Eagle92

In addition to the hat press, also get a vinyl hat cover. My first smokey got soaked before I could get a cover. I received it at my Brownsea 22 graduation and it started raining while we were packing up to leave. I use it when I am camping and there is a good chance of rain, still use the cover, but if anything happens, not to worried about the hat. It's changed colors, is warped, and has been heavily used and looks it. Now my newer smokey is in very good shape as I've kept in a press and also carry a a hat cover just in case. Looks like it did on the day it was issued to me for working JLT staff in 1994. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

Had the opportunity today to stop by the council office in the city I work in. Since it's sometimes easier to pick up things and attend stuff their, I asked about CS training since I want a refresher. So I started talking about things that I will need before my son and I join a pack and unit numbers come up. I mentioned the Red Numbers on the new uniforms for Webs and leaders and was told that it correct, despite what the literature out shows. Also told the new ICG will be out in january. Why do I think that once the last shipment of khaki and green numbers is used up, they switch back to red number for everyone?

Lem, Have you ever traveled across thsi great country of our? if you have you will notice that every region will have it's own customs and traditions in referecne to courtesy. For example when I was in TX and LA, you had people nodding hello all the time. Wher eI'm at now people actually tell you hello. Up north where I visited, people just made sure they didn't run into you. So it is with scouting. I can't quote the book sicne I don't have it in front of me, but it does have a good definition. It is HOW it is applied to your area that causes the differences. Scouting is not like team sports in which there is a definitive set of rules, coaches to mandate how things are goign to be done, and referees to observe and make sure thigns are doen according to the book. Rather scouting is a game that while it has a few things set in stone, Oath, Law, G2SS, etc, how you APPLY the program is open to what the charter organization, who actually owns the unit, and the scouts, who should be running the program interpret the Oath, law, etc. that is why there is so much variation in the program. For example I've been in 1 pack, 2 troops and 1 Ship as a youth. As an Adult I've been in 3 troops, 1 post, 1 ship, 1 crew, and 3 district committees and served as a volunteer, DE, and national council employee in a total of 4 different councils. I can't tell you how many variations of the program I've seen over the year. But are they all Scouting? YES Then Lem if you want me to throw a curve ball, let's add in all the intenational troops and Scouters I've meet: Canadian, British, Finnish, Croatian, Russian, Swiss, German, Irish, Dutch, Belgian, Japaneese, Czech, Phillipino, ad nauseum. I say that b/c I been to Canada with the Scouts,worked at two international camps in Europe, been to a world jamboree, and worked an international encampment at my old council. In scouting there are so many possibilities of doing things, that it is virtually endless. But no matter where you go in the US or the World, no matter the minor differences in the oath, and law from country to country, the purpose of scouting it character development. I think that is the difference between scouting and organized sports. Now in reference to Young Marines and JROTC, which I also have experiecnes with, oneof the key differences was the fact that while with JROTC the NCOs and officer did have some responsibilites, it was usually the SMI who determined the activieis and who was doign what. While the cadets executed the activiities, the adults did the planning. And just the opposite happens with the BSA, or at least that is how it's supposed to be done. As I stated before Lem, don't let your 30 year old notions of CS affect your view of Scouting. CS is nothing like the BS. Further the program has changed since your breif tenure as a CS.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

Every unit is different. For example, in my troop the adults were called Mr. Joe, Mr. Mike, with very few exceptions. Notably the doctor, the priest, and those gray area scouters 18-21 who grew up in the troop. I was alway addressed by my last name. Now the OA in part of the woods is a little different as we are all brothers who undergo the Ordeal. No matter if you are a 16 yo Vigil Honor member or a brand new 43 yo Ordeal member, we are all brothers. Most of us in the OA have some nickname that we use based upon something we've done with in the OA. We use those for both youth and adults ONLY at OA functions. Why do we do this. For one the OA is a youth run society, more so than many troops, and we emphasise that it is THEIR organization to run, with the adults going along for the ride and to advise when needed. For the most part these are dedicated young men who may need a little push or encouragement, but for the most part don't need alot of help. Another reason is that it emphasises the ties of brotherhood. that's on OA think you can never understand until you undergo the Ordeal, ease the burden from your brother, or kept the Vigil. And yes another reason is that some of us do enjoy being kids again. Heck when I am not in a leadership role fro an event, I am probably the biggest kid myself. I crack the jokes, do some funny stuff with the kids, etc. But the kids also know that when I need to stop soemthing, there si a reason for it and do not question it. One thing I've had commented on, and have observed since i picked up on the comment, is that some of the best leaders are not the stuffed shirt martinets that I've seen some insome leaders,. but the ones who take the time to know the youth, and sometimes act like kids again. And the Boys do pick up on it. One of the best example I nac give is a retired USMC col. who is cutting it up with the kids at OA activities. Another outstanding OA adult leader who was just recognized as suchlast week in my area is another retired Devil Dog..

I was a POACHER When I was a CS, my DC was from a troop that was not chartered by the same church as the Pack. My church's troop wasn't interested in the pack except around graduation time. needless to sat they were hurting for members, and when they heard about 30 Webelos gradutating, they were excited. Unfortunately for them out of 30 Webelos, 10 went to their DC's troop, and the other 20 quit becasue they thought that AOL was the end of the road as they had NO troop support. A few years later and a transfer to another troop, I wanted to get involved with my old Pack as a DC because I rememeber the impression my DC made on me. While I did not promote my troop, especially since it was an out of town troop, I promoted Scouting in general and some of my Webelos did join my troop, and the rest joined my old troop that I transfered from. By that point the church's troop folded. So it doesn't matter what affiliation the DC's troop has, it matters if he can do the job.

SSScout, Now now, you don't want to look like the Belgians do ya? cause that's what they do. Or at least did in 1995 when I worked with a bunch of their units.

GA, Best thing to do is get a copy of the 1970's handbook and then a copy of the 1979 handbook written by GBB. While there are some similarities, the outdoor sections of the 1979 ed. completely outdo the previous ed. Growing up I heard stories of my cousin's expereinces in scouting and got a my brother's handbook from the period. I read that book and couldn't wait to be a CS then a BS so i could do someof the things. While CS was ok, when I got into BS and got the GBB handbook, I was in complete awe at all the cool new stuff inthe book. It really got me going. It's over 25 years since I got my brother's copy of the handbook and I haven't looked back. On a side note, My oldest is pumped up to be a TC next fall. Already can't wait to camp at the local scout camp, and is pretending we are at the camp in our back yard. I gave him a copy of the 1990s HB and he has been carrying it around, looking at the photos and drawings, and asking his mom and I questions about what they are doing in the book. Already had a 30 minute discussion on some of the stuff the scouts were doing and he can't wait. If scouting is dying, then my name is Mudd.

I think part of Lem's problem is that he was involved in CS in the 1970s. So #1 he was involved in a program that didn't give you the excitement and adventure of Boy Scouts, just a taste and usually with dad. Secondly, most people will admit that the "urban" scouting of the 1970s was a dismal failure. heck that's why they brought Green Bar Bill out of retirement to write the 9th ed. of the handbook in 1979. To improve the program. So Lem really has no experience of true scouting, but opinions from 30 years ago during an acknowledged low period of Scouting. Another thing is that as the new CSE has stated in interviews already, the BSA got out of the publicity business 20+ years ago and it has hurt us. That's why the BSA is about to go on a publicity blitz for the next 2 years to celebrate our centenary. I also think some of the professionals out there have hurt us. They concentrate so much on numbers and money that they forget WHY we are here: for the youth. Let's face it we've all heard of units that exist only on paper. That really affects our growth. Personally I think Scouting is the best thing since sliced bread. My 5 yo has visited me at camp a few times. I took him camping in the backyard and he loved it. Now he keeps asking me when can he go to the local scout camp. Further he said he wants to take me camping for my birthday. (This message has been edited by eagle92)

SctDad, Yes I know exactly which district as it is my old district as a pro AND the one I volunteer in. DON"T DO IT Seriously since you have kids that are CS age, be a volunteer and enjoy it b/c as a pro you won't be able to do much with them. I don't know if they were serious or joking, but a few people approached me for the job and i said NO! Six month and counting before I can join the Blue Terror as a TC DL

I must disagree with ya LEM, it is the lawsuits that are driving the BSA nuts. Scouters do have liability insurance in the form of their membership fees. The problem is if you do not follow the G2SS, you are not covered. The G2SS was developed in response to the numerous lawsuits that have arisen. Unfortunately if you are a large organization, whether for profit or non-profit, you are a target for lawsuits. Heck even if you are a wealthy individual you are4 a target. Don't believe me, ask McDonalds, Wendy's, or even watch a few daytime commercials of lawyers advertising that "you may have a case." Some people today are looking for the quick and easy way to make money and not earn it. Hence lawsuit mania. Unfortunately I have some of those folks in my extended family, and I do not like it. While you can't do everything that you use to, there is still a lot than can be done. I've been on two 5o milers, one up in Canada, and one in the Gulf with scouting units. I've had the opportunity to go camping in the UK because of the scouts. I've been backpacking, canoeing, COPE ing, ad naseuem with the scouts. the opportunities are still there. You just have to fill out the paperwork, plan, plan, plan, and follow the guidelines. trust me there are there for a reason. A good friend of mine and an Eagle Scout did something very stupid. On a whim he decided to go hiking by himself in one of the national parks on his day off. Long story short, he only told one person what he was up to, had an accident, and was stuck in the middle of a cliff for 7 days. Luckily he had a survival kit, but he hadn't prepped for the trip fully.

Camp Salmen, Crew21 is definately right. You know my background Sweatpea since we worked camp together and served on the LEC together. I grew up and worked in a large mostly metropolitan district with a few rural communities. Being a volunteer was a lot easier because everything was within a 15 minute drive except the ocassional meeting at a rural unit. BUT when I took over my mostly rural district, and it was a small one at that, It could take me 45 minutes to get somewhere. The when you added council responsibilities, I remember having to drive 3 hours one way to attend a 1.5 hour council meeting. One of my coworkers who also lived in a rural district had to drive 5 hours one way to get to the same meeting. And since he had another meeting nearby the next morning, he ended up getting a hotel room. Rural districts DO take it out on you. As I said in the email I sent you, my mostly rural council went through 10 DEs, 1 FD, and 1 FiD in a two year period. Average length of stay for the DEs was 9 months. Three lasted less than 6 months. And you are doing this traveling and seeing minimal growth because the financial opportunities are not there. And while the potential membership growth is there, trying to recruit leaders or start up units is a challenge since you are dealing with small communities. Parents don't want to drive 30 minutes to the nearest pack or troop, and they don't have enough interest to start a troop. It can get you down when you see your coworkers in one of the few metropolitan areas (my council had 3 big cities in the 21 counties it served) just "outperform" you in membership and FOS, which is your basis for professional growth, when you are doing twice as much work to get the minimal growth. And let's not forget the personal life. Since you are gone most nites and alot of weekends it is very stressful. I had one coworker, a pro with 15 years, who was on wife #3. Two of my coworkers had their wives leave them, and my wife threatened to divorce me after 3 months of marriage. Further as a volunteer, I've seen 2 additional DEs' marriages end, including one of our camp directors. And let's not forget that your Aqautics boss in '96 also got a divorce when he was a pro. LOTS of stress. Remember what I told you Sarge said when I asked for that letter to become a DE! Not to be so negative, but you need to know what is involved. Yes you are making a difference. yes you get to work with great volunteers, whose friendships will last a life time as I've been shown. yes you will see great satisfaction as the CS you recruited and started a pack for grow up and you are invited to their ECOH (if you are still in the same district 10 years later). But the the stress is killer. As one pro told me, being a DE is a single man's job or a great second career for retired military since their wives are used to them being away. Eagle92 aka Master Yoda (This message has been edited by eagle92)

OK Now I am ticked off. Your DAC need to be FIRED because he is violating national advancement guidelines by adding requirements, the "Eagle Adviser" signature, on a service project approval. While I beleive the scout should do some things to protest this injustice, since he is obviously getting the run around and not being taken seriously, then adults need to get involved. This is the one thing I hate about some scouters, they do not take the Scouts seriously. Something I would do. 1) get a copy of the Advancement Guidelines, the book I posted a link to previously that has all the regulations on advancement at every level. Note it and use it as documentation. 2) Have Son 2 write a description of the nightmare that he has undergone. 3) Talk to all Eagles in your unit about this problem and see if they will write letters abotu the situation they encountered. 4) Talk to other SMs and ses if they are having problems. If so then get their support. 5) Talk to to CC and COR about the situation first. Show how the process is NOT following BSA Policy and that you will need their help to get the district straight, since it appears to be a district problem now. 6)Have a meeting meeting with the Key 3 (DE, District Commissioner, and District chair) talk about what is going on and how it's not following BSA policy. Present your letters of support and encourage that the process is fixed and the DAC be removed. NOTE also be prepared to take over as DAC as it's been my experience in that if you bring out problems, you are expected to fix them. 7) If you get nowhere with District key 3,take it to council. 8) If you really want skip some steps and go directly to council as the problem is that serious. the steps above is based upon my experience with one SE who didn't want to deal with things unless he absolutely had to.

professional Motto: Ashes to ashes Dust to Dust When volunteers can't The professional must

Camp Salmen, You will NOT be working with youth, but with the adults to ensure they scouts get what they need. If you are in the council I think you are in, SELAC, I thought some of those problems were solved when Willie was SE, or did Katrina cause the problems to reoccur? Now a few questions for you. 1) How much expereince do you have on a district committee? 2) How Much FOS expereince do you have? 3) What type of relationship do you have with the Volunteers in the district currently? 4) Is your wife prepared for you to be gone most evenings and some weekends? 5)Are you prepared to move around every 3-5 years as it is very unsual for a pro to stay in one palce for a long time. 6) Do you have kids still inthe program and are you prepared to not be as active with them in scouting i.e. DL, ASM, etc? PM if you like as I think I mayu be familiar with your council, and maybe even know ya. If it is SELAC, I was there when it was NOAC, and am a former pro. I also worked at Camp V-Bar for three years.

Sarge, Not a problem. heck I even said that the tan and green numbers were a mistake unless you make Blue and Gold Numbers for CS and Green and Gold numbers for Venturing. Then again I guess the CS could use the Sea Scout blue and white numbers

Technically, and this is in the ICG, a Council level scouter, district and council folks, are supposed to wear the Silver loops. Further on their left sleeve they wear a council strip, POR, trained insignia (if earned) and Arrowhead Award ( if a commissioner and earned). Unit number are not to be worn. Now is this followed by all district level folks. NO. Some only wear their unit specific uniform. Others wear their unit numbers with the district uniform, i.e. Dist. Vice chair with troop number. Me personally, as soon as I was offered a district job, I got a new shirt with all the trimmings. Everyone new what unit I was from, but I felt that by wearing the shirt, I was not showing favortism towards my unit.

I've encountered this situation only twice. In the UK a sea scout ship I briefly worked with had their own club house where they stored their equipment, conducted meetings, etc right on the beach. I believe that situation was set up as a trust or whatever the British equivalent is. I also saw one unit have their own building. Don't know if it is actually owned by the CO or the troop, but it's about 2 to 3 blocks away from the CO and was a private house at one time.

What do you mean by this, did the DAC say something and if so what? I would strongly suggest that your son contact the CAC and SE, as well as your COR about this problem as they are now violating advancement policy. Again sometimes adults don't take scouts seriously, but when a COR gets involved, things start moving.(This message has been edited by eagle92)

I think the can of worms is opening up again

YES!!!! your son has taken intiative and I like it! THAT IS LEADERSHIP! I hope this matetr gets resolved ASAP! It may be that yes he is taking it out on your son for "bypassing" the 'adviser" but as already mentioned, ther eis no such thing as and eagle adviser and once your son has the organizational signature, SM (or ASM in your case) signature and the CC's signature, then it automatically goes to the DAC. As to the committee situation, I heartily occur that some revisions need to occur on the troop committee. I don't know how other units do it, but when I went through the process, I actually presented it to the SM and CC at the same time. A few minor revisions needed to be made, but approval was given the same nite. The I tracked down the DAC for his approval. Lucky for me I was going canoeing with his unit the next day.

Chapter meetings can be boring, especially 2 hours. My chapter keeps it to 1 hour with 30 minutes extra for American Indian Affairs ( ceremony, singing, and dance teams) IF needed. If that is the problem let him run for chapter office and see fi he can bring some life to the OA. Programs can do it. At one chapter meeting, we had the local CSI officer do a presentation. We just passed out surveys and there is alot of interest in the OA High Adventure programs: OA Trail Crew at Philmont, Ocean Adventure at Sea Base, and Wilderness Adventure at Northern Tier. We're lucky in that one of the trail crew founding fathers is less than an hour away and I am goign to see if he can do a presentation for a meeting. As for what else to do, does he like doing ceremonies? How about Native American singing or dancing? the join one of their teams. Is he interested in High Adventure? there are tons to do outside of chapter meetings. A few ideas. 1) go to the lodge fellowship which is a fun and educational weekend. Plus you make friends outside the troop and chapter 2) Go to the lodge banquet. Ditto on friends. 3) GO TO CONCLAVE. A regional meeting that is Fun, Fun, FUN. 4) If possible, GO TO NOAC. This is a week long expereince that is essentialy a mini jamboree. It is a blast and I wish i could go in 2009. PM and I can go on and on and on. OH and congrats on the new Ordeal member.

Wait one minute, the Scout has the organization's to be aided approval, the SM 9 or in your case an ASM's approval since dad is SM, AND the CC's approval? The you you can go straight to teh DAC since the "adviser" works for the SM or CC, depending upon his registration. Once the "adviser's" boss signs off, i.e. SM or CC, then it goes directly to the DAC. I recommend your son contact ther DAC or CAC ASAP to expedite this process immediately. Especially if this is attempt number 7 as you stated. AT THE MOST, a project proposal should be revised ONCE. This is riduclous and I am gettign angry at the situation from reading about it. Something is not right with your troop/district if an 'adviser" presents the project proposal to the DAC since that is taking away from the leadership experience. Again I recommend your son contact ther DAC or CAC ASAP to expedite this process immediately, especially if he is about to loose his workforce.

Let me get back with you as we have a member of the lodge who uses OA and also Lodge jeopardy for training and fun. I'll see what he has as whenever he does it, I'm usually either getting dressed to dance or at the powwow.

"can't use non-Scouts" what the heck? Where is that in the project workbook? I had one Eagle who said since his church's youth group is going to benefit from the project, they should do the bulk of the work. With the exception of one or two scouts in the troop not members of his troop, everyone else was a member of the church group, and that included scouts from our troop,3 or 4 neighboring troops, and non-scouts.

Why the heck does an "adviser" present for approval the eagle project to the DAC when it is the SCOUT'S responsibility to do that? That is part of the entire process of demonstrating leadership. As for the "100% success rate, who really cares. If a scout needs some adjustments, then the DAC needs to recommend them to be inlcuded in the Life to Eagle workbook. I don't think this gentleman really knows what he is doing, despite being a former DAC. He's not following policy by letting the Scout do the bulk of the work. Instead he seems to be more interested in "success" of the project than the real objective: showing leadership. Just remember that the success or failure of the project is not the issue, but having the scout demonstrate leadership by envisioning the project, getting approval, planning, and executing with volunteers under him. My friend's project which was a complete "failure" since the desired effect didn't occur. With three weekends spent prepping for the project by building tree guards to USDA specs, and three weekends doing the actual reforestation, my friend did a lot of planning and leading with approx 40+ youth and adults. Problem was when he visited the area six month later, every sapling he and his guys planted and protected with guards, was eaten by nutria.(This message has been edited by eagle92)