Eagle92

Me personally it depend on the role I'm in and/or the uniform I'm in. If I'm in my DL uniform or CSRT uniform, CS sign it is. I have three sets of district uniforms now: Venturing and 2 Sea Scout. In the Venturing uniform it's the Venturing Sign. Sea Scout is Scout Sign.

Base has some good ideas. I'd add the following #1 Put more outing in Scouting. Yes more kids are staying indoors, but I've foudn that if you can get them hooked, they love the outdoors. #2 GET RID OF SOME OF THE STUPID RULES COMING OUT OF IRVING!!!!! (And yes that's me shouting ) Sorry but the last batch of rules in regards to service projects is nothing but pure HORSE HOCKEY! It's sad when you tell Cubs that they cannot use little red wagons to carry flags to put on graves for a service project, only to be laughed at by them b/c they think is is a joke. As for the no laser tag rule, give me a break. Church groups do laser tag. And do NOT get me started on the pioneering project rules. My troop stopped doing scout shows over them, only going to the one in which Green Bar Bill was the guest of honor of once the no higher than 5 feet rule came out in 1989.

I'm one of those deathbed Eagles with my BOR being 1 month 6 days after turning 18. Spent more time as a Life Scout, over 4 years, than T-2-1-S combined. One thing to remember though, in 1949 Sea Scouts, Exploring, Air Scouts, and Rovers ( and am I missing anything Emb? )was much more popular than Sea Scouts and Venturing is today. And these programs continue the Scouting journey and provided more challenges and adventure for the youth. So I would love to compare the Quartermaster, Ranger, Ace, and Rambler Awards stats to today's Quartermaster and Silver Stats.

Don't know if I would call it odd, but these are some of the ceremonies I've done, coached, seen, or heard about. Obviously the Tap Outs (I'm an old fogey you know )Call Outs, Pre Ordeal, Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil. But also Arrow of Light and Crossovers, Campfire Lighting, Vigil Re-dedication, Eagle, OA rededication, and Broken Arrow Ceremonies,

Camp is 2.5 weeks away. We have some challenges still. Long story short I've had 5 folks, including some staffers, that have some concerns. Staff meeting is Saturday, and I am hoping all will be well.

Been around for a long time, with the exception of the NCS certifie4d folks which is 5 years. Part of the rationale is that things change, which is true, and also to make sure folks remember what is suppose to be done. I remember getting my CS bb and archery cert and when I went to CSDC, the CD was saying we needed to do things which were no longer required. They hadn't been recertified. PLUS they tried to tell me I was doing something wrong, when the new procedures showed the change and I was correct. I view it like I view CPR: that's one skill I don't mind redoing every 2 years ( or in the case of CPR every two weeks when I teach class )

Because IOLS is a heck of a lot easier to type than Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills.

Bnelon, If you review what I wrote, I stated "B-P suggested that if a scout can perform the skills he has a badge for, he should turn in the badge and redo it." Again Baden-Powell said that if a scout could not do the skills, then he should return the badge until he could do them. No troop tradition of that sort was needed in my troop growing up, as when we tested the scouts, we made darn sure that they had "mastered the skill" per the BSHBs of the time before sign off. Then to keep the scouts proficient, we had them teach the younger scouts. So there was no need to turn in badges in my troop. As for one and done being a historical precedent from way back, the argument could be said for 'mastering the skills" prior to signing off advancement is histrocical precedent since it was stated in the BSHBs. Mastery implies knowing a skill so well that it becomes second nature, and you can recall the skills 6 months, 8 months, or in some cases years after leaning them. Best example of the last was the old fogey who was a lifeguard instructor in his younger days doing a rescue with out equipment and using the techniques he learned and taught in his teens and early 20s. Like the examples I gave you in a previous post, I would expect a Star, Life, or Eagle Scout to know his T-2-1 Skills. If I had a scout who got stung and was going into shock, I would expect the Star, Life, or Eagle Scout to know what to do and then do it. Or as a real world situation I know about, I would expect a First Class, Star, Life, or Eagle Scout to recognize when another scout has hypothermia and treat him, as the life they save was mine I would expect that a First Class Scout or higher to know how to tie knots needed to rescue someone, secure a canoe or whatever. I would expect that a First Class Scout or higher to know how to set up a tent and a patrol campsite, making sure there is proper distances from water sources and sanitation, patrol has duty roosters, etc etc. And I would expect that a First Class Scout or higher to be able to teach any T-2-1 skill to new scouts. Again not retesting, but expectations. Going to paraphrase BP here as I can't remember the exact quote, but agree with it 110% AND from my education days know that there is research to back it up. Have high expectations for your scouts and give them the responsibility to meet the expectations, and they will always do better than if you just have them try their best to do something. And yes some old school educators who don't believe in all the current theories of education today did research on the topic to prove that if you give students expectations and goals, they will do better than if they just do their own thing without guidance or expectations. Sorry remember the research as it has been years, but the science teacher in CA that they made a movie of was somehow involved in it. So if you don't expect the scouts to know the skills once it is signed off in the book, maybe you need to increase your expectations as the scouts will live up to them.

When I had my ECOH way back in the day, I paid for the following: Invitations Programs Cake about 50% of the food Thank you gifts to leaders and older scouts. OH and the POST Reception Party where ya had to be 18+ to go to What the troop, or members of, paid for: Presentation Kit Gift for me 50% of the food (had folks bring stuff for the event including the 'INFAMOUS TOXIC WASTE" drink) and that was it.

Actually if I read correctly, and KUDU please pipe in as you are more knowledgeable in this area of Scouting history, B-P suggested that if a scout can perform the skills he has a badge for, he should turn in the badge and redo it. As for BSA scouts and returning badges, I know growing up that once you earned the badge, it was EXPECTED (emphasis)that you had mastered the skills required per the BSHB of the time, and that you could do them whenever asked or needed. It was also expected that the scouts taught the skills to the younger scouts. In fact in reflecting upon my 11 years as a youth and adult in my old troop, I can think of less than 10 times that adults did teaching. 4 times was a MB class that some older scouts wanted, 3 times was when we had a special event scheduled for the meeting (specifically the SWAT team visiting), and 2 times was a MD coming in to teach First Aid. As for testing, I know the standard I was given, and in turn passed on to the guys I trained, was that I don't sign off anything until I know that if things hit the fan, the scout could do it without any problems. Whether it was first aid skills, pioneering skills, etc, you did not sign off until they had mastered the skills, and you could trust them to take care of you in the wilderness. As for getting Eagle at a young age, I know way to many young Eagles who leave as soon as they get it. Heck there is one troop I know of that doesn't have many 16 and 17 year olds because they are so focused on the scouts getting Eagle at 14 and 15 that they do not provide a program for the older ones. They just drop. And do I need to tell my "Tale of Two Eagles?" as Inigo Montoya said, "Let em explain, no there is too much. Let me sum up." Eagle 1 was pushed by dad, an Eagle and Exploring Silver recipient, and got Eagle at 13 and then dropped out. Eagle 2 was his cousin, and also pushed by his uncle to get Eagle ASAP. Eagle 2 was on track to get it at 14, but was side tracked by Brownsea 22, OA, Jambo, and a 64 mile canoeing expedition in the Canadian wilderness. I did get Eagle at 18 years, 1 month, and 6 days of age. No regrets getting it as I was having FUN! Also was a Sea Scout, OA officer, and a leader on both the unit and district levels by the time Eagle 1 got back involved in Scouting with his son. Eagle 1 has now learned about all the fun stuff he missed out on quitting at 13 through his son. He is not pushing son to get Eagle at 14.

I had an interesting conversation last nite with the wife and oldest on a topic very similar to this thread. I mentioned to wife and oldest about how I'm getting old and that oldest will be going to summer camp in 2 years. The dialogue between him and I went something like this. Oldest: So I can take Reading MB at summer camp? Me: OH heck no. No son of mine is taking a paper pushing merit badge at summer camp If I can help it.You can take those at any time. At summer camp, I want you to take First Aid, but other than that, I want you to take some of the fun ones like swimming, climbing, canoeing, sailing, wilderness survival... Oldest: What about Shotgun Shooting? Me; ...shotgun shooting. Hmm They may have an age requirement for that one, but I think you need to focus on the basics and get rifle shooting first, then move on to Shotgun. But yeah shotgun is OK with me if they let you. Life is good.

While I have not found the the term MASTERY OF (fill in the blank) SKILL(S) in the current BSHB for other skills, mastering First Aid skills IS specifically mentioned in the current BSHB. And while we cannot take away a badge once awarded, it is our duty as leaders to make sure he DOES know those skills he was suppose to know, as the GTA states the badge represents "WHAT HE IS CAPABLE OF DOING AND NOT WHAT HE HAS DONE" (caps for emphasis). In the situation Beavah described, if the scout could not remember the skill, his dad would have died. Think about if this was on a scouting function? Scouts depend upon one another, and if the scouts don't know the skills they are suppose to know, they fail, and their failure can kill someone. If scouts don't know skills, we as leaders need to work with the PLC to get a program going that allows those skills to be retaught and mastered.

BUCKETS?!?!?!?!?!?! PLUNGER?!?!?!?!?!!??!?! WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BUCKET AND PLUNGER! Gotta try the "Brownsea Washing Machine." Go inot the shower with all your dirties on, lather and scrub, remove once clean, and repeat on the next layer.

2Cub, I'm still on the pack level. I know there was some talk about me being SM when oldest becomes a Boy Scout, but it cannot happen b/c of youngest. He'll be joining as a Tiger 6 months after oldest is a Boy Scout. Thankfully the troop found another to be SM. Besides, I don't think the parents and committee would like me as SM. They thought the old SM was too hard on the scouts, having too high exceptions and letting them "fail" with certain activities and events. And I am the one who trained him.

While I admit i do see a need for the "paperpushing MBs," i.e. the Citizenships, Personal Management, etc... (on soapbox screaming at the top of my lungs) SUMMER CAMP IS NOT THE PLACE FOR THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (off soapbox and ready for rational discussion ) "SCOUTING IS OUTING!" as Green Bar bill Said, and summer camp is the place for the FUN MBs, climbing, swimming, canoeing, wilderness survival, etc, and some of the difficult to do otherwise outdoor ones,i.e. environmental science, forestry, etc. One thing I really liked about the 2 British camps I worked at, the camps provided program resources and opportunities, not classes. Troops created their own program and schedule. And if that included the SM taking his PLC out to the annual steak dinner to celebrate another good year, well that's all fine and dandy.

With all due respect to the volunteers at meritbadge.org, but they are incorrect. This has come up in the past and I provided links to show that, YES, Tigers joining in June can earn the Summertime Pack Award pin. They get the orange border one. Once they become Wolves on June 1 the following year, they can get the red bordered one. etc etc. Also remember the REQUIRED requirements for the CS Outdoor Activity Award for is that Tigers attend a Cub Scout Day Camp, since they cannot attend Resident camp per national standards. I know a lot of packs use day camp as one of their 3 summertime activities. Also one of the three optional requirements for Ti8gers to earn the CS Outdoor Activity Award is earn the Sumemrtime Pack award. And since most of those are in the summer, they have to be active during the summer BEFORE they get their Tiger badge. Hope it helps.

B, Please note what I said "And as I see it, depending upon the situation, (emphasis asdded) asking a S-L-E to do a T-2-1 skill would not be a retesting, but an expectation per the GTA." Now obviously you cannot ask a scout to tie a bowline at a BOR b/c that would be retesting. But having a S-L-E Scout teach bowlines to new scouts would be an expectation, not retesting. It would also show mastery since he is teaching the skill, which GTA does give as a method of learning skills. Or Having that S-L-E Scout taking the painter of his canoe and tying a bowline so that you can dock would be an expectation, not a retesting. Or having the S-L-E Scout tie a bowline in order to use for a 2 person swimming recue would be an expectation, not a retesting. Mastery of the skill is being able to use it, and use it whenever needed. Not "one and done." Now in regards to GBB and BORs, remember the BSA corrupted BP's vision of what a CoH was. BP stated it was the troop's PLs who ran things and reviewed Scouts, while the BSA said it was adults adults doing testing. As I see it, GBB created the term "BoR" to rectify the improper use of the term CoH the BSA was using. Now in regards to "master skills" in current BSA literature, my copy of the 11th ed, 9th printing BSHB, printed while William Cronk was President and Mazzucca was CSE so iw was released in the past 5 years, (EDITED, MAzzuca became CSE in Sept. 2007, so the book at the earliest would have been printed in 2008., so my copy is no older than 4 years.) states on page 14 "Of greater value is what badge represents. The skills you master, the wisdom you gain, and the experiences you enjoy are what really count." And I may be wrong about the current BSHB not emphasizing 'mastery of skills." I decided to do a quick review of the 12 ed. BSHB and found this on page 43. "Mastering first-aid (sic) skills of Scoutcraft will help you manage risk and act effectively during an emergency." Ok gotta go, more later. (This message has been edited by Eagle92)

JB, The MoP logo is an international one, and one that has its origins in the 2007 WSJ, if not earlier.

One of the challenges as I see it, is that standards of record keeping, action etc. have changed over time since these records were started in the 1920s. And folks will apply 2012 rules and regs to 1980 situations.

Agree with Short, when you can't carry to work, or in the case of the Scouts to school, it loses second nature. I had one of my coworkers a little upset with me 'cause I didn't have a pocket knife on me as I keep two in the car. BUT there are cases where scouts have been suspended and/or expelled for having wood tools secured in their cars.

Actually teh GTA states that the bade represents what the scout is capable of doing, not what he has done. So in essences an Eagle Scout should be capable of doing the T-2-1-S-L-E requirements since in order to wear the Eagle badge, he had to do the entire progression. And as I see it, depending upon the situation, asking a S-L-E to do a T-2-1 skill would not be a retesting, but an expectation per the GTA.

Eng, Grant you my expereince in Youth Protection (YP) cases is very limited, and I've only seen direct police involvement one time (and this was in the UK with an off duty police officer serving on staff dealing with the situation as soon as we knew what was going on), but I have been told police were involved in the YP issues I have reported or knew about. In one case, the adult punching the scout, it was determined to be self defense as there was a bunch of witnesses seeing the youth attack the ASM. No arrests and leader still around as far as I know as it has been a few years In another case, there was not enough evidence to convict the person accused as it was a he said-she said situation. But the leader was removed from scouting none-the-less. Protection of youth was paramount and the accusation was enough for the SE to remove the volunteer. Sad thing is, the youth was a known liar, pulling a similar stunt a year earlier, and the volunteer was one of those outstanding volunteers you hate to lose. But despite the reputation of the youth as a liar to protect his own skin, the leader was dismissed. I do not know what happened in regards to the third case as I left BSA employ before it was finalized. I do know leader left camp no longer a member of the BSA, reports were filed, and police were involved. I think with the opening of the records things will get worse in regards to YP. Yes volunteers are suppose to report every single accusation. But I'll be honest, it IS hard decision to make, a very hard one. Makes it harder when the accused leader is a friend in your own unit. But with the privacy of the files, it does make it easier for someone to report because you do not worry about false accusations and the possibility of defamation of character charges against you. I now see folks worrying about the possibility of defamation lawsuits if the accusations are wrong and the records are public. With the files now open I see lawsuits not only from victims, but also from folks who were removed from scouting because of accusations. No matter how quiet BSA is about removing leaders because of accusations only, word does get around. And I bet some enterprising lawyers can see it as a gold mine for defamation lawsuits as well.

Bnelon, Good review and interesting history lesson. One thing to remember is that BSA did diverge a lot from BP's vision. And as I mentioned, BP was in favor of the boys doing all the the work. In regards to advancement requirements, one thing to remember, the BSHB stated that the scouts were expected to "master the skills" when describing how a scout advances. That was the standard, mastery of the skill.

Interesting as I didn't know that. That said, i am now back not only from work, but also from a flag retirement ceremony held in conjunction with the American Legion. Boys had a good time, especially withthe hot dogs after the ceremony.

Fish, FYI, they replace the Tiger Cub patch, not the Bobcat, with the Webelos Badge. A little history Orignally Tigers didn't earn beads or badges, but iron on decals in the shape of paw prints with cut outs in them. MAJOR P.I.T.B. (emphasis) as if you did not iron them on exactly right the paw print was screwed up. Remember getting selling a lot of Tiger t-shirts and paws in 1996-97. Then they came out with solid paw prints which were not popular. At the end of the program, they became Cub Scouts and and originaly got a square "Tiger Cub Graduate" temp patch, then a "Tiger Cub Graduate" strip to go under the right pocket. After the paw prints, they moved up to a belt totem with beads. Tiger Cub Badge was created, but was a sticker, and was worn on the belt totem. This was approx 1998-2001 time frame. Around 2002, Tigers offically became Cubs, had to Bobcat before getting Tiger, wore the full blue uniform, and the Tiger Cub rank was worn on the pocket. Problem was where to put it? Someone thought, ' Hey most Webelos wear the Boy Socut uniform, why not create a Webelos badge that looks like an oval Boy Scout one. And Bob's your uncle, the Tiger Cub Badge replaced the Webelos Badge in the diamond. BBBBBUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT Old fogeys like me, who know the ones who complain enough to get knee socks brought back , said ' Well what abotut those still in blue uniforms?" so now we have all the options.