Eagle92

Developing a good SPL doesn't happen overnight. As previously mentioned, it takes years. It starts the day the scout visits the troop and wants to join. What example did the older scouts present to him? Were they welcoming, helpful, friendly, courteous...? It continues as the scout works his way up through the T-2-1 ranks. How does the other scouts in his patrol, as well as the troop treat him? What example are they setting? Are they working and teaching him? It also continues as he accepts more responsibility within his patrol. How well does he do the jobs he's assigned by the PL? If elected PL, how does he do? What type of example does the SPL, older scouts working on the troop level, and the rest of the PLC set for him? Is the SPL or others mentoring him? Is he learning from his mistakes? It culminates when he gets put into the troop level PORs, and most especially when he gets elected SPL. How is he doing workign with the PLs and younger scouts? What example is he setting? Training helps as it can goes into specifics of leadership. It also helps him to learn his weaknesses and how to improve. But the best way to develop is for him to look to the examples of the older scouts.

Don't know, KUDU may know. But here's my assumption and rationale behind it. I bet he would be 100% for it, as well as BP. If you look at BP's Scouting for Boys, World Brotherhood edition, there is no mention of 'boards of review" but there are "courts of honor" which roughly correspond to our modern, Patrol Leader's Council. In it BP talks about how establishing a "court of honor" to run things is vital to a troop existence, and is what kept some troops alive when their leaders went off to serve in WWI. And I see having youth serve on the BOR as the best way to meet the goals of a BOR. But as you said we don't live in a perfect world. I see folks being treated, and acting like, children until the mid to late 20s. Heck I friends from HS who are in their 30s still acting like frat boys. I see and talk to parents of high school students almost weekly now who are trying to set up stuff for their children in order to graduate from HS. I know I had a much harder requirement, 100 hours of actual community service and not just 5-20 hours of "job shadowing" that I and my peers were responsible for arranging and doing.

RichardB, Actually I saw Cubs with little red wagons Memorial Day Weekend using them to carry around US flags for a service project. Didn't have the heart to tell them that the BSA now bans them using little red carts for service projects. Did tell the leaders and they thought I was joking. had to tell them to look it up as it was a new rule. They were not happy about the new rules.

Gotta agree with Beavah on this. If an adult believes that PLC members would act like this, then why do they get involved in Scouting at all? The patrol method is the FOUNDATION of scouting. if an adult takes away responsibility, or even hints at the Scouts not being capable of doing something, then that adult is a problem, not the youth. Green Bar Bill said it best, "Train them, trust them, let them lead." If an adult cannot trust their scouts, then that is a major problem. If anything, I bet the problem was that the Scouts on the BOR were keeping higher standards than the adults on the BOR were. I've seen that a time or two in my career where the scouts wouldn't sign off on requirements that an adult would. I know on the BORs I went through at the T-2-1 level, and later that I sat on, the youth on the BOR was the chair, as well as the ones my peers sat on, the youth led the discussion among the BOR members, the youth was the one that influenced the others, and the youth was the one to announce the decision and congratulate the scout. I take that back I know of 1 BOR where the youth sat back with a 'deer in the headlights" look, and didn't really know what to do. And that was me the first time I was a BOR member.

bnelon44, While the "mastering the skills" comment is no longer in the BSHB, similar wording is in the GtA. GTA says the badge represents what the scout is capable of doing, not recognition for what he has done. For me that means that if I ask a Star, Life, or Eagle to do a T-2-1 skill, they should be able to do it, hence mastery. So the expectation of mastering scout skills is given to adults, not the ones who need to know this: the youth of the unit. As to why having a youth on the T-2-1 BORs? Why for a variety of reasons. 1) The youth tend to know who is doing the work and who isn't. While the BOR is not a retest, their job is to see that the scout has done the work. And a Scout sometimes knows more than the adults about what is going on. So a PLC member ( FYI, I'm also including the older scouts in troop level PORs in my definition of a "PLC member") is in a better position than a committee member. 2)Who is in a better position to make sure that the scout is having a good time, a member of the PLC or an adult committee member? Obviously the PLC member since they have worked with the scout and/or member s of his patrol. 3) Who is in a better position to encourage a T-2-1 scout to continue in the program, a PLC member that he may look up to, or an adult committee member? Is still remember passing my FC BOR, and encouragement that my SPL gave me when he congratulated me and told me he expects to see me in 4 months for Star. 4) Who has a greater impact on a unit's program, the PLC or the committee? So it stands to reason that having a member of the PLC on the BOR helps fulfill the BORs other goal of making sure that the unit's program is in fact meeting the needs of the youth. 5) Who has a better opportunity to see and understand the scout's attitudes, accomplishments and acceptance of Scouting's ideals, the PLC member of a committee member. 6)The BSA keeps saying we want the scouts to be leaders, so why not put them on BORs and let them assume more responsibility? Paraphrasing BP here, why let an adult do something that a Scout is capable of doing? (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Most of the folks I know who would be in this POR wear an ASM patch. My understanding is that this new position was created for those councils that have mandated training for unit leaders. This position only requires YPT to be considered "trained." Now if you were in the College Scouter Reserve (92), then you could wear no numbers, silver loops, and a district committee patch . And if memory serves, its only 1 of 2 PORs that under 21yos can have and be on the district committee.

Also if you have your ID number, put it, and a copy of your current card, attached tothe app.

Getting into the conversation late so bear with me. In reference to mastery of scouting skills and the badge representing what a scout is capable of doing, that goes all the way back to BP in 1907. I think up until the current BSHB, the phrase "mastering scout skills," or something very similar, was in each book. That is no more. And I think that is a terrible loss. And while the requirements may have been written as "one and done," if you look at the literature, you will see that the youth are the ones TEACHING (emphasis) those skills to the younger scouts. Whether it's T-2-1 First Aid, Totin chip, etc. One of the things I liked about mixed age patrols. Heck I remember being taught Canoeing MB skills by older scouts, and teaching those skills in turn. Especially when I was prepping for a 64 mile canoe trip in the Canadian wilderness. As for 12 and 13 year old not taking the sign off responsibility seriously, HOGWASH! The key them taking responsibility is the example example of the older scouts and adults. I vididly remember being assigned to teach the First Aid Skill Award, and given the admonition, "Make sure he knows the stuff and can do, 'cause someone's life may be on the line." As i have found out, when the general public hears "Boy Scout" and there is a First Aid emergency, they go to the Scout, even if he's a brand new, just crossed over Scout who hadn't earned his First Aid Skill Award yet. As to the other skills, again I like how mixed age patrols allows older scouts to partner up and train the younger ones. And when the PL signs off, he KNOWS that the scout knows his stuff. BP said it best, The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond. And I HATE (emphasis) that national no longer allows Scouts to sit on BORs, as they did from 1972-1989. Probably the best idea of the entire urban Scouting failure, and they decide to stop it. As to the rationale behind FCFY, yep national did the research but didn't take into account of program. An active program, not one forced down the throats of scouts liek some have done, will get a scout to FC in a year or so.

The insignia guide did mention "Drum and Bugle Corps" at one time. Only time I saw a band was at NOAC and in the UK.

"And if I had my way, Life would probably require completing a 50-miler, and Eagle would probably require leading one. " Sea Scout Quartermaster requires something simlar Quartermaster Cruise: Take command of a vessel with a crew of not less than four Sea Scouts for at least 40 consecutive hours, including two nights. You must delegate and supervise all duties. During the cruise complete the following: Inspect the vessel for required equipment; supervise all menu preparation; prepare the boat to get underway with a proper checklist approved by the adult leaders; anchor, dock, and maintain course by commands to the helmsman; remain underway for an extended period during darkness; and discuss appropriate nighttime running procedures. While underway, perform the following drills: man overboard, damage control, abandon ship, fire, collision, and any other drills used by your ship. During this cruise no substantial errors may be committed.

I am going to quote some of the things that weak SMs do not do. From Baden-Powell "See things from the boy's point of view." "Success in training the boy depends largely on the Scoutmaster's own personal example." A boy carries out suggestions more wholeheartedly when he understands their aim. Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader. Robert Baden-Powell Success in training the boy depends largely on the Scoutmaster's own personal example. "The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond." Scoutmasters deal with the individual boy rather than with the mass. The object of the patrol method is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy. The Scoutmaster teaches boys to play the game by doing so himself. When you want a thing done, Dont do it yourself is a good motto for Scoutmasters. "Scouting is not an abstruse or difficult science: rather it is a jolly game if you take it in the right light. In the same time it is educative, and (like Mercy) it is apt to benefit him that giveth as well as him that receives." The Scoutmaster guides the boy in the spirit of an older brother.... He has simply to be a boy-man, that is: (1) He must have the boy spirit in him: and must be able to place himself in the right plane with his boys as a first step. (2) He must realise the needs, outlooks and desires of the different ages of boy life. (3) He must deal with the individual boy rather than with the mass. (4) He then needs to promote a corporate spirit among his individuals to gain the best results. "If a man cannot make his point to keen boys in ten minutes, he ought to be shot !" Green Bar Bill "Help them(PLs) occasionally with constructive criticism. But do your coaching on the side lines always, never in front of the Patrols." "Train them, trust them, let them lead." My personal favorite. Never heard of it before tonite, but agree with it as it is almost identical to my "Al Bundy Approach to Being a SM" "An old experienced Scoutmaster said once: "The test of the Patrol Method is in the easy chair!" His audience looked nonplused, so he elaborated his statement: "Get an easy chair and place it in a corner of the Troop meeting room. If you can sink into it just after the opening ceremony and just sit throughout the meeting, without a worry for its success, without lifting a finger or moving a foot until time comes for the closing-well, then your Troop is run on the Patrol Method-your boy leaders are actually leading."

In regards to Lions, HECK NO! Sorry the cub scout program is long enough as is. I admit I'm partial to the old 3 year program I grew up with, but know that is a thing of the past except with LDS units. I wouldn't mind going to a 4 year program, like what happened after I became a Cub. But I know it aint happening. Tigers need to be the lowest age group.

Sorry about the underlining. only SUPPORT was to be underlined.

I hate to say it, but I see it as more indoors stuff. Why do I say that? 1) The current Boy Scout handbook has little to know info in it on basic outdoor Scouting skills. When I did IOLS in January, I ended up using 2 websites (THANKS KUDU) and my old BSHBs and Fieldbook to make a booklet on outdoor skills for the folks to use. 2) They royally screwed up Green Bar Bill's quote that "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." Sorry, butit is NOT 2/3s. 'Nuff said.

Hawk, With all due respect, no one, emphasizing NO ONE can ever fill Green Bar Bill's shoes. He did so much, was such a vital influence to scouting and generations of scouts, that no one can come close to him. All we can do is try to live up his patrol methodology. 'TRAIN THEM, TRUST THEM, LET THEM LEAD!" Now I agree we need some heavy hitters to be Chief Scouts. Mike Rowe has my vote. Not too knowledgeable on modern pop culture, I gave up cable TV when I could no longer afford it and being in the boonies I don't get regular TV thanks to the FCC switching to digital and basing their reception ranges on 30 foot high antennas. So I don't really know who else would be a good candidate.

I just wish the statement, paraphrasing here, "the badge represents what the Scout is capable of doing, not a reward for what he has done" would be used a heck of a lot more throughout the document AND the BSA handbook. better still bring back the wording from previous BSHBs that scouts "master the skills." and have it repeatedly used throughout all BSA literature.

I admit I'm a uniform policeman So here's my $.02 worth. I see the various knots as recognition for adults who go the extra mile. I would not hand them out arbitrarily because I feel it would be disrespectful to those who did legitimately earn them. I know the Round Table or Univ. of Scouting requirement is probably the hardest. Especially if your RT is useless to non-existent. But maybe step up to the plate and offer to help get the RT on the right path. I admit my RT attendance has been mostly Boy Scout RTs for a variety of reasons, but most importantly because we did not have a set CSRT. The BSRTs did help out with most of the district info though. I also admit that while I did 3 or 4 RTs when I was day camp program director, I also didn't help get the RTs on the right path because I had other, more pressing duties. But once I stepped down ad CSDC program director and had my replacement committed, when offered I took the RT position. And I can tell you, your RT commissioners do need help. It cannot be one man shows. So if your RT is having challenges, and you can help out, do offer.

Lots of good things already mentioned form what I've read. Admit haven't read them all. here's things I've seen or heard done. 1) 1 leader entire week with other leaders/parents in and out of camp. 20yo ASM was the "Camp SM" with all the other adults reporting to him. 2) Two, and in one instance 3, units short staffed staying in the same campsite and working together to cover leadership. 3) A staffer, and in the case of a provisional troop 2 staffers, assigned to be the leaders for the week. 4) DE assigned as a leader for the unit for a week. This was a brand new unit, as in it became "official" about a month or two before they went to camp. Took me 5 months to get it started, and I wasn't going to let anything prevent it from attending summer camp and getting the scouts hooked. Bad news is that I couldn't go on the HA expedition I was suppose to lead, and ended up teaching Lifesaving MB that week as well.

You'll get a bunch of different answers on this topic as all scouting is local. Some packs will allow district and council activities, some wont. Don't know about the purpose of res camp, didn't got o NCS for it, but day camp's (CSDC) purpose is to support

I didn't add Cub Scout Day Camp and resident for 2 reasons. #1 My experience was based upon Boy Scout summer camp, so that is what immediately came to mind, and #2 because of the way each district and council can set up CSDC, I don't think that would be a good option as is. I would use some requirements like 7-8 hours/day and 5 consectutive days as qualifiers. CS Res camp on the other hand would be good.

I'd make some modifications, overall spot on. In regards to RichardB, I'ld keep him on not only for the reasons mentioned. One thing I'd add though is ALL national folks, from the part-time Scout Shop clerk to the CSE, need to take a 2 week, preferably 4 but don't think feasible except in some positions, trip to a local summer camp to work as staffers and get a dfeel for those of us in the field. I recommend that because when I was working for national supply in a pilot program, my immediate boss could not understand some of the things I both needed to do and wanted to do. That is until the boss was assigned to be on jambo staff and lived like I did, ok I had a cabin and the boss lived in a tent, and worked some of the hours I worked, boss had me beat there as jambo staff only worked forty hours, I did between 70-90 each week depending upon what was goign on.

I followed oldest from Tiger to Bear. He's ready for me to move along, and I need to be the TCDL with middle son. I'll be with him for Tiger and Wolves, then move back to Tigers with youngest. Youngest is stuck with me all the way through

SSSSSSSSSSSSWWWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes I am shouting! Now only if they it was out about 15-20 years ago, i know a guy who would have been a shoe in for it. His project was building portable obstacles to help train the SAR dogs, and as soon as he was old enough legally to join the local SAR team, he did.

Add Jim Mora, former head coach of the New Orleans Saints to the list of Eagles. My HS theology teacher coached Mora when he was on one of the USMC teams and he paid us a nice visit. Also sent me a very nice congratulations letter when I got Eagle. I know somewhat how you feel I've paid for things out of pocket for others and have been burnt. I've donated equipment I've had, stuff that I now regret giving away, only to have the unit use and abuse, throwing it away. I've went and got donations for a unit and when they folded, the equipment was no where to be found to give to other units in their situation. And I've gone out of my way to get a uniform for one kid, when my own son could have used the stuff but was buying his own, only to have the scout disappear after giving it to him It is frustrating, aggravating, etc. While I don't have the resources now like I use to, I now have 2 sons in Cubs, while i would be more cautious in giving stuff away, I would , but make them 'pay" with sweat equity. As for the coach, I'd have a nice chat with folks.

With the older shirts, bet you can still due with current CS shirts, you bring the slide up high enough that if you lift the up the bottom of the necker, the slide hits your nose. This really works if you wear the necker the "correct" way, i.e. over a tucked under collar .