Eagle92

Love hand signals. Used them some with the den. Need to start using them more and without telling them what it means.

oh and my imitation silk necker and German silver slide.

It depends. Both offer advantages and disadvantages. If I do wear shorts, it's knee socks that go with them. Now for CSDC this year, definatley a pair of jeans,along with moccasin-type boots,woven garters and sash, late 1800s style shirt, choker, scalping knife, and a Boss of the Plains, AKA Smokey Bear.

Quaz, If I went overboard on that last post, I apologize. I did YMCA lifeguarding, and worked with a lot of ARC certified folks as well in college. Very few folks had heard of BSA Lifeguard, and when I took it it as the toughest course around. That was because in addition to pool/waterfront rescues, you also had to do the boating ones as well. I should have seen the writing on the wall when YMCA and ARC took out double drownings and rescues without equipment. Although rare, double drownings do happen (Luckily I was in the indoor pool when it happened.) And sometimes the unexpected happens and you need to make a rescue without equipment (last one I did 2 years ago and it freaked out lifeguards on duty because they were not taught that). Now there is a separate certification for boating rescues. Heck I remember when the prerequisities for BSA Lifeguard was already having Swimming, Lifesaving, Rowing, and Canoeing MBs. EDITED: So I don't like BSA emascualting the BSA Lifeguard program and requiring someone to get another certification.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

WOW. Someone at national doesn't know what they are doing. Or maybe it's someone at ARC since BSA removed their own stuff on waterfronts and boating a few years back, only keeping Safe Swim Defense, and has adopted ARC lifeguard. Heck I was told by the camp AD that anyone who goes through his course is dual certified. DON'T GET ME STARTED ON THE NEW BSA LIFEGUARD PROGRAM ( caps for begging ) As someone who was a lifeguard and lifeguard instructor for a number of years, the whistle is an invaluable tool that is used to get folks attentions. Yes there's a time and place for it's use ( i.e. lightening, or getting someone's attention after repeated attempts at yelling), but it is an invaluable tool.

WP, Like I said, no disrespect or criticism was intended. Traditions die hard, especially in Scouting. And most especially in the OA. If you search for backward OA sashes and protesting national's policy on honor borders of flaps, you can read how that tradition was handled by my lodge.

OK I'm back. Again I want to stress that this is is NOT to criticize Wahissa 118, as they do have an excellent program. Recap, there AIA program, singers and dancers, is OUTSTANDING. It's the ceremony teams that some challenges come up. Wahissa 118 has a very strong tradition among their ceremony teams going back a while. And Whitepine, please correct me on any of this if I am wrong as this is based upon conversations and my observations. The good news is that by having a strong tradition, they do have high standards and expectations of their members, particularly in the basics of doing ceremonies: memorization and gestures. Also they have a good sense of, for lack of a better word, theater in that the props they use, the regalia in use, sense of timing, etc really keeps folks attention. If you ever see one of their shows or ceremonies live, you will understand this. EDITED: the live shows I've seen in conjunction with conclave were very good. Here is where tradition sometimes hurts. Sometimes it is a challenge to change tradition. Sometimes it's the members who are resistant to change. And sometimes it's the audience that doesn't want the change. Yes I admit I cringed when the guy in a breechclout got in the water, swam, and little fires. But I'm willing to bet that is something that is expected form the audiences, and if it wasn't done audience members may be ticked. But I do not know as that is something Whitepine can tell us more about. EDITED: this is probably a tradition, and hence hard to change. I will say this in Wahissa's defense. When I went to the Qualla Reservation about 4 years ago, I watched UNTO THESE HILLS, the outdoor drama about the Cherokee, the Trail of Tears, and and the creation of the Qualla reservation, and I was surprised at the costuming for the show, especially after visiting the Oconaluftee Indian Village, EDITED: WHICH IS AWEOMSE ( caps for emphasis. I HIGHLY recommedn seeing the village if you go tot Qualla). The "Eagle Dance" of the show not only was different form the Eagle Dance I've seen, but also the costuming was just like the guy going into lake in the video BSA24 linked to. And there was a bit of "Hollywood Indian" costuming at times in the show. And again this show is put on by the Cherokee on their own reservation! When I asked someone about it, I got an interesting look and smile, and was told, "that's for the tourists," or words to that affect.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

With all due respect to Wahissa 118, they are a challenge. I'm in the same section as them, and when I was really active in the OA, they helped me out. There AIA program, dancers and singers, is really top notch. They do go on the Powwow circuit, do have singers with Native American drum groups, etc. Whenever I've been to a powwow with them, there have been no problems, in fact they have been welcomed with open arms. There AIA folks are doing things right in my opinion, and are a model for other lodges to follow in regards to AIA. The challenge comes with their ceremony teams. More on that later somehting came up

The printing of two versions started in the late 1990s, early 2000s. If memory serves, the reason was that the education consultants think it's better to do it that way to keep everyone reading, hence promoting literacy. I'm kinda old school, so I wish there was only one version for all. Also I think having one version, while not helping the older scouts out much, would help the younger ones with reading comprehension. I know my 6 yo middle son got hooked on reading after seeing older brother enjoy books and magazines and started reading on his own at 5. He's now going into 1st grade, but reading some of his brother's 4th and 5th grade level books.

Bnelon, I'm referring to the complete national bylawas and regulations,as well as the fill-in-the-blank copy of the council by-laws books. These two items are the ones all national and council policies are to follow. I have copies of them somewhere. All, Anyone wants a copy of the BROWNSEA 22 syllbaus, I have an annotated version.

Qu, Remember to take HEALTHCARE PROVIDER LEVEL CPR (emphasis)from an accredited agency for BSA Lifeguard. Don't know much about ARC, but they have different levels of CPR training too.

Now I do admit this concept may seem contrary to the SM being responsible for leadership training of the troop, but if you think about it it is a great resource. When I did Troop level leader training, it was an all day event done by the district. All the troops did have adults present, but only a few taught any of the classes as they were tauht by the SPLs and older scouts of the various troops. All of the youth instructors were BROWNSEA 22 participants, and the few adults were WBs. Not only were the courses taught per the book, ideas were exchanged for activities and dealing with problems. And friendships were made.

I hate to say it, but I know for a fact that inflated membership numbers is a reason for the membership decline. Heck I'm willing to bet that probably the #1 reason for overall decline. As for the CS program, it's too long at 5 years, burning out both parents and scouts, and IS complicated. That is self evident when you are doing online advancement and can record the Sports and Academics Belt Loops, which is officially NOT advancement and hence restricted, BUT you can not record the Academic and Sports Pins. I think some of the "uniformed Mexican Generals" that flks complain about wearing all sort of dodads and gegaws come out it. Heck it was promoted at the CS RT training I went through.

I know this discussion comes up regularly, and I wish I had just saved my original posts so that I could just cut in past I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so I will just sum up. When the OA was founded in 1915, most Native Americans were not US citizens, were forbidden to practice their religion and culture, and their youth were sent to Indian boarding schools by the US government where they were beaten if they spoke their language, and forced to adopt Anglo culture. And some of this lasted until WWII. (An aside: did you know that various CODE TALKER recruits went though an accelerated boot camp because the boarding schools they had attended taught a lot of what boot camp did and they were ahead by several weeks in some things.) While some nations went underground in their customs and traditions, all assimilated to some degree into Anglo culture. Some nations lost their native speakers, lost the last members of their various societies, etc. A lot of Native American culture was lost. Now some Native Americans saw the OA as a way to help keep some elements, not everything but some, of their culture alive in this dark time. There was support for the OA in the Native American community and you had a variety of tribal leaders helping out. And in one case I mentioned in oe fo those threads, Arrowmen have returned the favor. Arrowmen have worked with the native community to help them restore lost traditional skills, help do research for their petition for federal recognition, etc. Now is every single ceremonialist and dancer 100% spot on. Unfortunately no. Sometimes "the Hollywood Indian" image is so prevalent, even folks who should know better continue it as it is expected. I know I've been questioned a time or two by folks when I wore my Straight Dance regalia at scouting events. Also some advisers get so stuck on reliving their youth, that they just keeping what they've been doing. They forget that Native American culture is alive and changing still. Heck stuff I wore a few years back would not be "fashionable" today.

I actually contacted someone from national, and here's why it takes time if memory serves. 1) new changes come out from the conference in October 2010 by the various publications like CIRCULATION and HEART. 2) On the CPR side of things, AHA comes up with the procedures to be used in the USA that other orgs use. ARC actually does not do CPR regs, they do the First Aid ones. 3) Anywhere from April 2011 to December 2011, depending upon what type of CPR or advanced CPR you are doing, the new books, courses, etc come out. for example BLS came out in April 2011, but the Neonatal Resuscitation (an advanced course) came out in Nov/Dec 2011. 4) Once the new policies and procedures are wrote up by the parent org, BSA works with ARC in this matter, then ARC starts working on upgrading the BSA's program. 5) once the new BSA program is created, it takes time to get the info out. I think that's one reason why BSA now wants certified instructors as MBCs now for first aid.

Bnelon, There is a BIG difference between having a program that teaches T-2-1 skills over the year, and a scout earning rank. Scouts have to attend and participate in order to learn the skills. It can be challenging for some who leave for sports and come back a few months later to catch up.

have your son talk to the MBC on it. Don;t have the current requirements in front of me, so I cannot confirm or deny EagleMom's post. i know the last time I taught, that wasn't the case, but it was a few years ago.

I know beaver can handle himself on his own, but I believe a good bit of what he does so I need to make a few comments 1) I know a lot of scouters, scouters who have been around 20, 30, 60 years like myself DO see low expectations of the scouts coming not only leaders in their units but national literature. Again the the old BSHBs wrote of mastery of Scoutcraft skills. I've found only 1 reference to mastering skills, specifically First Aid, in the current HB. Also when training literature states that, and I am paraphrasing here, :"Sign off the skills on their checklist as they do them just as you would a scout for his advancement" aslo undercuts the message that a scout needs to really know and be able to do the skills, not just one and done. And I've seen leaders who do not have any expectations that scouts can retain skills over time, let alone actually lead. Heck there are some posts on this site that it appears that the poster does not expect scout to remember stuff. If that is not low expectations, then I do not know what is. 2)In regards to slighting FCFY, some of us have been around when it was still called "Operation First Class" and read all the reports on why they created the program, i.e. membership retention. I was a Scout in 1989 when it came out, and even I commented that the stats used to promote the program only looked at two items: membership stats and advancement stats. They didn't look at the entire picture, and that is PROGRAM (emph). If a unit has an active program, the kids will want to do the program, you do the program, and as BP stated "advancement will come a naturally as a suntan...." One of the problems I see it is that by focusing on getting to FC in a year, it is encouraging the One and Done mentality. I have seen a lot of Scouts recently who do not have the same level of skills that I and my peers had. Best, or worse depending upon your view, example I can give is the firebuilding event at a camporee a few years back. Out of all the patrols competing, only one, yep 1 (emph), could actually build a fire, and light it. And the patrols that could not build and start a fire included a venture patrol that went to Philmont that summer! It got so bad that the judges,after waiting about 5-10 minutes for a NSP that went though the First Year Camper program at summer camp just freezing and doing nothing, decided that they needed to show the NSP how to make tinder, kindling, and fuel and build a fire. And it is affecting other areas as well. Last time I was an elangomat at an Order of the Arrow Ordeal, you know a group that started out as an honor camper society and has camping requirements, NONE of the candidates, both youth and adult, were prepared for wet weather among other things. We had to issue garbage bags to waterproof their gear and make impromptu ponchos. And the comment I heard from one leader about wet weather gear and the other stuff that one normally brings camping was, "We were not told what to bring other than...." And I hate to say it, but as Bnelon even stated, the current BSHB doesn't contain all the information that one really needs to go camping like it use to. that's why both of us had to create handouts for basic outdoor skills when teaching IOLS. So we do see evidence that the focus of FCFY is damaging the program. 3)In regards to "Mocking the experience of the BSA team as disconnected," again I hate to say it, but it is true. The higher up you go in Scouting, the less time you spend in the field. Less time you spend in the field, the less you know what is really going on. Again I worked as a DE and for national supply. When the National Director for Venturing comes into your training, tells a group of about 30 Eagle Scouts, WBers, former vols turned pro, etc that "The Venturing Silver Award will replace Eagle as the BSA's top award," that is a major disconnect. When national comes out with rules like the ones that came out in April, i.e. Cubs can no longer use their little red waggons b/c they need to be 14+ according to the DOL rules that business and some adult volunteer organizations use, there is a MAJOR disconnect. And even at the council and lower national levels it's there. Again my national scout shop boss could not understand why I created the SOP manual for the summer camp trading post I was hired to run as part of a pilot program because the boss had no experience in summer camp operations. It was only after working jambo did the boss get an inkling of what is entailed. 4) Have you ever had to deal with food poisoning at camp? I have. At the JLT course I was SPL for, an entire patrol save one got sick and left midweek. Reason why the one remained, he saw how the others were preparing the food that night, tried to tell them they were doing things wrong and was ignored. He decided not to eat that night and it saved him. Proper handling of food IS NOT a joking matter. 5) As for "Pulling in ethereal quotes that just don't have squat to do with the discussion," I do not see that as the case on either side. I see both sides of quotes as relevant, but one side is also using tradition, history, and other resources that are harder to get (An aside Beavah do you know how hard it is to get a copy of the Rules and Bylaws that all the other stuff is suppose to be based on? I was a DE and didn't have a copy of them. Maybe that's one reason why there is some inconsistency?) 6) In regards to the comment"Focusing on the good times from way back in their past only to the remember that those times were being slighted too. (i.e. pre-1989 requirements reference is funny because it's the same people criticizing the 1970s scouting urbanization that according to them did such damage. It's pretty much the same requirements," I admit there does indeed appear to be a major disconnect on us 'old Fogeys." BUT there is one difference, or more specifically one man who made the difference, between the scouting program from 1972-1978 and 1979-1989: WILLIAM "GREEN BAR BILL" HILLCOURT! (OK this time caps are shouting, not in anger but in jubilation as GBB is DA MAN and I am so glad he saved Scouting.) While the requirements may appear similar,especially with the creation of Skill Awards in 1972, and Green Bar Bill's continued use of them in 1979, AND in fact the 1972 requirements may seem harder since MBs were required for T-2-1, The BIG difference is that from 1972-1979, and for sometime afterward if a scout Life prior to the switch over, it was theoretically possible for a scout to get eagle without ever going hiking or camping. I'll give a few comparisions In 1972, the 12 Skill Awards were introduced: Camping, Ciotizenship, Communications, Community Living,Conservation, Cooking, Environment, Family Living, First Aid, Hiking,Physical Fitness, and Swimming. 8 Skill Awards were required to the T-2-1 ranks of which only 1, Citizenship, was required for Tenderfoot. the other 7 were up to the scout. And in looking at the requirements, most could be done without ever being more the about 2 miles from home, and that included us city slicker . In 1979, 8 Skill awards were still required for T-2-1. But Citizenship, Hiking, First Aid, Camping, and Cooking were now required. Again Green Bar Bill wrote into the requirements traditional Scouting skills. Also what is not in the handbooks is also the stuff Green Bar Bill did to reintroduce traditional scouting skills via training, specifically his "All Out For Scouting" program to get both Scouts, specifically SPLs and those who could be SPL, and adult leaders up to snuff on their outdoor skills. Emb21 has a good description here http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=258277 In regards to Star, Life and Eagle, In 1972, Camping was not a required MB, and the other "outdoor oriented MBs, Swimming and Lifesaving did have other opitions. Camping returned in 1979, and the options remained. It wasn't until 1989 that Hiking MB and a few others if memory serves, became options as well. 7) As for 2 Cub's comment to 'Slow Down" it may be a very, valid point. I know I was under pressure from my uncle to get Eagle, and I can only imagine the pressure my cousin was under. As soon as my cousin got Eagle, he quit to pursue other interests. Now that is all and good, but he did miss out on a lot of fun. Where as I got "sidetracked" on advancement by having some fun: jambo, 50 miler, OA, etc. And I am beginning to see pressure on scouts to get Eagle more and more. When I first heard the "no license until Eagle" I thought it was hilarious as I was a Scout at the time. But over the years I am seeing it as a burden on the scouts, and some rebel over that. Best example was the Scout with 64 MBs and did everything but a service project for eagle. Why no project? He got fed up with his parents and deliveratly quit to tick them off.

TwoCub, Ladies and Gentlemen I want to apologize for my comment to Twocub as I realized when I reread the post just now, it sounded as if I was criticizing him and his troop. That was not my intent. I was trying to make a joke, and I forgot to include a smiley face to show that the comment was meant in a lighthearted manner. Especially since I though my comments prior to that showed support for his position. I know that is can be a challenged getting a new troop started as I will explain below. Again my intent was to try was to support how he is doing things by referring to the old time limits for the T-2-1 ranks. As I stated elsewhere, the removal of time limits for T-2-1 happened in 1989, and was a direct result of "Operation First Class" which is now called FCFY. And you know my thoughts on that. I also wanted to add how I think the Skill Award program helped focus new scouts attention. And I was referencing a problem that I am seeing with my CO's troop since the old SM stepped down, folks,in this case parent/committee members focusing on immediate awards like MBs over the scouts learnign and practicing basic skills at meetings, as well as the scouts running things. The new SM isn't doign his job, and the committee is taking over. And since they have not taken boy scout leader training and are former CS leaders, in the past 6 months since they crossed over, they have worked on 4 MBs. Basically it's turning into Webelos III, and that is what I am hearing from some of the older members of the troop. This greatly concern me b/c the troop is relatively new, 5 years old, and they have encountered a lot of leader challenges (they move to venturing or move ou the area), have has scouts who were on the cusp of taking over and doing things the patrol method, only to move away, get into sports, or have serious health issues and need to quit. They had JUST gotten to the point where the Scouts were running things completely, and the old SM felt comfortable stepping down, when it starts turning into Webelos III. Again I apologize if it seemed like I was attacking twocub as that was not my intent and I hope he is very successful in getting the troop up and running.

A few comments. In regards to language, a lot of the native languages are dying out, if not dead already. Assimilation is what did it. Best example I can think of is the French assimilating the Houma of Louisiana to the point that French became their principle language, not Houma. In fact one of the history books I have on them written by one of their council members is written in both French and English. If memory serves, Eastern Band Cherokee, in their attempt to keep Tsalgi alive, has made it mandatory in the reservation school system. And I believe the Lakota are using SCRABBLE as their attempt to keep their language alive. As to OA members getting involved in outside native American Culture, definitely seen that. I know and have been mentored by Arrowmen who have become members of native American tribal societies like the Ponca Hethuska. Heck I did research on one mentor who was invited to a tribal powwow in OK in the 1960s. Now OK is Southern Straight country, but at the time my mentor did Fancy Feather, and there were not many of them at the time. Guess whose picture made the front page of the local picture newspaper? I've met several gentlemen who were adopted, and I don't mean Lone Ranger- Tonto "Hollywood Adoption" either, into families. Heck one of them wrote an article on his adoption, and a disadvantage of the adoption: a girl he was interested is was now his cousin and no longer an option as a result the adoption

'23, If you PM me, I'll forward your contact info to some one who knows about the black robes of the early OA. He's one of the founders of OA Trail Crew at Philmont, a really big OA historian buff ( bigger than me if you can imagine) and if I remember correctly, he's the one who came up with the ceremony and ceremonial regalia the OA uses at Philmont for OA Trail Crew. Sorry I can't help any more than that. My chapter had, stressing had, black robes for Brotherhood Ceremonies between when I left the area and came back. They got the idea from one of the members who did Trail Crew, and he helped out with the info. BUT you may get some "challenges." There was one adult member who viewed the robes as quote "Satanic," and would not allow any of the scouts from his troop, and tried discourage scouts from his chapter, attend one of my chapter's Brotherhood Ceremonies. While that is funny, this next one is not. I was told that there was some scouts or leaders who saw the black robes, and somehow equated them the KKK. I think it was then that the chapter stopped using them. Now in regards to Cub Scouts not liking ceremonies, I've seen some ceremonies that kept them spell bound. Other, not so much. The key is how much practice the ceremony team has had. A good ceremony team will get, and keep their attention. While not ceremonies, it did involve the OA dancers. My den chief was a dancer, and as I still had some contacts with the dancers as well. So when we did the Indian Life electives as wolves, I had some dancers come out and perform at the den meeting. The other dens were so upset they missed it, that I had to schedule the dancers to come back and perform for the pack.

Choaman, In regards to this statement I'm an ASM and 22. Doesn't really qualify for "seasoned Scouter," but I'm posting anyway. I say at the top of my lungs: HORSEHOCKEY! One of the things that really ticked me off when I was a GASer was older leaders discounting my knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) due to my age. Sorry but let me get this straight, you just let me spend 7 years in an outdoor program where I mastered outdoor skills, and was given leadership responsibilities, etc etc, and now that I an 18, 19, 20 etc, I don't know what the heck I'm doing?!?!?!?!?!?! Sorry but you ARE a seasoned scouter. You do have the KSAs of a seasoned scouter, and heck I'd put you for a leadership role in a troop turning into Webelos III. Please do not discount yourself. OK off that soapbox onto another Now in regards to this quote Brotip: they see more as "one of us" than "one of them." In other words, they more likely associate you with youth than an old adult. You're too young to fit the stereotypical image of an old grouchy guy with coffee and a sleeping disorder. I speak from experience - it's a double-edged sword. all I can say, again at the top of my lungs.... RIGHT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok off that one now.

My old troop did not have a feeder pack for the 6 years I was with them. Our recruiting was word of mouth, friends not in Scouting already,transfers from outehr troops ( that was me)and of course Cubs visiting. So yes do not just limit yourself. Also my Ship did recruiting at the mall and within the CO. That helped too. And of all the Sea Scouts in the ship, there were only 3 of us that were Boy Scouts,or in my case an ASM.

BEST...... ADULT COMPRESSION ONLY CPR... VIDEO... EVER! (AND YES I'M SHOUTING) And yes that it Dr. Ken Jeong, MD in the video. The BLS version of CPR mentions hands only CPR in the book, but doesn't cover it in the class. So my department found this video and downloaded to go over the ADULT Compression Only CPR, as there seems to be a lot of confusion about it. I'm just glad the didn't use the other song with 100 beats per minute, Queen's Another One Bites the Dust.(This message has been edited by Eagle92)

Here are my thoughts. 1) I liked that back in the day, there was the Skill Awards program. All the different swimmming, camping, cooking, first aid, etc T-2-1 skills of today were combined into one award, and a scout could focus on one specific set of skills at a time instead of a bunch of skills. Maybe be if Skill Awards were still given out, scouts could actually learn the T-2-1 skills instead of you having their parents pushing the troop to teach 4 Eagle required MBs at meetings in the six months since they have joined the troop. But that is a different story. 2) I also like the time requirements at the T-2-1 level. With less emphasis on getting to First Class in 12 months, and more emphasis on scouts actually mastering the skills, the time requirements didn't force the issue of advancement as you had time to really learn the skills. Except for those scouts like my cousin who was pressured to get Eagle at 13. EDITED, 2Cub, Why do you have an ASM worrying about cooking instead of older scouts?(This message has been edited by Eagle92)