they also worked with the units. However the only joint activities were between the Troop and Crew, Crew membership had bylaws stating only Life, Eagles, and ASMs between 18 and 20 allowed AND they had to help support the troop, and Webelos invited to activities.

I have two Smokeys. One that has been "used and abused" in that when I received it for completing BA22 back in the day, I had less than 30 minutes before it got soaked. I love it as it has character, especially after being shot at by the Germans (don't ask, let's just say A) I know why BSA wants 2 folks on the range and B) I know why we won WWII ) This is my 'field cover." But I also have one that I keep in the hat press and has a plastic rain cover I bought at a country western store highly recommended by oneof the state troopers I know. Bring the hat with you to get the cover to get the exact size. This is my "dress cover." BUT what I have recently done with the field cover is spray it with thestuff used to waterproof suede boots. No discoloration with spraying, but I have not used it in the rain, yet anyway.

There's a printed MBC lists?!?!?!?!? Yep the Librarian keeps a hold of it, if there is one, as wella s allthe other media. I know backin the day, my local public libary got a copy of the MBC list from the district that was bound at a local bindary.

My issue is when you have someone asking for ONE position, and they get passed over to give someone who ALREADY has 2-3 position yet another one. Depending upon the situation, it may or may not be a good idea. I know I recommended that one person be passed over for a position he wanted so that he could hold another position that we thought he could handle better and was more important overall. We also had a situation where a leader, wanted to be in a position that they had previously held and was vacant. There issues though that led to them being denied. #1 They held the position before, and did not do a very good job in it. #2 They were already doing 3 other jobs, and it was decided to allow them to focus on the other jobs.

As someone who has earned all 3 Catholic religious awards at the time (No Light of Christ in my day), here's my recollections. Parvuli Dei, the CS award at the time, was very easy as it was parent and son. No problems Ad Altari Dei, the BS award, you needed a couselor, and that can be tough at times. I eventually worked on it when one of our committee members became a counselor and the schedule worked out for us. Simple promotion: Anyone interested in AAD See Mr. XYZ. and we had about 4 or 5 that first go around. Eventually more followed. Pope Pius XII, the counselor di the same thing, and 3 of us did it. For me at least, it was the same tiem I was doing Confirmation classes, so they mirrored somewhat if memory serves. Don't remember the entire process as old age is getting to me. But I do remember the BOR for the award. But that is a different story

SM-T That's why I liked the Skill Awards program better than the mix of requirements. With the Skill Awards you focused on an entire skill set, i.e. all of today's T-2-1 Citizenship requirements would be the Citizenship SA; all the swimming T-2-1 requirements would be the Swimming SA, etc. So the Scouts worked on one particular skill set in toto for the Skill Awards. I know several folks from 72-89 era than got SAs think the scouts learned better under that method. But as OGE said, it's not the Scouts that are the problem, but the leaders who sign off before the scouts have actually mastered the skill.

In doing a little research, I've found that over time the OA has changed their stance on when to wear the sash. Prior to the mid 1980s, it appeared that the sash was worn only at OA events. Then it was OK to wear it to recognize Arrowmen, and the sash could even be worn with the dress uniform (that would have been fun at council banquets while I was a DE if i did that ). I asked my chapter to make more events "official" OA events because we had a visibility problem: very few folks outside the active members knew who the Arrowmen were and what we did. Folks just saw us running the concession stand, doing ceremonies, and that's it. Didn't know about the money from concessions going back into camp, or how we worked at the camp, etc. This became very obvious to me when I had a very long conversation with one candidate's mom. I spent almost 2 hours talking to her about the OA, about how the stuff she and her son read on the internet is bullkicky, how the OA doesn't get in the way of earning Eagle but enhances the Scouting experience etc. She didn't beleive me at all and finally ask, Does Mr. XYZ (the recently former SM) and Mr. ABC (the new SM) know anything about the OA and condone the behavior of its members? I had to tell her while I don't know Mr. ABC as he is new, Mr. XYZ is not only a member of the OA, but was a past lodge and section officer and knows more about the OA than I do, especially in regards to the local lodge since he's grown up in it over the past 40+ years. Telling her to talk to Mr. XYZ still didn't help as I don't think she believed me still. So to show who the members are, we started wearifn sashes more often. And this was esp. important b/c our new members do not get flaps after completing their Ordeal, they have to do 7 hours of work AS A MEMBER (emphasis) before buying a flap ( and don't ask I hate the policy and have tried to get it ammended and it won't happen, esp since national did away with honor borders. We almost got the by-law ammended when the national policy came out and everyone was ticked).

OGE, I agree with you, the youth are not failing the program, WE ADULTS ARE! As for time requirements and info I posted, point I was trying to make is that the time requirements will not discourage or really slow down folks who are motiviated. Trying to show that the FCFY program was based upon advancement stats that did have time requirements atthe T-2-1 levels. So arguments that they will slow and discourage new scouts are null and void IMHO. As to time requirements for the T-2-1 level, I admit I have mixed emotions. On one hand I do see it as a way to slow down the scouts a bit so that they truly master the basic scout skills as they are suppose to do. Paraphrasing the G2A, the badge represents WHAT THEY CAN DO, NOT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE (caps for emphasis) Or more specifically it will cause leaders who are rushing things through and are doing the "one and done" to pause and give them time to really master the skill. But as you stated, it's the adults, not the youth. And the adults may just keep on truckin.

SHOOT I know the title and can't think!!!!!!! Norman Rockwell is the artist. If someone doesn't answer before I get home, when I go into my sons' room, I'll tell ya. Oldest got a framed version of it in the room.

Again must respectfully with time requirements discouraging advancement at the T-2-1 stages. If memory serves, sorry don't have my 1979 ed. handbook I grew up with in front of me, it was possible even with the T-2-1 time requirements in 6-8 months. Although it did take most folks 12-18 months, again if memory serves. Also the research supporting the "First Class, First Year" program was orignally based on stats from before the 1989 requirement changes. So it is a fact that even with the time requirements at the T-2-1 levels, Scouts were getting FC in a year or less. Again the time requirements atthe T-2-1 stages allowed scouts to "master the skills" as expected per the BSHBs of the time. "One and done," was not a concept as you were expected to be able to do the T-2-1 skills at any time after earning the rank. In fact in some instances, i.e. First Aid Skill Award, you were TEACHING the skills prior to earning First Class. I vividly remember as a Second Class Scout teaching a Tenderfoot FA Skill Award in order to meet the "Teach First Aid Skill Award" requirement of First Aid Merit Badge, which at the time was required for First Class rank (OK there are three things I like about Improved Scouting: Skill Awards, Scouts on the T-2-1 BORs, and First Aid MB as a requirement for FC rank).

EMB, As an FYI at PDL-1, at least when I went through it, they promoted, promoted, promoted ( can you tell they STRONGLY SUGGESTED ) the concept of one leader, one job. However in the field you gotta use your resources. This came up last nite. I formally announced that I will not be the Webelos Den Leader next year, although most of the parents and a few of teh Cubs knew already, and intro'd the new WDL. Afterwards while the kids were playing, the parents were talking about the various leadership roles and how the idea of one job, one leader is best. Except for me, as they kept pushing me to be the CM in addition to being a TCDL and CSRT commish. NOT!

Quaz, I gotta respectfully disagree with ya. One of the 2 things I liked about the 'Improved Scouting" of the 1970s that held over until 1989 was the Skill Awards. They allowed a scout to focus on the basics of a particular skill in toto in order to get to T,2, or 1. So a Scout would focus on all of the Citizenship KSAs and one other for Tenderfoot. The time requirements allowed folks to "master the skills" that was expected by the scouts per the BSHBs of the time. The removal of the time requirements has encouraged the 'one and done" mentality IMHO.

In August 1989, national did away with the time requirements for T-2-1 when they unveiled OPERATION FIRST CLASS which became FIRST CLASS, FIRST YEAR. ( caps for titles, not shouting) Rational was that the time requirements hindered advancement to FC within a year, and that studies found that those who get FC in a year, stay in the program. Didn't survey if the scouts staying were in 'Hiking and Camping Troops." Also they did away with youth on the T-2-1 BORs at the same time. Although that word didn't get passed down for some until later.

What's worse is calling rules, "guidelines" as some folks are calling the new rules on tools and equipment usage.

Me personally wear the sash right or not at all. Even when I agreed with almost all the youth Arrowmen in one lodge that protested the rule forbidding honor borders by wearing their sashes inside out, I still woudl rather them not wear it at all. And whent he LA said fix 'em or take them off...well alot of folks were not wearing sashes. As for when something is an OA event or not, please keep up to date with the lodge and chapter. I had a bunch of folks when I was CA saying I could not turn XYZ district event into an OA event, so the sashes needed to come off. I said they were right inthat I couldn't declare it an official OA event, but the youth could and did at the last chapter meeting. Part of the sash wearing on our part came from the lack of "publicity" and knowledge on the OA. Kinda sad when a parent has no idea about the OA except for what they read on the internet, and demands to know if their former SM, who happens to be a Vigil and past lodge and section officer, knew anything about the OA and condoned the practices she read on the internet about the OA. So after that 1.5-2 hour converstaion, I asked the youth to consider wearing the sash more, and they said yes.

In regards to the CSRT Guide, I can only find the 2010-11 version. Hopefully I can get teh 2012-13 version for our Sept. RT. I'm hoping that the Joint CS/BS RT Cook Out will attract a lot of leaders. I do know some packs are struggling in our area, found that out at RT this past week talking to a BS leader about their feeder pack. We also have 1 CO that just does not attend any district or council events save camporees and day camp. They do the bulk of their activities with the rest of their stake, which is in another council.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER! I advise against doing the amazon, ebay, or any online route UNLESS it is a pack you have thoroughly checked out and played with some, i.e. you have tested one that another person owns. A pack is something that you don't want to just pick up off the street due to price considerations; you want to make sure it will A) Last, B) hold your gear, and C) it is comfortable. I made that mistake with my first backpack and canoe pack. First backpack I bought was a KMart "Blue Light Special" that had no hipbelt and cracked halfway the first trek it was on. MISTAKE! And you would have thought I learned my lesson from that, but NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO A year later I needed a frameless pack for canoeing up in Canada. We were given two recommendations: a canvas European ruck and an ALICE pack. The canvas was cheaper, and I bought that. MISTAKE. I used it as a book bag for school and within a month or so the bag fell apart. I went and got the ALICE pack, and 24 years later my oldest is now borrowing it.

1) Get them out of their current position and into another one or give them a break. I know I was getting burned out with OA. I needed a new role, and thankfully got one: TCDL. 2) To prevent burn out I recommend the following: A. KEEP A BALANCED LIFE! I know sometimes it's very easy to get caught up into scouting that your family life suffers, and this add stress. FAMILY IS IMPORTANT. B. Do not think you are indispensable. We have one leader who I think really needs to step down as they have caused problems, but they think they are indispensible and won't step away, which makes matter worse. C. Use help when offered and ask for it when needed. D. KISMIF More as I think about it.