Eagle92

Must respectfully disagree with you on some things BSA24. While I have not been in the OA as long as you have, I have been in over 20 years, served as a youth officer in one lodge, chapter and/or committee adviser in 4 four lodges, and was a member in a 5th lodge. In my expereince every lodge is different. I'm sorry that the lodge you are in is only good for putting up and taking down for summer camp, doesn't do their homework when it comes to AIA, doesn't promote camping, and is only a social club now. But not every lodge is like yours. I have yet to see the "perfect lodge" as every lodge tends to focus on different things that I've been in. Some had really outstanding service work, not only putting up and setting up for summer camp and other activities, but also doing real valuable and meaningful work to keep the camps in operating order. Best example I can give is Croatan 117 and the tremendous amount of work we have done over the past year to fix the damage from the hurricane last fall. There is no way the camp would be able to operate without not only Croatan 117 members, but also members from the other lodges in our section trying to get the camp back in shape. Some do a stellar job in camp promotions and summer camp staffing. Putting together to notch videos and having a large percentage of the staff being Arrowman. Chilantakoba Lodge 397 is a good example. Look at their Camp V-Bar videos on Youtube. Also I know of lodges that contribute camperships to allow scouts to go to camp. I know my chapter alone has sent about 12 people to summer camp and Philmont over thepast 10 years, not to mention the thousands of dollars raised to get tools and equipment for our local scout camps. As for AIA, we've already had this discussion. Yes some lodges do not do their homework, but there are lodges that do. Now I do agree with you on the current election procedures. While I have seen it where most of the folks did not get in, and in one case after two ballots no one got elected, those elections are not the norm as they use to be. And I agree it hurts the Order.

Oh, I admit there were problems from the get go, starting off with the name Venturing and calling the units Crews, when the name Venture Crew was already in use as an older scout patrol in a troop, as well as the fact that Sea Scout Ships are divided into crews. Heck som of the preliminary artwork included the color maroon which was associated at the time with Venture Crews/Patrols. Still think the maroon loops would look better than the green on the Venturing uniform. Venturing was rushed out as a result of a lawsuit, although planning for it had started. So lots of challenges did occur. But dedicated volunteers worked out those kinks. But I do stand by my statement: "The confusion is coming from pros and high up volunteers at national who do not know and understand the Venturing program, but are trying to change Venturing." And here is why, a lot of the folks who got Venturing off the ground have either retired, i.e. Holmes, or have been sidelined by folks at national, i.e. Craig Murray et al. Don't know about today, but when I went though PDL-1, not a whole lot of time was spent on Exploring/Venturing. In fact there was a push for councils to have an Exploring Executive (EE) who focused solely on Exploring issues. I was advised by one SrEE NOT (emph not shouting) to become an EE as you get pigeon-holed and there are few advancement opportunities in specializing. So that topic wasn't really covered and to this day not many pros in the upper levels of council management, and if that is any indication national level too, are as familiar with Venturing. Some anecdotal evidence, when the Venturing shorts finally came out, I was told I was not in the proper uniform by a high level volunteer. Grant you this was 2 years after Venturing came out, but even last year I was wearing a Sea Scout uniform at a council meeting, and the SE had to ask about it and Sea Scouts, the second oldest program in Scouting and within Venturing today. From communications I read on various council websites, both my own and others, many equate Crews as coed troops for older kids. Also the entire "one size fits all" training spectrum is viewed by us in the field as the folks at national not understanding Venturing and its needs. Also if I read correctly, BSA has hired outside consultants to coordinate some of this training updates. Consultants may know their stuff, but they may not know BSA program as well as those of us in the field. Grant you the training folks are listening to us in the field, as evidenced by the rescinding of long term trained volunteers having to redo training every time the course title is changed in order to be considered "trained," but it took a howl of protest to do so. Unfortunately the higher up you go in any organization, the less interaction you have in the field with the grunts doing the work. Now getting back to the original post, I am against this One Oath Initiative. Cubs, especially Tigers, and God forbid if the Lion pilot program goes national, do not have the cognitive skills to understand what they are saying in regards to the Oath. As for the Scout Law, while it may be easier to memorize the 15 words of the Law, the LotP is much more appropriate to the entire theme of Cub Scouts. As for the Sea Scout Promise and Venturing Oath, my ship growing up was not-traditional, so we didn't learn it unless we wanted to work on advancement, which most did not want to do. They just wanted to sail. My second ship used more of the traditional Sea Scout program,but that still wasn't an issue since the ship was the equivalent of a summer camp Venturing Crew comprised of staff. Now I do know of two Crews that do the Venturing promise.

Bando, Yep it's anecdotal. I didn't do any scientific studies on the matter. But it is based upon my discussions and work with folks. That CO I lost as a DE caused all sorts of problems for me as not only did I lose a pack, but also lost a potential troop as well. I and the pack leaders went scrambling to find another CO. And it hurt not only in membership, but also FOS. One of the district's biggest donors was in that unit. SP, Don't know how adamant LDS and other COs are on the topic of local option, but from my expereince some are VERY adamant in that they do not want it. Even if they can pick their own leaders, they do not want to interact with other units that do allow homosexuals as leaders. So I don't see how a separate program in the BSA will help. But then again it may over time. I know of several law enforcement Explorer posts switch COs from the police or sheriff's department to the police protective society or whatever you call it. They did that so that they could be Venturing Crews and not have to accept homosexuals as leaders. To my knowledge, they do not exist as crews today and may be Explorer posts now.

bnelon44, While they may be considered "advancement" now according to the GTA, when Venturing split from Exploring in 1998, THERE WAS NO ADVANCEMENT IN VENTURING (emphasis not shouting) except for Sea Scouts. And even then, so many Sea Scout Ships didn't use the traditional Sea Scout Advancement, that Qualified Seaman and Small Boat Handler badges came about. That was one of the major selling points for Venturing to potential COs: BSA provided a program allowed the CO a whole bunch of options that they could use or not use, i.e. uniforms, Venturing Oath, "Recognitions," camping and HA activities, etc. Additionally the use of BSA facilities, program opportunities, and insurance were other selling points. For example there was info provided at the NLTC that stated ways to approach existing youth groups, i.e. church youth groups, sports teams, etc, and sell them on the benefits of Venturing. And while Venturing was considered "traditional Scouting," with the exception of the Outdoor emphasis crews and Sea Scout Ships, Venturing really was wide open. Again it's possible to get Venturing Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards without ever going camping. The confusion is coming from pros and high up volunteers at national who do not know and understand the Venturing program, but are trying to change Venturing. They keep applying Boy Scout rational to the Venturing program, when it was designed to be a separate, stand alone program that allowed the CO and their youth to be creative in organizing what they want to be and do. Hence the 5 specialty areas, the ability to get Silver without ever going camping, etc. If I can find it, heck gotta see if I still have it, I'll post some stuff from the info given out at the 1998 NLTC on Venturing when it first came out.

Kudu, Back in the day, my troop's Leadership Corps turned into a Venture Crew once we ran out of the Leadership Corps patches. The Venture Crew was still used as a LC though. When Venturing came out and some Venture Crew, now Venture Patrol, members found out, they wanted to start working on Outdoor Bronze and Ranger. Then they found out the details, i.e. Venture Crews are now called venture patrols, and you must be a Venturer in a Venturing Crew, that specializes in one fop the 5 areas to worked on Bronze, Ranger, etc. So they formed a Crew, set bylaws which wer remarkably similar to the Leadership Corps and Venture Crew, now Patrol, policies and guidelines, etc. For them it was another tool to keep them involved in Scouting, and helping out the younger Scouts.

It wouldn't be just LDS units and members that left. Other COs would pull out as well. Families opposed to homosexuality would also leave. Trust me on this one. I had a CO decide not to renew their charter prior to the Dale Decision because they expected BSA to lose and, even though they could select their own leaders, they did not want homosexual leaders from other units interacting with their youth. Also I had parents tell me prior to and after Dale that they were glad that BSA won as they didn't want to quit Scouting. Also know of some folks join Scouting because of Dale b/c they DID think BSA allowed homosexual leaders and they didn't want that for their children.

I've also seen camp staffs create their own. Don't like any of it to be honest. I like sticking with the established colors. As for the holiday theme ones, with no disrespect to my fellow Cub Scout leaders, but I'm betting it was the CS RT Commissioner doing it. They teach doing crazy stuff like that for CS RT Commissioners.

Gnome, You are referring to Generation 1 Switchbacks, and they are pre-CUs. They actually go with the ODL shirts, and with the exception of the sizing, they are big, they were awesome. PM me with sizing info and I may be able to help you. I was told the sizing was off, and when they went on sale I bought 4 pairs, 2 of the L and 2 of the XLs. I got one set of XLs that have only been tried on. Tags still on them and everything. Also the local distributor may have some still, but they are not at the sale price I got mine for.

B, Must respectfully disagree with a few things. 1) The Venturing Recognitions, i.e. Bronze, Gold, Silver, ranger, et al were NEVER (emphasis)meant to be advancements in the sense of T-2-1-S-T-Eagle when Venturing split from Exploring in 1998. The were meant to we awards that recognized individuals. Crews didn't have to use the recognitions if they didn't want to. Heck one of the selling points for Venturing back in 1998 for us pros at the time was that BSA gave you a bunch of options that you could use or not use. There was no mandatory uniforms, no advancement, etc. 2) The Venturing Recognitions system is quite easy to understand. First you have the standard awards that all Sea Scouts and Venturers can earn. You have have a Bronze Award in which you can earn multiple times because the categories focus on different elements of Venturing Outdoors, Youth Ministries, Arts and Hobbies, Sea Scouts (Ordinary Sea Scout Rank = Sea Scout Bronze since some Ships are not advancement oriented, i.e. my old ship so they got their own), and Sports. These correspond to the five specialty areas of Venturing. Then Gold Award focuses on personal growth through goal setting. Finally Silver focuses on leadership and ethics. ASIDE, whoever wrote the info on Silver Award on the national website here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing/Awards/silver.aspx doesn't know what they are talking about. Silver Beaver is something Scouts earn?!?!?!?!? The you get the Specialty Awards. These allow a Ventuere to really focus and become an expert in an area. They are Ranger for outdoor specialty, Quest for sports, Shooting Sports, and TRUST for the religious/community specialty. The only "Ranks" or advancement in Venturing is the in Sea Scouts with Apprentice, Ordinary, Able, and Quartermaster. And someone placed QM as a specialty award, when in fact it is the highest rank in Sea Scouts, on par with Eagle (ok the requiremetns are actually tougher than Eagle IMHO ).

Interesting. I know my camp is A OK since it uses ties.

In May of 1998 was when I first heard about Venturing and bringing back the old awards. The national dir. of Venturing ticked off about 40+ new DEs when he made the comment that "The Silver Award will replace Eagle Scout as the BSA's highest award." Sad thing was, he never did mention Sea Scouts, and I bet he didn't know they exist like many pros. Luckily his replacement, Holmes, did. When all the information on Venturing became available at the National Leadership Training Conference in Aug. 1998, the material looked hastily put together, and if memory serves, my coworker, who was giving a presentation on the program, didn't get a copy of her presentation until she got there. Also info that was given out had a different color scheme for Venturing beside the green and yellow. Only uniform items available were the white Venturing patch for the shoulder and green strips to replace the Exploring BSA ones.. Most stuff didn't become available until December 1998, with shorts coming in August 1999 and pants in August 2000. One thing that kinda ticks me off today is that we were told that current Explorer leaders would be grandfathered as trained in Venturing. Which hasn't happened.

Learning for Life started out from the old "in school Scouting programs." It's intent it to bring some of Scouting's values into secular format for use by schools and other organizations, i.e. day cares, organizations with both girls and boys, etc. I admit I do not know about the current literature, but when I started 2 groups and got their materials, it is a good program. Now here's the deal with Exploring and LFL, and Emb please correct me if I am wrong. National was already looking to revamp the Explorer Program in the 1996/7 time frame. They were looking to bring back some of the older awards from before Exploring became career oriented int he late 1960s early 1970s. The a lawsuit against a CO, the Chicago PD if memory serves, forced Venturing to come out before it was ready and switch Exploring to LFL in 1998. More later

Agree with Emb, what a lodge does, and does not do, vary. My lodge is very active in the upkeep of the council's camps. This year esp. since we had severe damage at two of the camps, which still are not 100% repaired. We also raise a good bit of money to send Boy Scouts to summer camp. Also several of our members were influential in establishing OA Trail Crew at Philmont. Another lodge I was in was big into Native American culture, and had members assist with a local tribe in their efforts for the US government to honor their treaty obligations and recognition them.

As a former DE, here's my $.02 worth. 1) Very organized and has great time management skills. This can be a challenge with a DE's schedule. 2) Has great communication skills. If you do not communicate with folks, you won't know what's up, and it will become VERY frustaring to all involved. 3) Has the ability to work with and motivate others. If you haven't been to PDL-1 yet, you will hear the term "Multiply yourself," then get use to the term. Even in a small district like the one I was in, a DE cannot do it all by themselves. 4) Works well in crisis mode. At least in my district with all the problems I faced. I was constantly reminded of the olf Pro saying, " Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, when volunteers can't, the professionals must." Now to your questions. 1. Visiting unit meetings - some have said they like to see DEs there, others have said they show up invited and unwelcome...any thoughts? OH HECK NO!!!!!!!!!! You are going to be running around with ya head chopped off adn will not have the time to visit unit meetings. Unless you are there for a purpose, i.e. picking up applications, dropping off advancement, invited to the BnG or COH, etc STAY AWAY FROM UNIT MEETINGS!!!!!!!! If you want to get a pulse of the units besides what the commissioners say, visit the units at district/council activities, you'll be there anyway, and get active with the OA. True story, best "in" with volunteer leaders was when I went to an Ordeal, worked my butt off to the point that I was covered in mud, sweat, and rain with the chapter's ceremony team, and when the team got back with the rest of the chapter, havign the adviser state ' we got ourselves a real DE now!" and explain the work I was doign and the discussion I had with the ceremony team. 2. FOS - we all know it has to be done, what would a volunteer recommend to make it less stressful? Are there ways to make it better (easier for families?) If you got leaders who are experienced and/or willing to help do the presentations, let them do it. Let them set it up and help you. 3. District officers - apaprently some interaction between the DE and district officers seems "stormy", how would a volunteer approach creating the "perfect" district committee? What about improving commissioners? This is a challenging one. The situations that the volunteers have been in the past are the factors that have influenced their interactions. I came into a district with a lot of problems and a lot of troubled history. Some of that is STILL evident after 12 year since I first encountered it AND almost 30 in regards to some incidents (yes folks have long memories). Long story short, I built relationships with the folks. Heck one of the biggest "trouble makers" I was warned about and was advised to find a replacement for, turned into one of my biggest allies. Another leader with a VERY big anti council bias, and after doing some "investigating" with very good reason, turned into another ally, and again I was told to find a replacement for him. As for commissioners, I'd find some of the folks who have "been there, done that, got the patch and t-shirt" who have the KSAs to help units succeed. 4. Fundraisers - without changing the products, like popcorn, how to get people excited and involved...what would you recommend? Again every area is different. One problem is that it seem as if everyone is doing some type of door to door sales at the same time. So think outside the box on this one.

One of the troops I was involved with met on Monday nights, and it was not problem whatsoever with the unit, or the CO. We met at the Scout hut across the street from the church. Only challenge was the parking lot was emptying form the evening service when we were arriving for our meeting. But it was a minor nuisance.

In regards to the Triple Crown Award, do the now non-existant HA bases qualify? Have one guy I am trying to recruit who's been to Philmont, Maine National High Adventure Area, and Land Between the Lakes National Outdoor Adventure Center.

Lisa, Yep I know of lodges that do the Native American affairs lousy. And yes I've even cringed a time or two. As to how folks get into the OA here are the ways of the top of my head. 1) As a youth elected by member of a troop/team, and prior to the 1980s (sorry do not know the exact year) Explorer Post. Do not know if Sea Scout Ships held OA elections when Explorer Posts were allowed. 1A) ASMs between the ages of 18 and 20 are considered youth for OA purposes, can be elected if they meet the requirements, AND can vote in unit elections. 2) Adult leader 21+ with a troop/team selected by the unit committee and approved by the lodge. 3) District leaders meeting requirements (have met 1 CS leader a who was a candidate who never was with a troop due to district work). 4) Professional Scouter automatically is eligible. In regards to the last one. One council I was a volunteer in had 3 brand new DEs, and they were told they had to go to the Ordeal and become OA members. 2 backed out Friday nite and left when given the chance, while one remained. Monday morning all three were called into the SE's office, where the one Arrowman was congratulated and dismissed. Other two were fired.

H, Cub Scouter and Pack Trainer now use the Scouter Award knot, all green with khaki background, with the CS device. Me personally I HATE the devices. They are literally a pain in the chest, easily fall off and are lost. Do not know how many of them I ordered when I worked for supply. AND the Sea Scout device is now "restricted," and I have to special order via council as it is not a normally stocked item.

Emb, In response to this, And what happens when those NYLT participants (or youth staff for that matter) get older and then go thru WB? Will they feel WB is a waste of their time/money because its so much like NYLT? , I can give you one anecdote. Back when I staffed JLT, one of my staffers turned 18 after the JLT course and took WB 2 months after JLT. When I caught up with him after completing the ticket he told me, "Don't waste your time and money right now taking WB. All it is is JLT with a ticket, and I didn't learn anything new. Wait a while until you need a refresher, then take WB." Another one, when trying to organize an IOLS course one of the staffers asked what I was, referencing what WB patrol I was in, he was surprised that I hadn't taken the course as I was organizing it on par with WB.

Z, Don't bother emailing national about the mistakes, they will ignore you. Facebook is better.

C, Yep national sent out a policy prohibiting honor borders and ticked out a lot of youth too. Also set back a group of folks in my lodge trying to give new members a flap when they pass the Ordeal. Thanks to national, by laws still state 7 hours as a members to buy a flap.

I didn't question the guy as he's a good friend, and I do know how much work is involved in NYLT having staffed JLT previously. Also he did serve on WB staff a year later. That said, I personally do not like it as this is suppose to be a YOUTH organization, and there is no national recognition for the YOUTH staff who have gone through the program and are giving back. I feel if you recognize one group of staff, it should be the youth and not the adults. Further is the two programs are so alike, why not add a ticket for the NYLT participants and give them beads too?

Z, Thanks for the links. FYI they are the pre-2009 IG since they mention the yellow blouse which has been discontinued. Also if you look around the various pages, it shows the ODL uniform, makes no mention to the Centennial Uniform, i.e. color of numbers, etc. Unfortunately national has folks in supply with little to no field experience, trust me I use to work for them and you can lookat some of the catalogs that have come out, as well as other divisions. Just look at the Venturing promo video for jambo and the actress with patches all over the uniform.

Z, No disresprect intended, But would you mind posting a link to your online IG? When I look it up here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/06.aspx It still shows the ODL uniform from the pre-2009 version of the print IG. Thanks

I actually met someone who got their 3rd bead for being on NTLT staff.