Eagle92

Oak, I think I can see why there was a difference. In my troop, when you visited, you usually were assigned to specific scout to work with that nite. Hence you were in his patrol. When Webelos dens visited, we would split them up amongst the patrols and assign scouts to work with them for the meeting, and the "wilderness survival weekend" we would do with them as our recruiting gimmick. So again you were working with a patrol. Reason we split them up was not to separate friends and what not, but to make sure everyone had someone to work with. we really used the mentor concept. When they joined the troop, they would decide to join the patrol they worked with.

While some folks may not be interested in ceremonies, dancing, and singing, others are. and that's good because the OA does indeed have so much more to offer than AIA stuff. NLS, cheerful service at camps, camp promos, Arrowcorps, Summit Corps, etc. But I've helped restart two lodges' AIA programs, and help start a new chapter's AIA program. So I know there is some interest out there. As for anthropologists, historians, archeologists, etc, how do you know they aren't? The 1994 National Old Style Dance champion, sorry I can't think of his name, last I talked to him was working on his PhD in anthropology, all because of his involvement in the OA. One guy I worked with was a dancer as a youth,and that help spark his interest in archeology. While working on his masters' he had a dream job. He was teaching Archeology MB at summer camp, and getting some college credits at the same time, because he was some work on a site that the university wanted to work at, but couldn't get access to until after the camping season. can we say "WINNER" And while I admit I am a Cold War historian because of my thesis, my original goal was to specialize in US Colonial History, with an emphasis in Native American-European relations. Did some preliminary research for a thesis in the topic, but had to abandon that course when a prof died, and the colonial prof assumed his admin job, cutting her classroom time. And can you guess where I got my interest in that era from?

Oh almost forgot A)Only differnce between the Heartsaver CPR and BLS is 1) no pulse check for heartsaver 2) Advanced airways are in the book, and 3) two man CPR is taught. B) Some background on Adult Compression Only CPR. Every 5 years, there is an international conference on CPR where research is examined, reviewed, new procedures come out etc. That's why in 2011 all the new stuff came out: their was a conference in 2010. Now back in 2005, it was my understanding that some Norwegians were doing studies on something their 911 folks were doing: telling folks how to do CPR over the phone without breaths. As 'Skip mentioned, a lot of folks balk at the idea of mouth-to-mouth on someone they don't know. So folks were doing just compression. Now the studies were not ready for the 2005 conference, so ADULT Compression Only CPR did come about. BUT in 2007, or possibly 2008, the result were published and it was found that compression only CPR can indeed save lives, and is better than doing nothing. These results were deemed so important, that AHA created an addendum that was added to their already printed CPR books about ADULT Compression Only between revisions. But please, please, PLEASE (caps for begging) remember that breath ARE needed for infant/child CPR, even if you have to give them mouth-to-mouth and mouth-to-mouth and Nose CPR. It's more likely to be a respiratory issue than a cardiac one, hence the reason for still doing breaths without a barrier for kids. 'Skip, BHF has you doing breaths first for infants and child still? On this side of the pond, it's been been simplified to Compressions, Airway, Breathing (CAB) for everything.

Ok back and have a bit of time. Bit of irony, I need to go to bed early 'cause I have to go to work early and set up for... Basic Life Support Class. OK, here's the AHA deal. there are three types of courses: Community, WorkPLACE, and healthcare provider. COMMUNITY HAS 3 types of classes and does not give you a certification. It's basically for those who just want to know CPR. I hate to say this, but although I can teach it, I haven't and haven't even looked at the new course books. Again no cards are issued, and I do not know if testing is involved. First type is Family & Friends CPR and it covers Compression CPR, Adult CPR and Infant/Child CPR, and AED use. Again it short, sweet, and too the point. Second is the Infant CPR Anytime and as the name suggests, it deals with only infants. SO COMPRESSION ONLY CPR IS NOT AN OPTION! ( again all caps and bold are emphasis, not shouting). Last is Family & Friends CPR Anytime , and it teaches ADULT Compression only CPR, Child CPR, choking, and AED use. If scouts needed an intro to CPR. The Friends and Family CPR is one I'd recommend since it covers most situations. Me personally I would not do the community stuff because A)I do not have easy access to the materials and B) one of the WORKPLACE ones is a better for for Scouts IMHO. Now WORKPLACE has 5 courses: Heartsaver CPR AED, Heartsaver First Aid, Heartsaver First Aid CPR AED, Heartsaver Pediatric First Aid, and Heartsaver Blood Born Pathogens. These courses provide certification and if memory serves a written and skill test is required. Sorry I only teach 2 of these classes a year, and both classes are in the same week. Next time I teach one of these will be next week, so it has been a while. AN ASIDE: if anyoneis going for BSA LIfeguard, NONE OF THESE CLASSES COUNT as BSA Lifeguards need the Health Care Provider level courses. (again emphasis0. Heartsaver CPR AED, covers adult and infant child CPR and AED use. It goes over ADULT Compression Only CPR, standard 30 compression : 2 Breaths Adult CPR, and 30:2 Infant/Child CPR. While it does provide certification, again it does not count towards BSA Lifeguard. Heartsaver First Aid only covers first aid situations, no CPR/AED Use. And if memory serves, it also handles pediatric emergencies. Heartsaver First Aid CPR AED combines the two courses above. THIS IS THE COURSE THAT I RECOMMEND FOR SCOUTS (emphasis) as it essentially covers First Aid MB requirements. HOWEVER me as a First Aid MBC and NOT as an AHA Instructor, I would spend a lot more time, probably double to triple depending upon group size, the amount of time that this course requires so that the scouts have a lot more hands on expereince than the course calls for. The last two Heartsaver Pediatric First Aid, and Heartsaver Blood Born Pathogens are ones I don't teach so I really don't know much about. Lastly is the Healthcare Provider set of which I teach Basic Life Support. THIS IS THE CPR CLASS BSA LIFEGUARDS NEED TO GET AND MAINTAIN LIFEGUARD CERTIFICATION!!!!! ( emphasis again) This is where it gets kinda interesting. The Book covers the following: ADULT Compression Only CPR One Man Adult CPR with pulse check One Man Adult CPR with Advance Airway with pulse check One Man Child CPR with pulse check One Man Infant CPR with pulse check Two Man Adult CPR with Ambu bag with pulse check Two man Child CPR with pulse check Two Man Infant CPR with pulse check AED Use What goes on in the class and is emphasized is the following though: One Man Adult CPR with pulse check One Man Child CPR with pulse check One Man Infant CPR with pulse check Two Man Adult CPR with Ambu bag with pulse check Two man Child CPR with pulse check Two Man Infant CPR with pulse check AED use Hopefully this helps clarify why AHA has so many "differnt" ways of doing CPR. It's based upon the course you take.

Ok a few quick comments. And all caps and bolds are emphasis 1) Full fledged CPR with 30 compressions to 2 breaths IS the preferred method. 2) IF you do not have a barrier/mask to do CPR, AND you are uncomfortable doing mouth to mouth on the victim AND it is an adult, Compression Only CPR is better than nothing. HOWEVER if it is a YOUTH, you need to do mouth to mouth as it is more likely respiratory and not cardiac. WHAT IS INTERESTING is that some of the research showed that for drownings you still want to do the old 15:2 compression to breaths ratio AND do mouth to mouth no matter what. BUT currently that is not taught. Maybe next time. More later.

May I interject ? I'm a current AHA Basic Life Support Instructor, so I teach both the healthcare pro version, Basic Life Support,, and the non- healthcare pro versions. I say non-healthcare pro versions because there are several version of CPR and there are differences. And that is where the confusion is coming from. I can't go into details now, but I'll post more tonite. But suffice to say depending upon what type of instruction and certification, depends upon the number of compressions, breaths, and how to go about it. Trust me you, if think it's hard keeping the new procedures straight for your cert, try having to know ALL the different variations of CPR for the different specialties. Two things to remember: CIRCULATION, AIRWAYS, BREATHING and 30 COMPRESSIONS TO 2 BREATHS FOR 1 MAN CPR! More later.

I'm going to be a bit more pessimistic, so please just bear with me. I've seen how rumors can start, and how accusations of "giving your son the MB" can arise. Especially if it has actually happened in your district, i.e. granddad and dad being MBCs for all the MBs a scout earned (Please do not get me started on that situation, I beg of you ) Unless I'm the only one qualified, I would avoid being an MBC for my kids. If I had to, I would want it to be in a group setting and giving all the scouts equal opportunity. So I would agree with all the others, get your son to invite the other scout.

Benelon, Back in the day, I do not remember having to come up with your own handouts for doing basic outdoor skill portion of SMF training. Now some of the specialty stuff, i.e. dutch oven and oven box cooking, yes I did get a handout. But the T-2-1 skills were in the handbook. Now they are not. that's why I asked. And THANK YOU (and yes I'm screaming at the top of my lungs ) for sharing the link. FYI here's one I used http://www.bsatroop780.org/skills/AllSkills.html

BSA24, You will find as many opinions of the OA in the Native American community as there are individuals. I dance and frequented POWWOWS.COM which is an excellent resource for those interested in dance and singing. And there are folks on both sides, pro OA and anti-OA on there. I admit I hate seeing the fake "Hollywood" Indians. And when I was more involved in OA and NA affairs, I pushed and pushed and pushed the concept of doing research and doing it right. Is it harder and more expensive, absolutely. But I've found that if you are willing to do it right, and in a respectful manner, folks in the NA community will support you. Again look at some of my previous posts on this topic in other threads, and for every instance of an Anti-OA comment by a Native, I can show you a Pro-OA one. Beside the story of Lumbee singer who is now our AIA adviser for the lodge, a singer with group which I discovered was started on the porch of the scout camp's dining hall if my memory of our conversation are correct, I have another, recent one. I taught an Indian Lore MB class at a MBU (I know, I know but let's discuss MBUs on another thread ), and one of the adults that sat in was Lakota, I was thinking "OH Crud how is this going to work out," but stuck to the game plan except for one thing: when things related to the Lakota came up, I referred to her about it, and sometimes a good discussion came about, one time it was a personal, religious matter, and was dropped. After the class was over, she came over, thanked me and gave a lot of positive feedback. She was asked to be an Indian Lore MBC, and since her son was attending the MBU wanted to sit in and see how it's done. She had concerns b/c she had read some negative stuff about the Boy Scouts, IL MB, and OA. But she wanted first hand experience before getting an opinion of her own.

JB, Again I must disagree. Yes 99.99999% of the things I learned in JROTC and when I first started teaching in 1995 are the same, one thing that did change was how to carry the arrows. Again very, very minor. Question in regards to NRA certs, do you have to do continuing ed, for lack of a better term, to keep your certification? I know with CPR instructor training, I have to teach so many classes in a 2 year period and do an Instructor review session every 2 years if memory serves. And of course, when they change CPR every 5 fives, mandatory training session in the new procedures. I never did a review session when my 2 years was up b/c I did the mandatory training on new procedures in stead. Also with another cert I have, I have to do x number of hours teaching over a year, and go through either an instructor recert, or take an advance instructor class, every 4 years.

I don't like it one bit, but I don't see how anything can be done at this point in regards to the scout. Now the DL is a different story. Sounds like the Cub is in the same boat as middle son, i.e. late birthdays. As muchas I hated for my son to wait a year to join cubs, that's the rule, there is a very good reason for it, and I'm following it. That said,I was put into a similar situation. I discovered that the two "twins" in my den were not actual twins but two years apart when I started doing internet advancement earlier this year. Long story short, the CM at the time allowed them to join as Tigers, putting the oldest who should have been a Wolf in a den with little brother who should not have been in Cub Scouts. It was 2.5 years into the program. As to why didn't the scouts mention not seeing him in school, etc, I know in my neck of the woods, the pack recruits from multiple schools. So some folks only see each other at scouts.

Yep I've seen more emphasis, a heck of a lot more, placed on being Eagle than when I was a yute. Another factor I'm willing to bet on is the "one and done" mentality of rank advancement instead of the mastery of skills mentality. Kinda sad when an Eagle can't tie knots, or talk to you about various things he did to earn merit badges and rank. Also sad when literature from national promotes this idea of "one and done" in its training materials fro training new adults. I am speaking specifically of the IOLS syllabus that says to have the participants get signed off on the outdoor skills as they do them. Sorry a weekend of training does not make you an outdoorsman. Another factor is the use of appeals. I never heard of an appeal on a BOR's decision until after becoming an adult. Now it's common knowledge, and some of the cases I've heard and seen make you want to scratch your head as to "How did he win his appeal?"

I wouldn't have used the mom, she has more important responsibilities. But you did use her, and you have to accept her responsibilities as well, i.e. feeding the newborn. Yep it can be "disquieting" the first time you see it happen. Mine was at CS Leader Basic when a new leader with a baby started nursing during training. But what is interesting is this, did you know that up until WWII, when women started using child care and going to work in industry, breast feeding was the norm? The need for women in the workforce in the 1940s got formulas, and it picked up steamin the 50s ands 60s until formula became the norm. Now American Pediatric Association, at least I think that their name but it's the pediatricians' society in the US, is now pushing and promoting breast feeding to the point that hospitals are starting to no longer giving out diaper bags of formula and other goodies courtesy of the formula companies. Heck I discovered recently that some hospitals have lactation departments, and all the nurses do is counsel new moms.

As a former council and national employee, my expereince is the further up the food chain you are, the less idea of what is going on in the field. So the idea of getting folks in the field involved is a GREAT one, and there is historical precedent for it. If memory serves, several editions of the BSHB were "pre-published" for review and editing by folks in the field. As I stated, the higher up you go, the less involved and knowledgable about the field you are. My old SE and DFS didn't have a clue as to what was going on in units, and what unit leaders needed, unless they were directly affected by it, i.e. exec boards members asked for it or high level FOS donors still workings with units. When I worked for national supply, by boss had no clue, zero absolutely NO IDEA, what was involved in working at a summer camp. True story, one of my duties in the pilot program was to create a standard operating procedure manual for summer camp trading posts. Ok find and dandy, spend 2 months writing it it up for review. Boss had no clue, couldn't understand some of the things I was doing and why, and started asking one of my coworkers what they though about XYZ at camp since they had a son in Scouting. Coworker responded, " How the heck would I know, I've never been to camp before. Ask [Eagle92] he's the expert, he's worked at summer camp how many years?" Only after the second year of the pilot, when the boss was assigned Jambo duties, did they have any idea of what was up with summer camp trading posts. An Aside. if you got council level leaders getting involved when they can to keep a pulse on things, BE THANKFUL. Not many pros like that around.

Mike Rowe

I've met a lot of folks who had no problems with the OA. If you look up some older threads, I gave examples of folks who have helped Native Americans b/c of their involvement in the OA. On a different note, some OA lodges in the section think my lodge has an unfair advantage as one of the AIA advisers, he's now the primary one if I hear correctly, is Lumbee and one of our singers is with Eastern Bull.

In regards to the BP drawing, thankfully there was not G2SS at the time and all one needed was common sense. In regards to the current BSHB and fire building, it's not just that skill but a bunch of other ones as well. Kinda sad when you are conducting an IOLS weekend, and when you go to use the current BSHB, you find it so inadequate on outdoor skills, that you have to use online sources to "cut and paste" information to create your own outdoor skills booklet. That and go to your bookcase and start taking down old BSHBs and Fieldbooks that have the info. A few examples of missing info off the top of my head include sharpening axes and saws, lashings and projects you can build, what to look for in selecting a backpack and how to pack it, etc. It got to the point I was cutting and pasting BROWNSEA 22 and JLT activities and infomration into the IOLS booklet. An aside, and changing the topic a bit. BNELLON, have you too found the lack of info in the BSHB for IOLS too?

Lisa, That's one of the reasons why I like mixed age patrols and the ability for the scouts to decide which patrol they go into every six months. In my expereince, most people stayed with the same mixed-aged patrol until A) we needed to create another patrol B) they quit, or C) The got selected to be in the Leadership Corps and held a troop level POR.

Growing up, my troop met every week except for 2 weeks during Christmas (and we might be doing Winter Camp depending upon the year), Good Friday, and the week we were at summer camp. Oh and the odd Friday that were were having a 3 day campout, otherwise every friday. Now Summer meetings tended to be longer, 1.5 to 2 hours. More sunlight, more time to have fun, and NO HOMEWORK! But for whatever reason, it seems most troops around here stop during the summer like the CS packs.

They discontinued the program last year. So no more patches. Also I think BSA discontinued the certificates last year as well since I ordered them and they did not show up. I made my own certificates with a color printer and resume paper.

Wrong group to ask. You need to ask the youth. With no disrespect intended, I've been in your shoes once and know some of the problems you are facing, But have you gone through adult leader training yet? That should help some. Also I recommend getting a copy of the 3rd Ed. SM handbook, both volumes. While it's a little dated, it is a superb resource. Also have you "unlearned" as Yoda would say ? I know one of the toughest challenges I faced, and seen others face as GASers (Gray Area Scouters, i.e. 18-20) was learning to step back and let the youth do things. Kinda hard when you spend how many years as a PL, ASPL SPL etc. taking charge only to have to sit int he chair and drink your coffee once ya turn 18.

BSA, Must respectfully disagree with ya, Do some research on the history of the OA and how involved Native Americans were in the early years and you may be surprised, very surprised at their involvement and support of the OA. And you will discover Why they were so involved. Now I admit I don't like the spaghetti Western Indians either. I prefer folks to do their homework and make regalia that is factual and specific. But that is both the historian and dancer in me. In regards to blond haired,blue eyed Natives Americans, they do exist. Gotta remember that there was intermarriage going on, as well as assimilation of Native Americans into European American culture. Also gotta remember that for some nations,, the mother's tribal identity is passed down to the child. So if mom is Lakota, mixed blood son is Lakota.

Bnelon, Give me some time to find the quote. I got a lot of stuff to review. Looks like I may need to go to my BSA archive DVD and search on that. Now in regards to the pioneering skills, the older scouts should be teaching the younger ones, so yes I would expect them to know it. BBBBBUUUUUTTTTTTT National now has a policy prohibiting pioneering projects over 5 feet in height. So in some respects I blame national and their stupid rules on lack of proficiency in pioneering. Yep catapults and ballistas are fun. But ebven more fun is bulding pioneering towers and bosun's chairs. Do... Not... Get... Me... Started!

I have to agree with the Beav on this one. yes there are some national standards, but a COR can modify the scouting program, or not even use elements of the program Best example the LDS church. They integrated the BSA program into their church ministry at an early date, and have not changed their application of the Scouting program in their ministry as BSA has changed the program, i.e. LDS pack is stillon the old 3 year program of 3rd grade is Wolves, 4th is Bears, and 5th is Webelos, 11 year old, while officially Boy Scouts, do not have anything to do with the troop until age 12 becasue that was the age requirement when LDS began using Scouting, etc. Sea Scouts is another example. Once upon a time, Sea Scouts was very regimented, but then that changes and you had ships that didn't do any of the traditional program. That becasme so wide spread that A) Sea Scouts came out with alternative to traditional rank and B) led to the widespread use of "Piratical costumes" for uniforms with multiple uniforms being seen at multi-ship events. Venturing, when I was trained on stating new crews when the program came out in 1998, had as one of the features that COs could use the program, or take elements of it that they wanted to use. The key with COs is that any elements they choose to use, they have to follow national standards. So if a CO just want to use the outdoor elements and not advancement, that's OK by national.

Sometimes it's just hard to let go, especially if there is an emotional attachment. One of the troops I started while I was away started having problems. if I had been around, I probably would have done my best to not let it fold. But by the time I came back, the unit was too far gone, and I couldn't do a thing to help. That would eb an example of emotional attachment. Sometimes it's a sense of responsibility. I started a pack at my church, and the organization I was in was the CO. I fought tooth and nail to keep the pack going. I tried to get folks form the community involved, but faced discrimination for the second time in my life over the matter. And I even deliberately disobeyed orders from my boss to not get involved, which is kinda hard to do since I was on the charter as a committee member, trying to get it to work. Sometimes it's pure laziness. I had one COR who didn't want to have anything to do with the pack saying the parents need to deal with it. parent's were dealing with the problem by walking away. And the COR gets upset when the pack doesn't cross over any boy scouts for the troop he's an ASM with.