Eagle92

Me personally I wish that Scouts could once again sit on the T-2-1 BORs like they could from 1972-1989. IMHO one of the few good things outta the "urban Scouting era,' and national screws it up. Oh Well. I think we all know why the GtA is around: folks not following policy. Whether they intentionally ignore it ( seen it happen), changes to advancement policy occurred and no one knows about it ( been part of that one, i.e sitting on BORs as a youth after the August 1989 policy change), Not being properly trained ( seen lots of it) and those who misinterpret policy. That last one has been a problem in my own district. Some folks who have been around a long time and should know better have misinterpreted the EBOR process (instead of seeing the either a unit committee with a council rep on the BOR or a District EBOR, they say the committee holds a BOR prior to see if the Life Scout is ready for the actual BOR, which we all know is incorrect). Hence the stringent policies.

Growing up, thrift store are where I got my uniforms, and also got uniforms to sell within my troop, minus the patches of course But locally, every single thrift store was contacted by our SCOUTREACH guy, and whenever they get uniforms, he gets them. If a uniform is in, it is by accident.

HOLY GUACAMOLE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!!!!! You do NOT do the things that were in the quiz EVER YP not only covers the youth, but yourself. If a 'He said/She Said" situation comes into play, BSA will takes the youth side every single time. Even if the youth in question is a known liar. I speak from some expereince on this. EDITED: had the whole thing bolded, not the important parts. I had some youth I and a few friends caught after hours at a NOAC once. We tried to bring them back, and they ran off. Long story short when busted by the Lodge Adviser, they started out by saying we gave them permission to stay out late, but eventually all recanted on their own, except one. He was eventually forced to recant. A year later, same youth is out after hours. One leader who had just gotten out of the showers and walking back to camp saw him out, and tried to get him back to camp. The youth accused the leader of inappropriate comments and contact. Leader is gone, youth remained and unfortunately got Eagle. Luckily to my knowledge he never got Vigil, despite being a lodge officer for some time. Now this story is second hand, but considering I was taken into the Scout Shop manager's office and told about it, and given a warning, I'll take it as fact. At another nationally owned scout shop, a long time volunteer turned part-time scout shop employee was accused of "inappropriate contact" with a youth when rolled up the CS neckerchief, placed it around the Cub's neck, put on the slide, and did the "slide to the nose" trick. All this in a scout shop full of people and in front of the mother. I use to do the exact same thing, and was told to stop. You always have 2 folks around, except in emergencies, i.e. life or limb situations.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

SP, We don't do anything special for tigers since we usually only get 1 a year. They have been incorporated with the Wolves.

Base, Since I got 2 sons going to camp this year, you can guess what I'm going to do. As for the PTB, we got a new, inexperienced DE that will also be away this summer since he's been assigned summer camp duties. Good news is we now have 3 folks NCS trained, so the CD can be replaced for next year. As for the PD, I would not call him clueless or lazy. I would call him trusting. He's kinda like me, gives people the benefit of the doubt and trusts them until burned. And I think the CD snowballed him like she did me when I first became PD. Again good news is I'm here to help whereas I had no one. As to supplies, craft supplies i.e. leather crafts, beads, etc. Unfortunately I don't think he has an inventory of supplies from the CD yet.

As you all know, after building up CSDC as Program Director (PD)for the past 2 years and dealing with a Camp Director (CD) that has caused a lot of challenges, I stepped down to be a TC DL at camp with middle son. But I said I would help in any way, shape or form. I did not want what happened to me happening to my replacement, i.e. being totally left on my own with no support from my CD and creating a program the kids want from scratch. So I gave my replacement copies of everything I had, met with him a few times, talked about issues, etc. BUT I did not want to cause problems with the new PD, usurp his authority, and butt in when not asked. So I stepped back, offered advice when asked, etc. It was very hard at first, but I got involved with a new hobby with the kids: model trains. So I have been outta the CSDC loop for 2.5 - 3 months now. Now over the past months I have heard from folks about their concerns for camp. I told them to give the new PD a chance as some ideas he has to improve camp are things that are needed to be done, and others are good ideas we've heard about from Camp School. But I still get comments of concern. Well I get an email last nite that has caused me some concern. Supplies not ordered yet, some volunteers no longer helping out, and a request for a meeting this upcoming week preceded by the comments "Yes. I'm willing to admit defeat." I have a feeling that the CD has struck again. It seemed as if things were going well between the two, heck he even got her email out of her, something I begged her for among other things I begged her for to run day camp. Anyway, needed to vent, especially since we got 5 weeks to camp.

As a former Swimming and Lifesaving MBC, national will no longer allow me to be an MBC since I no longer have my lifeguarding instructor certification, I can tell you that there is a very specific reason why the swim test is so long and is the very first thing you do: the amount of swimming you will be doing will easily triple during the course. If a scout is having problems doing the initial swim test, I also would talk to him about taking the course another time when he has the endurance. As a lifeguard instructor, I've had folks who had problems with the swim test, but were allowed to continue the course by the lead instructor, or my boss. These folks always had challenges during the course, with some folks taking the course 2 times and still not passing, and giving up. IMHO,Lifesaving MB is one of those you MUST keep standards high b/c if a scout believes he has the skills b/c of the MB, and he really doesn't, then you are putting both the rescuer and victim in danger.

He's from my home council, and a lot of folks know him in my neck of the woods. He actually came down while ACSE and did a talk at the Council banquet, as well as some other meetings. From What I gather, he's been the force to try things like ATVs and jet skis as experimental programs.

I've been sent to get 50 feet of shoreline, and I did it. Got two large cups, went to the waterfront, and scooped up 50 feet in a straight line. Went back to the SPL, and proceeded tolay out the 50 feet of shoreline on the ground no biggie. Went after a left handed wrench too. I went to the tool box, got a wrench and shifted it to my left hand. Now I did encourage the O WAH TA GOO SIAM skit at PDL-1, and national trainers blew a gasket. I didn't see the big deal though. I just don't encourage sending folks out to find 50 feet of fallopian tubes when you have a female staffer, even though she herself pulled some stunts on staff. Best stunt I know of was payback for a camp director putting a bunch of lobsters in the staff showers. In the middle of the night, some staffers towed his jeep to an accessible, but out of the way place, jacked up his jeep, removed his tires, and used them as compass course markers. Only complaint was that the jeep was blocking the main "road" for the wilderness area, and an emergency vehicle would not get through. Otherwise no problems. Also I was told that all pranks among staff stopped after that one. @Fish, I personally like a quote attributed to Col. Gregory "Pappy" Boyington, USMC (ret.) of VMF 214 fame, "Don't get made, get even. And don't get even, get ahead!"

Fred, Again you gotta know your scouts. I would not let a 10 yo new cross over who barely passed the swim test take Swimming MB when I know that he is not emotionally capable of accepting failure yet, i.e. evidence by meltdowns not being able to do new skills immediately (I know that's another issue). And you are using your expereince as a swimming and lifeguard instructor, as well as Swimming and Lifesaving MBC, to evaluate his skills and chance of completing the MB. As for the swimming and lifesaving together comment, you are right I know of scouts who have done both, usually in the 15-17 yo range. So I should clarify: I would NOT let a YOUNGER scout take both swimming and lifesaving MBs during the same week of camp. With one exception, a swim team member who is use to hours of non-stop practice in the pool. Again I am using my experiences as swimming and life guard instructor and my knowledge of the scouts to base the decision. EDITED: Fred, No worries as you are looking out for your scouts, and that is a good thing! Also didn't answer the pioneering comment. Again knowing your scouts is the key. If a scout is having problems with basic pioneering/marlinspike work, and is having emotional meltdowns, you got to get them to focus on the basics and get them to the point where they know that stuff, before they can start work on pioneering projects. I'll give you an example. Prior to the ban on pioneering projects over 5 feet without a harness, helmet, and belay lines, my troop built a Bosun's Chair for scout shows: 15-25' high tripod tower on one side and a 25-30' tripod tower on the other. A cable was connected betweenthe two towers and a chair on a rosa gold was attached to it. IT WAS A RUSH! and we had a 30 minute wait for folks to ride it. Now we as a troop would go over all that stuff and practice building smaller towers at meeting about 4-8 weeks prior. Everyone got a chance to work on the patrol towers during the meetings, and they were only about 5 feet or so high. Well one year we had an 11 or 12yo join our troop and the first meeting was practice for scout show. He was having a very difficult time learning the knots, and the lashings were just as difficult. We worked and worked and worked with him, but he could not do the lashings correctly. And we told he needed to get it right before we let him do lashings on the tower. Well he gets very upset, making a scene etc. Tried to explain the safety reasons why we needed very good lashings on the tower, that everyone had roles to play at the scout show, and that it was fun to see the different booths. Well he didn't listen and we never saw him again. So that's why I like to avoid the breakdowns: if kids have fun they stay active and learn.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

EDITED: DRAT! The dreaded double post!(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Fred, Must respectfully disagree. There are alot of factors involved in letting a Scout take or not take a MB IMHO. And for some MBs with some Scouts, a SM needs to counsel and advise the scout not to take. And sometimes if the scout tries to ignore the SM, The SM does need to say, "No." Take Swimming MB. If you know a scout is having problems, say just barely passing the swimm test. You may want to advise him to do instructional swim instead of taking the MB course that in all likelyhood he will fail. Especially if he is a scout who takes failure extremely hard like a few scouts I've met along the ways who had just crossed over. And I'd tell him point blank "No." If he was trying for Lifesaving MB as well. And yes I have met Scouts who thought they could pull off both Swimming and Lifesaving the same week of summer camp. Pioneering may be another MB I would tell a new scout "No" to, advising him to focus on the T-2-1 pioneering skills and mastering them first before moving on. In regards to the "Your Troop...My Troop,' maybe, maybe not. Or it may be based upon expereince dealing with scouts of different types of personalitities, and knowing your scouts and how they will react to failure. Again that's part of the counseling process. But as I have said repeatedly, Scouting does provide a safety net for Scouts to fail and learn from it. And sometimes it is advantageous for them to try and fail. But sometimes it isn't. Knowing your scouts is the key.

Maybe it's from my cheap old days, i.e. when I was a poor HS and college student, but I love USGI boots. I had a pair of ALTAMAs that lasted 11 years. And that included 3 summers on camp staff, lots of OA service, hiking, camping, and 1 CSDC. Sole finally broke, and for a little more I could buy a new pair of boots. I have on my feet at this very moment Tactical Research's KHYBER boot. Tactical Research is a subsidiary of BELLEVILLE When I got them, they felt like running shoes, in fact iI have not worn athletic shoes since I got them last year, and required very little break in. I did need to buy some 550 cord to make new laces as the ones they came with and replacement laces in general are too short. I needed a little over 7 feet per lace. Traction is EXCELLENT, but mud does tend to stay in the soles untilyou come inside. This is a negative as the wife gets on my case. After about a year or so the leather started separating fromt he sole on one boot. This problem and the fact that they are made in China are the only negatives. And the problem was easily fixed with a little E6000. When I do buy my next pair, I am going with the BELLEVILLE 333 Sabre, which is an almost identical boot, but Berry compliant.

I'd go with a leather or vinyl clothesline Turk's head knot woggle. Paracord is OK, but I've had some challenges.

Back in the day, my troop banned radios and videogames. Don't know if the rule staretd with adults, but the scouts enforced it and continued it. Part of the reason was that we wanted folks to know what was going on, and we allknew of instances where folks walking just stopped paying attention and things happened. Also we wanted folks to work as patrols an not get too tied up in the electronics. While I did not see this problem on the troop level, I did on the summer camp level. I knew of a camping director who was so tied up with his satelite TV and video games, that the program director got caught up into it as well, select area directors got tied up into it, and things were nto really getting done. Staff morale suffered, and camp suffered. While I prefer the no electronics rule for a variety of reasons, it's a youth run program. If the PLC wants them, let them have them until problems occur. Then let them deal with the problems.

Don't know how high up the food chain you are in regards to camp, but Desertrat77 reminded me of two things: traditions, and that led me to great Camp Key 3: Camp Director, Program Director, Business Director. Long story short, I worked at a camp that had great facilities, but for whatever reason, something was missing, and that was some of the traditions, both staff and camper. Even with long term staffers who were there, 15, 20, 25+ years and knew of them and wanted them reimplemented, the CDs, BDs, and some of the PDs didn't see the value of them for whatever reason. Then the first year I worked there, we had a Aquatics director who was back in school for his masters. He was a former pro, and had worked at the camp before being a DE. He was able convince the new CD to restart one of the staff traditions that tied into customer service; staff dominoes. It was funny b/c it was a "Top Secret" project during staff week with only the CD, PD, BD, AD, and camp QM in the know and making the domino lanyards. Friday night of staff week, we have a Staff campfire (part of the tradition), and did the Staff Domino Ceremony. And things turned around with the camp. As I mentioned having a good Camp Key 3 is VITAL to a camp's success. If you have problems with 1, it will cause MAJOR problems with staff, which in turn affects the camp. And I'll give The AD above, when he finished his masters ended up becoming the council's Program Director, responsible for all programing, including being Camp Director at summer camp. The 3-4 years he was CD were AWESOME as the camp was revitalized. Staff were the best and brightest, program was excellent, and we had troops coming back to the camp after years of going elsewhere. I returned to the area and was on staff his last year, and saw first hand the changes. Unfortunately, he got offered a promotion, and he left the council. Many of the staffers wanted to go with him to work at one of his new camps he was responsible for, but he knew that the camp needed their experience. He told everyone that he would not hire a single one of them his first year out west, but possibly the second year. All except the Program Director. So the CD and PD went out west. Their replacements left a lot to be desired. Basically the new CD took over b/c there was a bonus for working camp. He was horrible. During staff week a tropical storm was going to hit the camp, and he panicked. Other folks had to tell him what to do, b/c he was freaking out. We had other problems, and others had to tell him what to do. He basically stayed in his room and watched satellite TV. Yes he brought his dish from home. No visiting units, no walk arounds, very few staff meetings. As you can guess morale plummeted. Heck one of the reasons why I quit my job with supply was disagreements with the CD on some issues, and the lack of support from my boss at supply. It took the boss 3 or 4 months after camp ended to fully understand the severity of the problems encountered at the camp. But by that point, everything was moot. Ditto with the PD, which I am sad to say I recommended as he did a great job the previous year. He also didn't do much except watch TV with the CD, play board games with a select few of the directors (cliques is another thing to avoid), and raid the dining hall refrigerators at nite. Again didn't really do his job, and moral plummeted. Now the BD was very, very good, and did his best to save the camp. But when 2 of the 3 Key 3 are not doing their job, that's a problem. He did his best, and if memory serves he was CD the following year, and he DID turn things around eventually. But it took a year or two if I remember conversations with friends correctly.

A few general comments 1) CUSTOMER SERVICE!!!!!!!! You say you got a great staff, but think objectively, you are a staffer after all, and put yourself in the shoes of the Scouts and SMs. Does your staff care? 2) Does your camp have adequate staff to keep low scout:instructor ratios. 3)Besides MB classes, what other program opportunities do your offer, i.e. nite time activities, camp wide games, etc? 4) How the heck are your promoting the camp?

Well you mentioned the Dutch, gotta tell my Dutch story. It's 9:30 or 10PM and the campfire is going strong. Singing, talking etc etc. Dutch leader pulls out a marijuana cigarette and starts smoking. I go over to the Warden's house and tell him what's up. Apparently it's a common challenge as marijuana is legal in Holland. Conversation went like this between the Warden (W) and the Dutch Leader (DL) W You know those cigarettes are not legal here in the UK, DL NO?!?!?! W No they are not you are going to have to give them to me. DL Ok, ok. So what do yo do for fun> W Oh we go to the pub. DL Pub, Where is nearest pub? W About 50 meters. When you leave camp, go about three meters and look to your right and you'll see a trail. Take the trail for about 30 meters and you'll hit the road. Turn right and go down the road about 20 meters and you'll hit the first one. Go down about 10 meters further and you hit the second one. And follwo the road to the beach and there is a third. Dl OK, thank you. We gfot ot pub now.

If you want a complete Den Mother uniform, PM me. I got one inmy closet that I may be able to sell.

At PDL-1, I was taught one of the DE's jobs was to write the minutes and distribute them to the committee members for their records, and for approval.

By request, I've spun off a story as to why my smokey bear has holes it it. It was shot at by German Scouts. I did the European Camp Staff Program (ECSP) while in college. In a nut shell the ECSP is an exchange program where an American Venturer or Scouter, gotta be between the ages of 18 and 30 to do it, agrees to work at a Scout camp in Europe for a minimum of 6 weeks. You don't get paid, staff at the camps I was at were volunteers except the rangers called "wardens." But you do get free food, free shelter, and 1/2 your travel expenses paid up to $400 (although that may have increased). If you want to see Europe on the cheap it's one way to go. I spent 11.5 weeks there. Anyway back to the story. One of my jobs was supervising the rifle range. they use air rifles in the UK. One day we had a German troop on the range, and they were shooting horribly. The metal container that you put the targets in and collects the spent rounds in fell off the mounting wall. I screamed cease fire, waited, and when I thought it was clear by looking and listening, went downrange to fix the problem. While remounting the target box, someone fires an air rifle downrange and thankfully hit my smokey bear and not my head. I've been told I'm hard headed, but I don't think It would have stopped the round. I turned around, used some choice, non-Scoutlike words, until I realized I was not on military range but a scout one, and calmed down. Warden had a little discussion with me about the language, but understood. Another rifle range story. We had some Girl Guides at camp and they were the very first group I supervised on the range by myself. Anyway I was showing the ladies how to align the front and rear sights using my hands since I had no posters. So I stick out my left hand with the index finger raised and the backof the hand facing them to simulate the front sight. I then proceed to make a V with my right hand, also with the back of my hand facing them. That was when I heard a gasp of shock and saw a shocked look on everyone's faces. I didn't know what was up and kept on going. About 30-40 minutes after they left the range, the camp warden shows up and we have a nice discussion. That's when I learned that i gave all the Girl Guides teh 'Two Finger Salute" that means "go forth and multiply." It's also when I learned that our "One Finger Salute" is actually a politer version of the Two Finger Salute, and that Winston Churchil was not giving a V for Victory sign during WWII, but was actually trying to tell Hitler to..."go forth and multiply." Any one else has international stories?

Watch that last comment on canoes. I had a canoe repaired with duct tape do open water once long ago Also had a friend fix his shoes with black duct tape back in the day.

EDITED: "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get use to disappointment." "Okay.' (sorry couldn't resist ) Original Response: 2 folks in my council.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

This is my $.02 worth. 1) An MBC can limit who he will work with. They can limit it to one particular troop, they can set age limits if they want, and they can select rank requirements. He's not adding to requirements, he's stating who he will work with. 2) Me personally I do not believe he is adding to the requirements. Gotta remember part of the MB process is working with adults. There may be a reason for it. I'll give ya one. I was talking to a cycling MBC who would meet with the scouts, develop a plan with them, etc. He trusted them to do the work and he saw them on the final ride to check off their work and see them complete the MB. Long story short, he could tell when folks did and did not do they work they were suppose to do, even though they and their parents said they did it. Now he works all the requirements with them.

Brew, BUT it is one of the jobs of the WDL to get them ready. My advice is to get a good Denc Chief, and start letting the DC run things,i.e conducting meetings, signing off on advancement, talking about troop programing, etc. Also I know that in my pack, historically the Web Is don't do anything with the troop until the Web II's cross over. I'm hoping to change it a bit b/c A) my Bear den is chomping at the bit to camp more ( had one last month and another next week. AND had a parent ask "When can they start camping as a Webelos Den?") and B) I know the district camporee chief has some wickedly good ideas that I know the Webelos would like to see.